Multiple ticket checks on the same train

[SimplyLlama]

Recently travelled on a Northern train where when I boarded the train my ticket was inspected by what I assume to be an inspector, then in between stations (about 5 minutes later) who I assumed to be the guard came and checked my ticket again. Is this normal on northern trains to have multiple members of staff checking tickets 5 minutes after each other? If so, surely there is a better place for this extra staff member to be?

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

I've had my ticket checked four times by the same guard on one of Greater Anglia's London Liverpool Street to Norwich services. I didn't say anything (as it was just easier to show my ticket which was on the table), but found it mildly amusing afterwards.

I suspect they were just working on autopilot and had forgotten who they'd checked already. I, personally, am terrible with remembering faces of people I've just spoken to, so very much understand this.

 

[AlterEgo]

Recently travelled on a Northern train where when I boarded the train my ticket was inspected by what I assume to be an inspector, then in between stations (about 5 minutes later) who I assumed to be the guard came and checked my ticket again. Is this normal on northern trains to have multiple members of staff checking tickets 5 minutes after each other? If so, surely there is a better place for this extra staff member to be?

The extra staff member here was probably a Revenue Protection Inspector. They conduct roving checks and have additional responsibilities (like reporting for prosecution/penalty fares) over the conductor.

 

[SimplyLlama]

The extra staff member here was probably a Revenue Protection Inspector. They conduct roving checks and have additional responsibilities (like reporting for prosecution/penalty fares) over the conductor.

But would the conductor need to also check tickets after the revenue inspector already has?

 

[AlterEgo]

But would the conductor need to also check tickets after the revenue inspector already has?

They’ll be getting their scans in I suppose. Good for the stats which they’re monitored on, and I’m unsure if they get 2p a scan.

 

[skyhigh]

The extra staff member here was probably a Revenue Protection Inspector. They conduct roving checks and have additional responsibilities (like reporting for prosecution/penalty fares) over the conductor.

RPIs on Northern usually work in pairs because they aren't permitted to issue Penalty Fares when working alone. It's more likely that both checks were done by RPIs with the second being unaware that the first has already checked the passenger.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Today I took over a train halfway through it’s journey and did a full ticket check to which one less than amused first class passenger complained they’d already had their ticket checked. I just said new guard so I’m doing a full check! You can never be too safe

 

[Noseygit]

Today I took over a train halfway through it’s journey and did a full ticket check to which one less than amused first class passenger complained they’d already had their ticket checked. I just said new guard so I’m doing a full check! You can never be too safe

A ticket can be checked countless times by any authorised person and I usually state over Pa that due to a change of traincrew a full ticket check will be carried out if you don’t want to be disturbed place your ticket on the table ready for inspection

 

[redreni]

I've had my ticket checked four times by the same guard on one of Greater Anglia's London Liverpool Street to Norwich services. I didn't say anything (as it was just easier to show my ticket which was on the table), but found it mildly amusing afterwards.

I suspect they were just working on autopilot and had forgotten who they'd checked already. I, personally, am terrible with remembering faces of people I've just spoken to, so very much understand this.

I used to test this.

When I lived in Leicester I'd get the London train a couple of times a month. The guard would come through and say "tickets from Leicester" or "tickets from Loughborough and Leicester". Those who had already had their tickets checked would not get their tickets out again and the guard would pass them by. So I took to doing the same, even though my ticket had not been checked, just to see if the guard would think 'I don't remember this bloke' and ask to see my ticket. They never, ever did. Not even once.

So I can understand the policy of checking every ticket every time, because they can't possibly remember. Those who believe they can are almost certainly mistaken.

 

[urbophile]

I travelled from Liverpool to Euston and back last week and my ticket was not checked in either direction. Admittedly on return it was checked at the Euston barrier, but not so at Lime Street. It seems overkill to have multiple checks on short local journeys, and strange not to check tickets at least once on a journey where most fares would cost ten times or more the average fare on a local service. Different company policy I suppose, but roll on re-integration.

 

[1D54]

When I lived in Leicester I'd get the London train a couple of times a month. The guard would come through and say "tickets from Leicester" or "tickets from Loughborough and Leicester". Those who had already had their tickets checked would not get their tickets out again and the guard would pass them by. So I took to doing the same, even though my ticket had not been checked, just to see if the guard would think 'I don't remember this bloke' and ask to see my ticket. They never, ever did. Not even once.

Do this on every journey i take and have been for more years than i care to remember. Some may say it is wrong but i always travel with a valid ticket so i see no harm in it.

 

[Alfonso]

Personally, I think the more checks the better. While it may cause me a very small inconvenience, I feel safer with more staff visibility, and I guess but have no hard data to show it probably discourages more casual fare dodging if there is a perception that you are likely to have your ticket checked. I'm sure there are some people that are never deterred from fare dodging but that's no reason not to check tickets. It does of course also help the odd person that's going the wrong way, can be reminded to alight from the front x carriages etc

 

[flythetube]

A ticket could be checked and valid at the time / location of an initial check but the customer could have issues at the tine / location of a 2nd check on the same train.

Undertaking a Ticketless Traveller Survey I once encountered a female just beyond Taunton.

First question is always to establish the customers journey (start and end point) regardless of the ticket which they may or may not hold. This is to find out the complete journey being made.

She said she had started at Paddington and was going to Plymouth.

Next question is to ask to see the ticket(s) held for that journey.

She produced a ticket valid from Paddington to Taunton.

Next question is to ask if she has any ticket to cover her journey between Taunton and Plymouth as we are past Taunton now.

She became very uppity and said I’ve had my ticket checked already and why is it being checked again!!

She performed the pat down multiple pockets and rummage through handbag routine until she conceded that she didn’t have a ticket for her section of journey between Taunton and Plymouth !!

So I fetched the Train Manager and she had to stump up for her travel between Taunton and Plymouth.

Since on board staff only check what’s on the ticket and providing the time / location are within what’s on the ticket then subject to other requirements such as Railcards or Peak / Off Peak or Operator specific validity etc then the ticket will be valid.

Only subsequent ticket checks will discover outside the end destination on the customers ticket would discover the over-riding or instances of short faring / doughnutting etc.

On board staff do not establish the customers exact travel intentions at the point of checking tickets by asking what journey are you making with us today and then asking to see the ticket !!

So missed revenue collection opportunities here but appreciate this is an extra step which slows down checking plus dependent on service and location and having to do doors and safety at frequent close together stops may make that difficult.

 

[akm]

Undertaking a Ticketless Traveller Survey I once encountered a female
...
she conceded that she didn’t have a ticket
...
So I fetched the Train Manager

Hang on, I thought that the idea of ticketless travel surveys relies on the survey-taker being able to tell survey respondents that you aren't enforcement, just gathering information?

 

[flythetube]

Hang on, I thought that the idea of ticketless travel surveys relies on the survey-taker being able to tell survey respondents that you aren't enforcement, just gathering information?

Yes this is correct. We always state that we are conducting a ticketing survey. And should anyone object they are free to refuse and refusals are recorded as such.

 

[redreni]

Yes this is correct. We always state that we are conducting a ticketing survey. And should anyone object they are free to refuse and refusals are recorded as such.

So hang on, is it correct that you tell people it's information gathering rather than enforcement?

Or is it correct that when the passenger turned out to be short-faring, you fetched the guard?

Please tell us it's not both!

 

[1D54]

Yes this is correct. We always state that we are conducting a ticketing survey. And should anyone object they are free to refuse and refusals are recorded as such.

I have refused in the past to show my ticket and the guy then enquired where i was travelling from / to and i refused to answer that as well. I pointed out that i never take part in any surveys and he went on his way.

 

[sheff1]

On board staff do not establish the customersexact travel intentions at the point of checking tickets by asking what journey are you making with us today and then asking to see the ticket !!

Some do. Pretty common on Crosscountry south of Sheffield where people are asked if they are travelling beyond Derby when showing a ticket valid to there. Many are, some with a string of tickets.

 

[TUC]

RPIs on Northern usually work in pairs because they aren't permitted to issue Penalty Fares when working alone.

Why not?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Nov 2024 ==

So hang on, is it correct that you tell people it's information gathering rather than enforcement?

Or is it correct that when the passenger turned out to be short-faring, you fetched the guard?

Please tell us it's not both!

The two things aren't inconsistent. Why shouldn't someone short-faring be reported?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The two things aren't inconsistent. Why shouldn't someone short-faring be reported?

If the information that is being gathered is to reflect what travellers actually have in the way of tickets, then there shouldn't be any downside to being honest. If the survey taker is going to report fare dodgers, then the dodgers have an incentive to give a dishonest answer and avoid the downside of a penalty.

 

[redreni]

Why not?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Nov 2024 ==


The two things aren't inconsistent. Why shouldn't someone short-faring be reported?

They're not logically inconsistent.

The morality of lying is a matter for individuals.

The effect of lying is the effectiveness of the Ticketless Traveller Survey will be reduced if people learn that the people carrying out the survey lie and participate in enforcement.

If you want to do enforcement, do enforcement. I'm not objecting to that. In fact I'm all for it. So much of what is wrong with railway ticketing is caused by the fact TOCs know tickets are rarely checked, so feel they have to compensate for the low likelihood that fare dodgers will be caught using fear of wholly disproportionate consequences when they are caught (which also catches people who make genuine mistakes, of course).

 

[Kite159]

Some passengers know on some long distance services the guard will check tickets from the origin station but then only pass through asking for tickets from 'X', even if they have changed on route, so said passenger will chance short faring if they think they can get away with it.

Especially if the destination station lacks barriers (and even if had barriers they will be the sort who will buy a ticket from the closest station).

As for multiple checks, change of guard along the route (the incoming guard has no idea who the outgoing guard has checked) or even a guard forgetting who they have checked as revenue is low on their priorities