Multiple fraud counts

[ccfc1883]

So I was stupid and got caught with not one, but nine child tickets as an 18 year old. I had nine as I'd had 3 journeys each with 3 splits in 3 days, so were in my wallet as I showed the guy my ID. Of course, he noticed them and I was screwed from that point forward.

The guy read my rights for each ticket, I wasn't allowed to sit down or go to anywhere less crowded, and I just admitted I did it because I couldn't afford full price as an 18 year old on ESA for depression/anxiety. I was actually going to do some of my first real work, but had no where near enough to pay full price.

There was no police or anything but he said I was facing 9 counts of fraud, some involving tickets worth £2.

I'm not asking for any advice to fight it as I'm aware I broke the law, but what should I expect with this many charges. Most are London midland tickets. What sort of fine should I expect, or should I be expecting a court summons?

Thanks

 

[najaB]

I'm not asking for any advice to fight it as I'm aware I broke the law, but what should I expect with this many charges. Most are London midland tickets. What sort of fine should I expect, or should I be expecting a court summons?

In all likelihood this will be dealt with as one case, rather than nine separate cases.

A fine can only be imposed by the court so the question you want answered is 'How large could I expect a settlement to be, or will they definitely take me to court?'

Train operating companies (TOCs) generally tend to deal with low-value cases by way of a settlement where they don't have reason to believe that the passenger is likely to reoffend. As such, I think you have a decent chance of achieving a settlement, though the fact that it occurred over three days does count against you.

The best way to achieve this is by replying to the inevitable letter making clear that: you admit that you were in the wrong, that you will never do it again, that you understand the impact that fare evasion has on other passengers and that you want to recompense them for their loss and costs in order to resolve the matter expeditiously. I'd expect a settlement to be around £150 plus the full fare for the journeys you've taken.

As an aside, if you are going to be travelling for work you should check and see if a 16-25 railcard will save you money (1/3 off but only after 10am) or get a season ticket.

 

[StarCrossing]

I don't think the fact that you used split tickets is of any great significance. The fact that you did this three days in a row is potentially significant as it suggests a longer term motive of not paying the correct fare.

Some people have successfully avoided court for similar offences by negotiating settlements with the train company, which is I guess what you mean by "a fine" (i.e. pay some money, but avoid court). However, this cannot be guaranteed and every case is different.

The train company have evidence of you not paying the correct fare for three days. If you can convince them that this has not been going on for longer, then it may (no guarantees though) help you negotiate an out-of-court settlement with them.

 

[soil]

First thing to do is wait for a letter from the TOC. Come back when they've sent you one.

The charge is unlikely to be fraud.

 

[ccfc1883]

Thanks for the replies, hopefully they go for a settlement.
I'll also look into the 16-25 railcard. Ill have a go at drafting an apologetic letter to them for when the envelope drops through the door.

On a side note, did the ticket gate operator have a right to force me to empty my wallet? Or should that be for the police only?

 

[221129]

Thanks for the replies, hopefully they go for a settlement.
I'll also look into the 16-25 railcard. Ill have a go at drafting an apologetic letter to them for when the envelope drops through the door.

On a side note, did the ticket gate operator have a right to force me to empty my wallet? Or should that be for the police only?

They have a right to take any tickets off you. That's it though.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Some people have successfully avoided court for similar offences by negotiating settlements with the train company, which is I guess what you mean by "a fine" (i.e. pay some money, but avoid court). However, this cannot be guaranteed and every case is different.

This seems to be the stock answer to everybody who gets caught fare dodging but if somebody genuinely can’t afford the adult fare, especially when some of the tickets were only £2, there is very little likelihood of them being able to make an acceptable out of court offer.

 

[najaB]

This seems to be the stock answer to everybody who gets caught fare dodging but if somebody genuinely can’t afford the adult fare, especially when some of the tickets were only £2, there is very little likelihood of them being able to make an acceptable out of court offer.

I'm hopeful that seeing as the OP was on their way to their 'first real work' their financial situation is a little less precipitous now than it was when they got caught.

 

[221129]

This seems to be the stock answer to everybody who gets caught fare dodging but if somebody genuinely can’t afford the adult fare, especially when some of the tickets were only £2, there is very little likelihood of them being able to make an acceptable out of court offer.

It is still the best advice, as the alternative is off to Court with all the implications that follow. It also allows time to save, borrow and seek further financial advice as these letters can take a few weeks/months to arrive.

 

[ccfc1883]

I'm hopeful that seeing as the OP was on their way to their 'first real work' their financial situation is a little less precipitous now than it was when they got caught.

Not really, unfortunately ESA for young people is around £200 per month, so trying to get back on the ladder with the extortionate fares charged is tricky. It was a part-time gig that I couldn't afford to get to afterwards, so back to square one.

In regards to the smaller fares they were part of split ticketing, so part of a larger fare.

 

[StarCrossing]

This seems to be the stock answer to everybody who gets caught fare dodging but if somebody genuinely can’t afford the adult fare, especially when some of the tickets were only £2, there is very little likelihood of them being able to make an acceptable out of court offer.

I understand what you're saying and it will always depend on the individual circumstances. For example, some people would not consider borrowing money off friends or family to fund their commute, but would bite the bullet and borrow the money to avoid a criminal prosecution. However, I recognise not all people have this option.

It's certainly worth the OP knowing their options now, in case they can save up enough money to be able to make the train company an offer if and when the letter arrives.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Considering this is not one, but 3 attempts to defraud the railway, I sincerely hope that in the OP's case, the TOC does not go straight to court, although if it were me in his situation, I would be deeply worried as a successful prosecution will hinder his application for employment should he have to declare it.

I hope the TOC takes lenient action and the OP can borrow from family or friends to pay a suitable settlement

Judging by many of the posts in this forum, I don't think the TOC would give a flying fig that he can't afford to pay the adult fare; it's a shame if they don't consider this but I wouldn't be surprised

It is sad that those who can't afford to pay the high fares (but are willing to pay something) are criminalized

 

[FenMan]

I hope the TOC takes lenient action and the OP can borrow from family or friends to pay a suitable settlement

I would rather hope the OP will take sufficient responsibility for their actions to get paid work to pay off the settlement, rather than cadging from family and friends. If it comes to it, courts have well established processes to determine payment schedules based upon the defendant's means.

 

[soil]

It is still the best advice, as the alternative is off to Court with all the implications that follow. It also allows time to save, borrow and seek further financial advice as these letters can take a few weeks/months to arrive.

except the reality is if you go to court the outcomes are nowhere near as bad as the media portrays. Time to pay is guaranteed, and reduced fees are a real possibility.

Not saying it's the best option, but an 18-year-old with a sob story is not getting to whacked for £660 in court...

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I would rather hope the OP will take sufficient responsibility for their actions to get paid work to pay off the settlement, rather than cadging from family and friends. If it comes to it, courts have well established processes to determine payment schedules based upon the defendant's means.

I don't think the OP would like to start his working life paying off a court fine; borrowing off family might be better in the short term at least to pay off the debt quickly so that the OP can start work with a clean slate

 

[MikeWh]

Considering this is not one, but 3 attempts to defraud the railway,

As the recently approved post #10 states, the 3 tickets were a split on one journey.

 

[Darandio]

Not really, unfortunately ESA for young people is around £200 per month, so trying to get back on the ladder with the extortionate fares charged is tricky. It was a part-time gig that I couldn't afford to get to afterwards, so back to square one.

Just remember that when you do write your letter, don't include things such as what I have highlighted in bold.

 

[StarCrossing]

As the recently approved post #10 states, the 3 tickets were a split on one journey.

There were three tickets per day, but this was also repeated three days in a row.

 

[ccfc1883]

Just remember that when you do write your letter, don't include things such as what I have highlighted in bold.

Don't worry, I'll be nice. Appreciate the advice.

 

[najaB]

Not really, unfortunately ESA for young people is around £200 per month, so trying to get back on the ladder with the extortionate fares charged is tricky. It was a part-time gig that I couldn't afford to get to afterwards, so back to square one.

That's unfortunate. As others have posted however, both the Court and to a lesser extent the TOC will take your means into account when determining the amount of a fine/settlement.

 

[ccfc1883]

I really appreciate the replies from you all. I will try and save as much as possible and be prepared for when the letter comes. I'm not one for borrowing from family, especially when it was my screw up.

I'm sure you've been asked this sort of thing before but I'll try and get a draft letter sorted, so what tends to play well? I'm getting a 16-25 railcard tomorrow so I'll mention that. I obviously already admitted guilt in my initial statement but I suppose being fully honest helps. I also saw someone say make them an offer... would they not be upfront about the ballpark payment they're after if they want a settlement?

 

[FenMan]

I don't think the OP would like to start his working life paying off a court fine; borrowing off family might be better in the short term at least to pay off the debt quickly so that the OP can start work with a clean slate

I am not talking about a career! Any kind of casual work would do.

The other benefit would be the OP has sorted this out themselves, without imposing on their family, and has learned a valuable life lesson in the process.

Generally speaking, people who do not organise themselves to pay for train journeys at the first opportunity are not victims. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are exceptions.

 

[gray1404]

On a side note, did the ticket gate operator have a right to force me to empty my wallet? Or should that be for the police only?

They only have the right to take off you any tickets that you hand over to them. i.e. they do not have the power to search you. It might have been better just to hand over the ticket being used for the journey in question at the time rather then the entire lot inside the wallet. That is academic now anyway.

Just wait for the letter to arrive and follow the advise given here.

 

[najaB]

They only have the right to take off you any tickets that you hand over to them. i.e. they do not have the power to search you.

I agree they don't have power of search, but I believe they can require you to hand over any tickets they see. The OP said that the RPI saw the tickets as he went for his ID.

 

[gray1404]

It has always baffled me why people bother to show ID when all one is required to give is their name and address. I personally would not like the idea of someone taking down details like my passport or driving licence number.

 

[najaB]

It has always baffled me why people bother to show ID when all one is required to give is their name and address. I personally would not like the idea of someone taking down details like my passport or driving licence number.

And it's always baffled me why people are opposed to national ID cards.

But neither is of any relevance here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Will be interesting to see the outcome of this. LM are not known for being litigious - in particular they barely ever bother prosecuting for simple ticketless travel (most likely either a ticket gets sold or at a push a regular statutory PF). As people will note they are not a TOC that comes up in this subforum with any frequency.

However, clearly this is case of repeatedly knowingly and deliberately saving money by purchasing child tickets - a clear RoRA or even regular fraud charge if they wish to go that way, so the OP is best to find a way to pay any out of court settlement offered, however high, and not do it again. (If you can't afford to travel to a job, that job is not open to you - it's as simple as that).

If the settlement is unaffordably high, the TOC may be amenable to a payment over a few months - you can but ask.

 

[bb21]

It has always baffled me why people bother to show ID when all one is required to give is their name and address. I personally would not like the idea of someone taking down details like my passport or driving licence number.

Name + address do not always check out for various reasons. IDs make things much easier for all involved.

If the former happened, you would likely cause yourself unnecessary hassle.

 

[bb21]

I really appreciate the replies from you all. I will try and save as much as possible and be prepared for when the letter comes. I'm not one for borrowing from family, especially when it was my screw up.

I'm sure you've been asked this sort of thing before but I'll try and get a draft letter sorted, so what tends to play well? I'm getting a 16-25 railcard tomorrow so I'll mention that. I obviously already admitted guilt in my initial statement but I suppose being fully honest helps. I also saw someone say make them an offer... would they not be upfront about the ballpark payment they're after if they want a settlement?

I don't think saying you now will get a Railcard is going to affect this case, but it cannot hurt I suppose.

Re: making them an offer, my advice is to simply say that you would like to settle this out of court for a sum that covers their costs in investigating this matter. I wouldn't think making them an offer is a good way forward. You could, but you run the risk of making too low an offer leading to them rejecting it straight away and proceeding to court as a result, so to play it safe you end up making them a higher offer than necessary. Wait for them to suggest how much.

 

[Clip]

Name + address do not always check out for various reasons. IDs make things much easier for all involved.

If the former happened, you would likely cause yourself unnecessary hassle.

Indeed and as has been shown many times in this forum - people move and dont get letters or they go missing or someone uses their name when caught out without a ticket whilst travelling.

Personally I would have no problem with an inspector seeing my ID if it turned out I had a ticket irregularity - then again I go for the easy life and try not to cause myself much hassle where I can. I know this is not for everyone.