Multiple people in ICE cab.

[williamn]

I’m currently sat at the front of an ICE from Frankfurt to Brussels and there are two others in the cab in addition to the driver. I presume they are being trained but seeing him talking and gesticulating to them makes me feel slightly concerned! Is this usual? Would it be allowed in the UK?

 

[bahnause]

Quite normal. If the driver was distracted, he would let them know. It depends on the operator hoe many peaple are allowed in the cab. (It's four in my company).

 

[williamn]

At 300km/h you might not know you’re distracted until it’s too late!

 

[class ep-09]

I’m currently sat at the front of an ICE from Frankfurt to Brussels and there are two others in the cab in addition to the driver. I presume they are being trained but seeing him talking and gesticulating to them makes me feel slightly concerned! Is this usual? Would it be allowed in the UK?

It happens on daily basis and 200 or 300km / makes no difference .
If something was to happen at these speeds , by the time you realise is something is about to happen , it happened already .

 

[duesselmartin]

At 300km/h you might not know you’re distracted until it’s too late!

at that speed much of the process is automated, be it LZB or ects.

 

[yorkie]

At 300km/h you might not know you’re distracted until it’s too late!

Too late for what? Trains are not driven on sight; the stopping distances are far too great!

 

[williamn]

Too late for what? Trains are not driven on sight; the stopping distances are far too great!

I’m not an expert! It’s just disconcerting to see the driver turning around to talk and taking his eye off proceedings.

 

[rf_ioliver]

I’m not an expert! It’s just disconcerting to see the driver turning around to talk and taking his eye off proceedings.

The computer is in control, not to worry....same as aircraft and cars, I only get worried when you have humans in there.

 

[hexagon789]

I’m not an expert! It’s just disconcerting to see the driver turning around to talk and taking his eye off proceedings.

On all German high-speed lines, or indeed lines permitting over 160km/h, the train drives itself. It will not only hold the relevant permitted speed but automatically reduce/increase to match changing limits and can perform a controlled stop at a 'red signal'. Indeed, the driver essentially just monitors the process and stops/starts the train at stations.

German ICE operations are highly automated, in contrast to French TGV operations where although the cab signalling could be used to drive the train, they are still fully manually driven albeit under full speed supervision.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

German policy on access to driving cabs is more relaxed than in the UK. Catering staff on ICE trains are issued with cab door keys and it's not uncommon for them to bring the driver a hot drink during the journey and then perhaps chat with the driver for a few minutes.
On regional trains it's common for the ticket inspector to ride in the front cab with the driver when not inspecting tickets. This doesn't happen on ICE trains because there is spacious office for the train crew, of which there will almost always be more than one. However the guard might also visit the driver to talk to them from time to time.

Another possibility that comes to mind, is that the majority of DB drivers begin their career by joining a 3 year apprenticeship program straight out of school, and these apprenticeships all begin on the 1st of September, so it's possible there are currently a lot of new apprentices currently being given their first taste of life at the sharp end as observers.

It's possible Germany has historically less reliance on total driver concentration, or it could be just the general culture. Germany has had a system which applies the emergency brakes in case of a SPAD since 1934, whereas TPWS didn't come along until 1999.

In my experience whenever comparing the safety regulations of different railway networks, most people consider the safety measures of 'their' railway utterly essential and are horrified when another railway system ignores them, and consider the safety measures that are only employed by an 'other' railway as unnecessary

On all German high-speed lines, or indeed lines permitting over 160km/h, the train drives itself. It will not only hold the relevant permitted speed but automatically reduce/increase to match changing limits and can perform a controlled stop at a 'red signal'. Indeed, the driver essentially just monitors the process and stops/starts the train at stations.

German ICE operations are highly automated, in contrast to French TGV operations where although the cab signalling could be used to drive the train, they are still fully manually driven albeit under full speed supervision.

This is indeed possible but the system is not designed for this purpose and it is not the recommended driving technique. LZB and plain ETCS are safety systems and not automatic train operation systems. They take no account of the timetable or passenger comfort, and using them to directly control the train speed means the train would drive at maximum power right up until the point is necessary to apply immediate maximum braking in order to stop in time. No sensible driver would do this.
By contrast timing on high speed lines have a lot of padding and drivers are trained in how to minimize energy consumption by reducing power and taking advnatge of the gradients of the line.

 

[williamn]

All very interesting, thank you for the replies! The other two in the cab must have been trainees as they both took turns on the controls.

 

[hexagon789]

This is indeed possible but the system is not designed for this purpose and it is not the recommended driving technique. LZB and plain ETCS are safety systems and not automatic train operation systems. They take no account of the timetable or passenger comfort, and using them to directly control the train speed means the train would drive at maximum power right up until the point is necessary to apply immediate maximum braking in order to stop in time. No sensible driver would do this.
By contrast timing on high speed lines have a lot of padding and drivers are trained in how to minimize energy consumption by reducing power and taking advnatge of the gradients of the line.

I knew about the padding, but just presumed the system was intelligent enough to know when to coast. A bit like some DAS here in the UK.

So, ICE drivers drive 'manually' like their TGV counterparts then?

 

[bahnause]

So, ICE drivers drive 'manually' like their TGV counterparts then?

Manually or half manually. You can use the speed control to set a desired or the max speed, but do the coasting/braking and accelerating yourself.

 

[hexagon789]

Manually or half manually. You can use the speed control to set a desired or the max speed, but do the coasting/braking and accelerating yourself.

That's what I meant, TGVs have a speedset too.

 

[cakefiend]

I’m currently sat at the front of an ICE from Frankfurt to Brussels and there are two others in the cab in addition to the driver. I presume they are being trained but seeing him talking and gesticulating to them makes me feel slightly concerned! Is this usual? Would it be allowed in the UK?

There's rules on this. Here the visitors would need to have authorisation from the TOC/FOCs and normally hold a "cab pass" stating their name, position if they hold PTS and whether they are allowed in a cab alone - they're tightly controlled. Depending on the type of passes held by the visitors, they may need to be accompanied by someone who is allowed to escort visitors in the cab or the driver themselves could be that person (in which case they would usually be an instructor or manager).

General rules are that you keep your phones off and only use other devices if essential, discussion is fine but it stops as soon as the driver encounters cautionary aspects, and you do what they say without question.

 

[bahnause]

That's what I meant, TGVs have a speedset too.

I tend to set the speed control to the max permissible and use the power and brake "to taste". On an EMU, the speed control can be used for braking to a certain speed as well, some are better, some are worse. The ICE4 is quite smooth at braking, but has a tendency to jolt if you set the speed to a higher speed without pulling back the power a bit beforehand. Loco hauled stock is a bit different as they behave a bit more like a harmonica and speed control doesn't hadle it very well. Especially in wet conditions when they only use dynamic braking. It's better to brake to the lower speed manually and set the speet control afterwards.

We have some guidance for the apprentices on driving technique, but that's not too strict. You really don't need to micromanage highly qualified staff.

If I am driving with an apprentice: Yes I will talkt to them (that is my job) and I might use my hands (that is my nature).

 

[hexagon789]

I tend to set the speed control to the max permissible and use the power and brake "to taste". On an EMU, the speed control can be used for braking to a certain speed as well, some are better, some are worse. The ICE4 is quite smooth at braking, but has a tendency to jolt if you set the speed to a higher speed without pulling back the power a bit beforehand. Loco hauled stock is a bit different as they behave a bit more like a harmonica and speed control doesn't hadle it very well. Especially in wet conditions when they only use dynamic braking. It's better to brake to the lower speed manually and set the speet control afterwards.

We have some guidance for the apprentices on driving technique, but that's not too strict. You really don't need to micromanage highly qualified staff.

If I am driving with an apprentice: Yes I will talkt to them (that is my job) and I might use my hands (that is my nature).

Thank you for the explanations, it's always interesting to read of driving techniques and procedures on non-UK railways - how the differ and even, sometimes, how they are the same.

 

[bahnause]

Thank you for the explanations, it's always interesting to read of driving techniques and procedures on non-UK railways - how the differ and even, sometimes, how they are the same.

If you want to train people how to drive a train (or how not to...), they will have to be in the cab at some point in the process in any country I suppose. Depending on the crew, it can be more or less animated. When the apprentice is driving, there might be more or less intervention by the driver depending on the "fear factor" he is able to tolerate . As long as I don't see imminent danger, I let them make their own mistakes.