Multiple Travel Incident Report

[Holt123]

Around 2 years ago, I was issued a travel incident report from northern rail for something completely valid, and I paid the fine.

Today, I’ve been issued a second but for something I hope I can turn around.

I was travelling back from Leeds to Manchester with a group from university. Our tutor had all of our tickets on his phone (Leeds to Manchester Piccadilly), but I decided to get off 2 stops earlier (Manchester Victoria). I took a picture of my tutor’s phone which showed my ticket but it wasn’t accepted and they wrote up a travel report. I’m hoping that, with evidence from my tutor, they may disregard this report. Thoughts?

Secondly, are the results likely to be worse because I’ve had a previous report?

I’m feeling very anxious about the situation, so any advice would be much appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Watershed]

Around 2 years ago, I was issued a travel incident report from northern rail for something completely valid, and I paid the fine.

When you say "something completely valid*, do you mean you were caught red-handed, as it were, or that your ticket was actually completely valid but you were nevertheless issued with a TIR?

Today, I’ve been issued a second but for something I hope I can turn around.

I was travelling back from Leeds to Manchester with a group from university. Our tutor had all of our tickets on his phone (Leeds to Manchester Piccadilly), but I decided to get off 2 stops earlier (Manchester Victoria). I took a picture of my tutor’s phone which showed my ticket but it wasn’t accepted and they wrote up a travel report. I’m hoping that, with evidence from my tutor, they may disregard this report. Thoughts?

When you say you took a picture, what kind of ticket did you hold? Was it a paper ticket or an e-ticket?

If the former, then I'm sure you can appreciate that pictures of tickets (particularly flexible tickets) aren't and can't be accepted as you could simply share any number of copies and there would be no way of anyone knowing that it had just been used once.

If the latter, then provided all the details were visible (to/from, date etc.) and the barcode could be scanned, there is no reason this shouldn't have been accepted. There is no requirement to present e-tickets in any one format; you can show them in an app, as a PDF on a digital device or printed on paper, or even as a screenshot or picture of a PDF. The key thing is that the barcode makes it possible to easily see where and when the ticket has been used, so reuse is very easy to detect.

Secondly, are the results likely to be worse because I’ve had a previous report?

Maybe. I think it's unlikely that they would have deleted details of the original incident 2 years down the line. That being said, they might not consider it - or it might not make any difference in their decision as to how to deal with this case.

Ultimately, you can't really change what's happened. The only thing you can do now is to make sure that you're not involved in any more irregularities, and to try and see if they will offer an out of court settlement if you are indeed in the wrong - as seems likely.

 

[Holt123]

When you say "something completely valid*, do you mean you were caught red-handed, as it were, or that your ticket was actually completely valid but you were nevertheless issued with a TIR?


When you say you took a picture, what kind of ticket did you hold? Was it a paper ticket or an e-ticket?

If the former, then I'm sure you can appreciate that pictures of tickets (particularly flexible tickets) aren't and can't be accepted as you could simply share any number of copies and there would be no way of anyone knowing that it had just been used once.

If the latter, then provided all the details were visible (to/from, date etc.) and the barcode could be scanned, there is no reason this shouldn't have been accepted. There is no requirement to present e-tickets in any one format; you can show them in an app, as a PDF on a digital device or printed on paper, or even as a screenshot or picture of a PDF. The key thing is that the barcode makes it possible to easily see where and when the ticket has been used, so reuse is very easy to detect.


Maybe. I think it's unlikely that they would have deleted details of the original incident 2 years down the line. That being said, they might not consider it - or it might not make any difference in their decision as to how to deal with this case.

Ultimately, you can't really change what's happened. The only thing you can do now is to make sure that you're not involved in any more irregularities, and to try and see if they will offer an out of court settlement if you are indeed in the wrong - as seems likely.

The previous incident involved me travelling with an invalid railcard — I didn’t realise it was invalid but the report was obviously justified.

I took a picture of my tutor’s phone which showed the barcode and all the dates. Not a screenshot so perhaps the image quality wasn’t good enough?

I don’t know if I’m being ignorant, but I’m quite confident I’m not in the wrong as I did travel with a valid ticket that was checked at Leeds station. I was just unable to provide it at the exiting station. Hopefully, with CCTV evidence of me passing through the barriers at Leeds and my tutor’s records of the purchased tickets, I can successfully appeal any action against me.

 

[AlterEgo]

I don’t know if I’m being ignorant, but I’m quite confident I’m not in the wrong as I did travel with a valid ticket that was checked at Leeds station. I was just unable to provide it at the exiting station.

I’m afraid that definitely does put you in the wrong. You have to provide a valid ticket for inspection on demand, and you didn’t.

A photo of a ticket isn’t a ticket (how do they know it’s not being used elsewhere?) and they were within their rights to report you.

It’s best to wait now until you get correspondence from them and we will be able to advise further when it arrives.

 

[Watershed]

The previous incident involved me travelling with an invalid railcard — I didn’t realise it was invalid but the report was obviously justified.

Fair enough. Obviously this doesn't go in your favour, but as I said, no point worrying about it now.

I took a picture of my tutor’s phone which showed the barcode and all the dates. Not a screenshot so perhaps the image quality wasn’t good enough?

Presumably you had a problem scanning it ar the barriers then? Or were you proactively or otherwise pulled over for a manual check? Was the member of staff able to scan the barcode in your picture?

I don’t know if I’m being ignorant, but I’m quite confident I’m not in the wrong as I did travel with a valid ticket that was checked at Leeds station. I was just unable to provide it at the exiting station. Hopefully, with CCTV evidence of me passing through the barriers at Leeds and my tutor’s records of the purchased tickets, I can successfully appeal any action against me.

Unfortunately it is an offence to fail to present a ticket for inspection, if you had the opportunity to buy a ticket before starting your journey, under Byelaw 18(2) of the Railway Byelaws 2005.

Having a valid ticket upon boarding merely means that there is no offence committed under Byelaw 18(1) (boarding a train without a valid ticket) or section 5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (travelling without previously having paid your fare, with intent to avoid payment thereof). It doesn't nullify an offence under Byelaw 18(2).

As such, whilst in a sensible world you would present evidence of your ticket and the matter would then be dropped with no more than words of warning - unfortunately, that's not the world we live in and the train operators have the ability and procedures in place to conduct private prosecutions of these minor offences.

Accordingly, unless your ticket was able to be scanned, you're going to be best off trying to grovel for an out of Court settlement (others will be able to advise on the wording of what you send in response to their letter).

If you are offered a settlement, it will likely be for around £80-100, plus the cost of the undiscounted Anytime Single fare (as if you hadn't held a ticket at all). Yes, it's utterly disproportionate, but that's the way the system works.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Nov 2022 ==

A photo of a ticket isn’t a ticket (how do they know it’s not being used elsewhere?)

There is nothing wrong with providing reproductions of e-tickets. The fact that there's a scan database makes it very easy to see that it hasn't been used elsewhere (or if it has, the holder has had exceptional luck in not having it scanned anywhere!).

The issue arises if the barcode could not be scanned as this then prevents the scan history from being accessible.

 

[gray1404]

But even if an e-ticket will not scan there are methods in place to still be able to access the ticket and check it.

 

[skyhigh]

But even if an e-ticket will not scan there are methods in place to still be able to access the ticket and check it.

Such as? As far I'm aware, Northern guards have no way other than scanning to verify an Aztec code, so I assume the same applies to RPOs.

 

[Holt123]

Fair enough. Obviously this doesn't go in your favour, but as I said, no point worrying about it now.


Presumably you had a problem scanning it ar the barriers then? Or were you proactively or otherwise pulled over for a manual check? Was the member of staff able to scan the barcode in your picture?


Unfortunately it is an offence to fail to present a ticket for inspection, if you had the opportunity to buy a ticket before starting your journey, under Byelaw 18(2) of the Railway Byelaws 2005.

Having a valid ticket upon boarding merely means that there is no offence committed under Byelaw 18(1) (boarding a train without a valid ticket) or section 5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (travelling without previously having paid your fare, with intent to avoid payment thereof). It doesn't nullify an offence under Byelaw 18(2).

As such, whilst in a sensible world you would present evidence of your ticket and the matter would then be dropped with no more than words of warning - unfortunately, that's not the world we live in and the train operators have the ability and procedures in place to conduct private prosecutions of these minor offences.

Accordingly, unless your ticket was able to be scanned, you're going to be best off trying to grovel for an out of Court settlement (others will be able to advise on the wording of what you send in response to their letter).

If you are offered a settlement, it will likely be for around £80-100, plus the cost of the undiscounted Anytime Single fare (as if you hadn't held a ticket at all). Yes, it's utterly disproportionate, but that's the way the system works.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Nov 2022 ==


There is nothing wrong with providing reproductions of e-tickets. The fact that there's a scan database makes it very easy to see that it hasn't been used elsewhere (or if it has, the holder has had exceptional luck in not having it scanned anywhere!).

The issue arises if the barcode could not be scanned as this then prevents the scan history from being

There was no attempt made to scan the ticket. I still don’t know if it could’ve been scanned.

 

[gray1404]

Such as? As far I'm aware, Northern guards have no way other than scanning to verify an Aztec code, so I assume the same applies to RPOs.

I'm sure I remember reading on here a member of rail staff describing how the database can still be accessed and a manual scan inputted. Basically for such an event that a ticket won't scan. But it was so long ago I could not begin to think how I'd find that thread.

 

[WesternLancer]

The previous incident involved me travelling with an invalid railcard — I didn’t realise it was invalid but the report was obviously justified.

I took a picture of my tutor’s phone which showed the barcode and all the dates. Not a screenshot so perhaps the image quality wasn’t good enough?

I don’t know if I’m being ignorant, but I’m quite confident I’m not in the wrong as I did travel with a valid ticket that was checked at Leeds station. I was just unable to provide it at the exiting station. Hopefully, with CCTV evidence of me passing through the barriers at Leeds and my tutor’s records of the purchased tickets, I can successfully appeal any action against me.

No one is going to bother to look at CCTV for this - so if you want to try and use CCTV in your own defense it will be up to you to submit a formal request of any CCTV that shows you on it and hope you then get it for future use.

It's unfortunate but the only valid way that I can see that you could have done what you did was if your tutor had obtained separate paper tickets and handed them over to each of you on the trip, so you could exit where you wished under break of journey rules. Or bought separate e-tickets and forwarded a different one to each student.

You will need to respond to the railway in due course and make it clear that they have not lost out on any money due to the situation that occurred.

My view (morally) is that your tutor should have read the ticket conditions and advised you not to photograph the ticket for the purposes of existing the station separately to the rest of the group - but unless they were teaching a degree in UK rail ticketing (which is so complicated it probably could not be offered at undergraduate level anyway ) I doubt the tutor would have thought there was anything nonsensical about what you wanted to do.

This is all v bad luck.

head back here for help as and when you need it on this.

 

[Holt123]

Thanks a lot to everyone who’s taken the time to respond. The more you know!

I’ll revisit this thread if I need some more help when my letter comes through. Thanks again!

 

[furlong]

Can we start by finding out what the ticket actually said on it?
What type of ticket was it? A normal e-ticket which is itself just a picture and should be fine to use in any format as long as all the information is there including a scannable 2-D bar code? Was it discounted in any way - what price did it show on it? If it was a PDF, even when you had the problem, you could have contacted the tutor and asked for copy of the PDF to be sent to you on the spot.
Perhaps you could attach a copy of the photograph you have, first blacking out the 2-D barcode and any reference numbers shown on it.

 

[DeverseSam]

Two issues arise from tbe northern T&Cs below.

Groups have to travel together.
Advance tickets have to be used to the correct station

Direct & Youth Groups
Group bookings are classed as 10 passengers or more and are available on Northern services only. Groups Discount may only be applied on Northern advance tickets, subject to availability.
Available for travel on Northern services only.
Northern trains are non-reservable and as such cannot guarantee that the group will be sat together.
Travel can be provisionally booked 52 weeks prior to departure for groups of 10 or more passengers travelling together on the same service.

 

[furlong]

Two issues arise from tbe northern T&Cs below.

Let's wait to find out what the tickets actually were.
I assumed the journey described was more likely to be TPE, which has a 3-9 person offering.

 

[some bloke]

I’m feeling very anxious about the situation

Perhaps the student union or university welfare services would give advice - you're unlikely to be the first student worried about legal trouble.

I took a picture of my tutor’s phone

Does that mean the tutor gave you the impression it was allowed, and does it seem suitable to talk with them about your worries?

In addition to the question of whether the specific ticket allowed it, there are also the questions of whether you thought or were led to believe it did.

Remember that if the company want to allege intent to avoid a fare, the standard is "beyond reasonable doubt". It doesn't seem to me implausible that a passenger in a group would think what you did was OK (though of course there may be other relevant detail) and having an expired railcard two years ago doesn't do much to put it beyond reasonable doubt.

 

[Watershed]

There was no attempt made to scan the ticket. I still don’t know if it could’ve been scanned.

So what happened at the barriers then? I think we are still missing a bit of the story here - did you try and use the picture you'd taken to get through the barriers? What happened when you showed the picture to the member of staff?

Was this some kind of group ticket, or an Advance ticket? Or simply a load of walk-up tickets?

 

[WesternLancer]

Perhaps the student union or university welfare services would give advice - you're unlikely to be the first student worried about legal trouble.


Does that mean the tutor gave you the impression it was allowed, and does it seem suitable to talk with them about your worries?

In addition to the question of whether the specific ticket allowed it, there are also the questions of whether you thought or were led to believe it did.

Remember that if the company want to allege intent to avoid a fare, the standard is "beyond reasonable doubt". It doesn't seem to me implausible that a passenger in a group would think what you did was OK (though of course there may be other relevant detail) and having an expired railcard two years ago doesn't do much to put it beyond reasonable doubt.

It would certainly be a good idea to chat to the tutor - if only so they knew that in future if they are taking any trips with student groups to warn them they needed to stick 'with the ticket' - esp if it was group ticket type of purchase - which seems likely.

 

[Haywain]

There was no attempt made to scan the ticket. I still don’t know if it could’ve been scanned.

Was the picture of the barcode and nothing else? An eTicket should also contain text so that it can be read by staff without a scanner. If you were unable to display that it would be fairly clear that you didn't have a valid ticket.

 

[Holt123]

This is the picture I showed them. I didn’t attempt to go through barriers — I just went straight to the ticket officer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2022 ==

This is the picture I showed them. I didn’t attempt to go through barriers — I just went straight to the ticket officer.

And when the ticket officer viewed it, they said it wasn’t valid because ‘anyone could have that picture’. They didn’t try to scan or identify it.

 

[Watershed]

This is the picture I showed them. I didn’t attempt to go through barriers — I just went straight to the ticket officer.

Did you also have a picture of the 'ticket' tab on the app? If not, then the picture is unlikely to constitute a ticket.

And in any event, this looks like it's an m-ticket rather than an e-ticket. The difference is that an m-ticket is tied to the device and app where it's been downloaded and acitvated, whereas an e-ticket is device agnostic and can be shown in multiple formats and on multiple devices. A picture of an m-ticket isn't valid; a picture of an e-ticket (provided all details are visible) is.

The key test for whether it's an e-ticket or m-ticket is whether you receive a PDF in your booking confirmation. If yes, it's an e-ticket. If no, then it's probably an m-ticket. So you might like to ask the lecturer which was the case.

If it was a GroupSave discounted ticket, then the splitting up of the group would also make the ticket invalid.

 

[Haywain]

And in any event, this looks like it's an m-ticket rather than an e-ticket.

I think that's an absolute certainty - the words 'Ticket active' would only appear on an m-ticket. Unless Northern are doing some sort of hideous hybrid, but if they were the OP would have needed the pdf version.

 

[WesternLancer]

This is the picture I showed them. I didn’t attempt to go through barriers — I just went straight to the ticket officer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2022 ==


And when the ticket officer viewed it, they said it wasn’t valid because ‘anyone could have that picture’. They didn’t try to scan or identify it.

I think unfortunately it looks like you tried to exit the barrier without what the railway (Northern Trains?) would consider a valid ticket. As I say this is very bad luck but I'm sure you can see it from their point of view.

I think you are probably going to have to wait to hear from them and then reply accordingly - and attempt to explain what will happen and hope they will accept the explanation, but they will no doubt still want some money which is a shame as of course the fare was paid.

People here will help you with the draft of your reply when you hear from them so head back here.

What I think you need to do now is

1. - make sure you can obtain physical post from the address you gave them and watch out for it (if it is student halls etc or you are away over Christmas break you need to be able to access post as you will only have 14 days to reply to any letter you get - with luck you will get this before the end of term
2. - ask your tutor for a copy of the ticket / pdf / print out / receipt etc - anything they can give you (you will need to send a copy of that stuff when you write back to the railway company so try to get now off the tutor
3. - explain to the tutor what happened. It's great they take groups of students out ref courses and use public transport - but they may benefit from knowing about potential problems that can occur with the tickets they are buying, so they can advise other students in future.
4. - see if your student union welfare office can help with responding to whatever Norther Trains (I assume) send you / accuse you of
5. - you will likely get a letter from Northern that will basically say along lines of: you were stopped and were unable to show a valid ticket / we are considering prosecuting you for being unable to show a valid ticket / what is your side of the story. It is this letter you need to watch out for and respond to, otherwise it may escalate to court action and that will be much harder and costlier to get sorted out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is the picture I showed them. I didn’t attempt to go through barriers — I just went straight to the ticket officer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2022 ==


And when the ticket officer viewed it, they said it wasn’t valid because ‘anyone could have that picture’. They didn’t try to scan or identify it.

Right. That's an m-ticket, not an e-ticket, and must be shown on the phone it was downloaded to. A scan is definitely not accepted. Thus you did not have a valid ticket and will need to engage with the process accordingly.

Were it an e-ticket I would think Northern were in the wrong, at least morally.

M-tickets really need to be discontinued.

 

[Holt123]

Hi everyone! It’s with great relief that I tell you they closed this case. I called the relevant department and they recognised the ticket wasn’t valid but kindly dismissed it as an honest mistake.

Thanks again for all of your help!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hi everyone! It’s with great relief that I tell you they closed this case. I called the relevant department and they recognised the ticket wasn’t valid but kindly dismissed it as an honest mistake.

Thanks again for all of your help!

Great news.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi everyone! It’s with great relief that I tell you they closed this case. I called the relevant department and they recognised the ticket wasn’t valid but kindly dismissed it as an honest mistake.

Thanks again for all of your help!

Excellent outcome - well done on your discussion skills with them - this could have resulted in a lot of unneeded hassle for you - well done too to whoever at the train company made the judgment call on this one.

Thanks for the update and good luck with your studies.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi everyone! It’s with great relief that I tell you they closed this case. I called the relevant department and they recognised the ticket wasn’t valid but kindly dismissed it as an honest mistake.

Thanks again for all of your help!

Thanks for updating us and it is good to know Northern can be reasonable sometimes!

 

[30907]

Excellent news.

But you should still tell the tutor concerned what happened.

 

[Holt123]

Excellent news.

But you should still tell the tutor concerned what happened.

I let him know today.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Such as? As far I'm aware, Northern guards have no way other than scanning to verify an Aztec code, so I assume the same applies to RPOs.

A quick call to someone like me and i can check the UTN