"My Avantix can't excess your ticket"

[Merseysider]

On the evening of 15/3, I boarded at a station without TVMs or ticket office.

Upon arriving in Wigan, I find that both WGW and WGN ticket offices are closed. I was to make an onward journey to Liverpool.

The appropriate CDR from origin to destination is cheaper than Wigan - destination. (And yes, via Wigan is a permitted route for this journey - it has been checked on NRE).

In line with NRCoC 3, I buy an ECD from the TVM at Wigan to Bryn, as this is a ticket that entitles me to make part of the journey towards Liverpool.

I approach the conductor immediately on the train to Liverpool (before it had even left Wigan) and asked if he can issue me an ODXS fare. He says "yeah, no problem".

Five minutes later, he has succumbed and apparently "the Avantix can't really excess promotional fares like Evening Returns. I'm gonna have to sell you the ticket you want, then you're gonna have to ask for a refund for the unused ticket."

First of all; is this b******t? The Avantix is capable of issuing Evening Returns so why is it suddenly incapable of excessing them?

Secondly, I bought my ticket from a Virgin Fast Ticket machine, but travelled on a Northern train. To whom should I submit my unused Wigan - Bryn return for a refund? (Yes, I'm aware it's only £1.00 but it's the principle that matters).

Thirdly, when are Northern gonna get their act together and actually have ticketing facilities at all their stations??

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It's NOT an "over-distance" excess. The excess fare referred to as "over-distance" is actually "Over-Riding (travelling beyond the destination on the ticket)". You were not doing this.

Condition 3 refers to buying a ticket or obtaining a Permit to Travel at the origin station, not midway through your journey. If there is no facility at all, you do not have a requirement to buy a ticket until the first opportunity to buy the ticket you require for your entire journey.

I have never had cause to use an Advantix machine, but I assume they are capable of doing a Cheap Evening Return and thus are capable of doing an excess, but maybe they can't do it when the origin of travel is not where the original ticket is from.

As for questions two and three, I'd suggest Virgin Trains (as you bought the ticket from them), and, when someone is willing to pay for them.

 

[yorkie]

On the evening of 15/3, I boarded at a station without TVMs or ticket office.

Upon arriving in Wigan, I find that both WGW and WGN ticket offices are closed. I was to make an onward journey to Liverpool.

In that case I would advise buying nothing at Wigan. You were not starting your journey at Wigan. You would only buy at Wigan if the ticket you required was available.

The appropriate CDR from origin to destination is cheaper than Wigan - destination. (And yes, via Wigan is a permitted route for this journey - it has been checked on NRE).

Then you really need to be buying on the next train.

In line with NRCoC 3, I buy an ECD from the TVM at Wigan to Bryn, as this is a ticket that entitles me to make part of the journey towards Liverpool.

I do not agree that NRCoC Condition 3 requires you to buy anything from the TVM at Wigan.

I approach the conductor immediately on the train to Liverpool (before it had even left Wigan) and asked if he can issue me an ODXS fare. He says "yeah, no problem".

Five minutes later, he has succumbed and apparently "the Avantix can't really excess promotional fares like Evening Returns. I'm gonna have to sell you the ticket you want, then you're gonna have to ask for a refund for the unused ticket."

Some Train Companies do not want passengers to buy tickets to cover part of their journey. Have you asked Northern what their policy is?

First of all; is this b******t? The Avantix is capable of issuing Evening Returns so why is it suddenly incapable of excessing them?

I don't know about that.

Secondly, I bought my ticket from a Virgin Fast Ticket machine, but travelled on a Northern train. To whom should I submit my unused Wigan - Bryn return for a refund? (Yes, I'm aware it's only £1.00 but it's the principle that matters).

Thirdly, when are Northern gonna get their act together and actually have ticketing facilities at all their stations??

If you were charged the correct through fare, and refunding the Wigan-Bryn ticket would resolve the situation, I would submit it to Virgin for a refund of that ticket. But I would scan in all the tickets and write to Northern about the situation.

I guess this situation arose because you felt compelled to go beyond your responsibilities, perhaps because you've heard so many reports of Northern treating their passengers as potential criminals, rather than as customers?

 

[dave87016]

Im pretty sure that Cheap Evening Returns on Northern can be bought from the guard

 

[Sleepy]

Is the Evening return issued from Rover menu ? May print as 1 coupon, if so machine will not excess them.

 

[Hassocks5489]

Is the Evening return issued from Rover menu ? May print as 1 coupon, if so machine will not excess them.

I've looked through my collection and all examples I have are standard two-coupon tickets (OUT/RTN), so I would guess they are issued through the standard menu.

 

[Merseysider]

It's NOT an "over-distance" excess. The excess fare referred to as "over-distance" is actually "Over-Riding (travelling beyond the destination on the ticket)". You were not doing this.

Understood. I haven't got one with me right now, but I'm sure on the ticket it's printed as O/D XS or something like that.

Condition 3 refers to buying a ticket or obtaining a Permit to Travel at the origin station, not midway through your journey. If there is no facility at all, you do not have a requirement to buy a ticket until the first opportunity to buy the ticket you require for your entire journey.

Advice duly noted for next time. If no conductor comes through the train and I arrive at destination without a ticket, I do imagine there'd be a lot of hassle.

In that case I would advise buying nothing at Wigan. You were not starting your journey at Wigan. You would only buy at Wigan if the ticket you required was available.

I had a feeling walking past the TVMs would count as "opportunity to purchase" and thus by not buying anything I'd lose my entitlement to Railcard discount and make myself liable to Northern's little G4S hellhounds.

Then you really need to be buying on the next train.
I do not agree that NRCoC Condition 3 requires you to buy anything from the TVM at Wigan.

Some Train Companies do not want passengers to buy tickets to cover part of their journey. Have you asked Northern what their policy is?

I did email them a similar question as part of a complaint several weeks ago. I don't expect I'll get a straight answer off them though.

I guess this situation arose because you felt compelled to go beyond your responsibilities, perhaps because you've heard so many reports of Northern treating their passengers as potential criminals, rather than as customers?

Well yes, their 'get a ticket' campaign is full of "Make sure you purchase a ticket at the first available opportunity." I decided paying £1 for a ticket and then approaching the conductor would be a safer option than be seen on CCTV walking straight past the TVMs. In future when I make this journey I might just leave my card at home and carry cash only.

Im pretty sure that Cheap Evening Returns on Northern can be bought from the guard

You are correct. They're exactly the same as a CDR except they have restriction code FE and they say "EVENING RETURN" under ticket type. If anyone has access to an Avantix I'd be delighted to hear that it is possible to apply an excess to an Evening Return.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Understood. I haven't got one with me right now, but I'm sure on the ticket it's printed as O/D XS or something like that....

Most staff would issue it as an over-distance excess because that is the simplest way to give you the ticket you require, but it is not the only way and as your ticket was not from the origin, it makes the situation slightly more complex.

....Advice duly noted for next time. If no conductor comes through the train and I arrive at destination without a ticket, I do imagine there'd be a lot of hassle.

I had a feeling walking past the TVMs would count as "opportunity to purchase" and thus by not buying anything I'd lose my entitlement to Railcard discount and make myself liable to Northern's little G4S hellhounds....

AIUI, you cannot be given a 'failure to pay' notice when travelling from a station that has no facilities.

The TVMs only count if they are at your origin station or they can sell the ticket that you need to make your entire journey.

....I did email them a similar question as part of a complaint several weeks ago. I don't expect I'll get a straight answer off them though....

As Northern operate a 'failure to pay' scheme on some lines, I expect the official line will be something along the lines of "if there are facilities at the origin station you should buy something in line with Condition 3", but how this plays out 'on the ground' is another matter.

....Well yes, their 'get a ticket' campaign is full of "Make sure you purchase a ticket at the first available opportunity." I decided paying £1 for a ticket and then approaching the conductor would be a safer option than be seen on CCTV walking straight past the TVMs. In future when I make this journey I might just leave my card at home and carry cash only...

Tbf, most people wouldn't have bothered and that is to your credit, but what Northern mean is that you can't just travel until someone stops you (or not at all), you have a responsibility to pay for your journey as soon as you reasonably can.

 

[RJ]

The ideals behind the NRCoC are sound - a document which allows for staff and customers to sing from the same hymn sheet.

There are two ways staff can deal with a Condition 3 ticket held by a customer;

1. It can be used as part payment for the ticket(s) required by way of issuing an excess.

2. It can be non-issued (cancelled and voided) then the required tickets being issued as normal. A refund may arise if the ticket held is more expensive than the tickets required.

In practice, compliance with Condition 3 can cause more problems than it solves. The problems are created by ticket selling staff who choose not to do the excess or won't give a refund. The latter is often down to an unwillingness to write a single sentence report to explain why they did it. Some ticketing staff put this into the "too much like hard work" pile, along with actually opening the NRCoC and reading the bits that are relevant to their everyday duties. If TOCs ensured their staff appreciated the relevance of the NRCoC, it would help matters no end.

By the same token, I imagine that few, if any staff will ask a customer why they didn't pay a part fare under the circumstances. Some passengers unwittingly follow Condition 3 which is great, but is a primary cause of non-issues at ticket offices. I get heaps of them from customers who have gone to a machine at their origin, paid the full fare for their journey then come straight to me for a refund so they can get their Groupsave 4 discount. I will do it without any quibble and thank them for paying up front.

As a passenger, I comply with Condition 3 - but only if I can find a ticket that's cheaper than the cheapest one I wish to buy for my journey. For reasons stated above, if there isn't a cheaper ticket available then I won't bother. I've had varying reactions for complying with Condition 3;

- Some guards do the correct thing and issue the ticket(s) I wished to buy, minus the cost of the part fare I already paid for.

- Several guards have disregarded the part fare as a fare evasion attempt and try to get me to pay the full fare instead of the ticket I wanted to buy. A stalemate then occurs which invariably involves me not handing over a penny more than what Condition 3 allows for. Some of them wouldn't take the part fare into consideration when issuing another ticket, so I didn't pay them anything.

- A guard said I was only entitled to choose which ticket I wanted to buy if I travelled at a time of day the ticket office was open. She refused to issue the ticket I wanted and I ended up with a UFN for the full fare, which ultimately got cancelled.

- A guard was skeptical about the existence of Condition 3, so called for an RPI to meet the train at my destination. I then had to stand up there and teach the both of them about it from scratch. The part fare was refunded and I was issued with the required tickets.

- A guard disregarded the part fare as a fare evasion attempt and tried to sell me a new full fare ticket. He eventually came around to selling the tickets I wanted. However, when he realised how complex the transaction was going to be, he gave up in frustration and permitted me to complete the 110 mile journey with just the 2 mile part fare I paid.

- A guard asked why I bothered buying a ticket for part of the journey as he would have just sold me one. An innocent enough question but nowadays, with prosecutions for minor infringments being in fashion and ticket availability varying on a train by train basis, a passenger ought to cover themselves. Some trains you get on are DOO with RPIs ready to PF or MG. Some have guards which will offer the full range of tickets, whilst others will work to rule and only offer full fares. Some have a mix of the above (RPIs with PF pads often show up on EMT's express services.) Sometimes all on the same line, like the London to Brighton corridor. A passenger isn't to know which they will encounter so should play it safe.

A customer should never be out of pocket or subjected to the hassle of chasing a refund as a result of a member of staff making a decision not to follow the correct procedure.

 

[Starmill]

Every single time I have tried to comply with Conditon 3 I have been told quite categorically by the Virgin ticket office at Manchester Piccadilly that it is my own fault for buying an unnecessary ticket and they will NOT reduce the price of the desired ticket by the price already paid. Ironically enough, in all cases the condition 3 part-payment was made to the guard!

KILL ME NOW.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A customer should never be out of pocket or subjected to the hassle of chasing a refund as a result of a member of staff making a decision not to follow the correct procedure.

I tried to start charging Northern admin fees for my time and the interest on my cash that they were effectively stealing from me while I was chasing said refunds, in addition to the cost of paper and envelope to post them the ticket with a covering letter.

Guess how far I got?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Every single time I have tried to comply with Conditon 3 I have been told quite categorically by the Virgin ticket office at Manchester Piccadilly that it is my own fault for buying an unnecessary ticket and they will NOT reduce the price of the desired ticket by the price already paid. Ironically enough, in all cases the condition 3 part-payment was made to the guard!

KILL ME NOW....

To be fair, if you bought the ticket from the guard on the train, they were quite correct. There is a high probability that in most cases the guard could sell you the ticket you require, however, in circumstances where they can't there is no requirement in the NRCoC to buy a different ticket from them. Condition 3 applies at the station where you begin your journey.

 

[Starmill]

To be fair, if you bought the ticket from the guard on the train, they were quite correct. There is a high probability that in most cases the guard could sell you the ticket you require, however, in circumstances where they can't there is no requirement in the NRCoC to buy a different ticket from them. Condition 3 applies at the station where you begin your journey.

I'd like to hear what approach you'd advocate where the guard will not sell you your desired ticket (or in the very limited number of cases can not), but will also not allow you to continue (1 stop) into Manchester without a buying a ticket to there - or they will allow you to do so, but tell you you will only have to wait in the queue for somebody from G4S to issue you with a single (that will then not be part-exchanged). I also twice had the situation where the guard did not accept one of my means of payment (an RTV) which meant I was short of the fare I wanted. On one of those occasions, I was again sold the cheap single to Manchester for part of my journey because I had enough cash to cover that.

Or do you just think they reserve this level of treatment for me, or try to spite me for asking for something different to what most people want (a return from wherever they got on to Manchester)?

This is far less of an issue now because it's easier for me to avoid guards.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I can't say what you experience as I am probably not there at the time, though if you know it to be wrong you can always make a complaint about it, more so if you believe you are being singled out by the guards.

If a guard refused to allow me to buy the ticket I needed, but demanded I pay for a different one, I'd remind them of my obligations in regard to the NRCoC. If the guard wanted to remind me that I'd only end up in a queue for G4S, I'd thank them for their concern.

A guard refusing to accept an RTV is something that should be reported to the TOC concerned.

 

[Starmill]

I can't say what you experience as I am probably not there at the time, though if you know it to be wrong you can always make a complaint about it, more so if you believe you are being singled out by the guards.

If a guard refused to allow me to buy the ticket I needed, but demanded I pay for a different one, I'd remind them of my obligations in regard to the NRCoC. If the guard wanted to remind me that I'd only end up in a queue for G4S, I'd thank them for their concern.

A guard refusing to accept an RTV is something that should be reported to the TOC concerned.

If I really thought I was being singled out I'd be considering calling the police, not the train company.

Do you have any clues as to what the efficacy of Northern's complaint's handling procedure is like? What do you think I do every time it happens! And what do you do on reaching the front of the G4S queue to be faced with exactly the same situation?

The declined RTV subsequently expired and was re-issued by Northern's customer relations with the promise that some relevant manager was going to 'remind' staff about RTV acceptance. Next time I tried to use one, it was again refused.

 

[34D]

Next time I tried to use one, it was again refused.

I've never been refused use of one (on board trains or at a ticket office).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Do you have any clues as to what the efficacy of Northern's complaint's handling procedure is like?....

Never had to use it myself, I only ever hear about other peoples experiences and given that I believe the number of complaints made is not equal to those I hear about (by some margin), I can only conclude that in most cases it is quite reasonable. YMMV.

....And what do you do on reaching the front of the G4S queue to be faced with exactly the same situation? ....

Same again, get escorted to the ticket office, buy ticket, show G4S staff and move on. Can't say I have experienced Piccadilly's staff, but at Vic they are usually quite accommodating when they can't sell the ticket.

 

[Starmill]

I've never been refused use of one (on board trains or at a ticket office).

Good for you!

 

[Drsatan]

Good for you!

I had an experience where the booking clerk at my local station (operated by FGW), said he couldn't accept an RTV issued by ATW as it wouldn't scan. He then stated he couldn't type the details in manually.

I tweeted FGW about this whose response was that the clerk was in the wrong. As the clerk concerned is normally very helpful I put it down to lack of staff training rather than him being lazy.

ATW's response, when I contacted them, wasn't exactly helpful either. The reply was that ATW could only issue a replacement RTV rather than a cheque. Surely the TOC should issue a cheque when requested?

 

[Merseysider]

A customer should never be out of pocket or subjected to the hassle of chasing a refund as a result of a member of staff making a decision not to follow the correct procedure.

I've found that many staff have differing opinions of what the 'correct procedure' is; I've even had one member of staff tell me that if the boarding station doesn't have facilities then I should have bought my ticket from a station 300m away that does have facilities. Madness.

Do you have any clues as to what the efficacy of Northern's complaint's handling procedure is like?

Quite frankly, it's crap. Granted, they must get complaints in their hundreds daily but a reply within a month would be considered rather lucky.

 

[Starmill]

Quite frankly, it's crap. Granted, they must get complaints in their hundreds daily but a reply within a month would be considered rather lucky.

I view a complaint as an opportunity to get something fixed (unless I have been really hard done by). And I tell you I have pointed out to Northern they have a lot of fixing to do. I'd be surprised if a word of it ever goes beyond the Customer Relations department.

 

[Merseysider]

I view a complaint as an opportunity to get something fixed (unless I have been really hard done by). And I tell you I have pointed out to Northern they have a lot of fixing to do. I'd be surprised if a word of it ever goes beyond the Customer Relations department.

Every so often they run these "Ask Northern" events or whatever they label it as; it's basically an opportunity to talk to high-ranking Northern employees. There's one on March 24 with their Service Delivery Director. Probably mine and thine best chance of getting things fixed.