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Multiple confusing restriction codes

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NigelH

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I am planning a journey from Loughborough (LBO) to Reading (RDG) via London and wish to use a "super off peak" ticket. On the outward journey, I plan to stop for a considerable time in London before continuing to Reading (obviously paying separately for any extra underground travel). My problem is understanding what trains I can use for the final leg Paddington to Reading, since the National Rail journey planner doesn't allow one to input such a journey - while you can add extra time for changing trains, this applies in both directions (and to all changes). The restriction code for that ticket is CI, which (for the outward journey) according to BRFares only restricts the time of arrival at St. Pancras, but it also says in the notes "Journeys to London Paddington please use 2Q, 2X, 5Q, WN, WP, XC & YV". How is anyone supposed to know which of those (if any) to apply? In addition, the "unpublished restrictions" say "not valid to depart London Paddington 1502-1900 on any TOC", which is even more restrictive that the usual off-peak restriction from London to Reading where Elizabeth Line trains can be used during peak times. (However, there is also a note that says that "these data can not be used to determine time restrictions when breaking and resuming a journey at an intermediate station" which adds further to the confusion.)

Empirically (by changing the departure time from Loughborough later to force a later train from Paddington or by using the "split ticketing" site that allows you to input an extra time for changing in one direction only), it appears that any train can be used on the Paddington to Reading leg, and I'm sure I've done this in the past, but that was many years ago and things do change. How I should I determine which trains can and cannot be used for such a journey, please?
 
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jfollows

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The CI restriction you mention for Paddington departures is for the return journey, isn’t it? From Reading to Loughborough.
 

Watershed

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I am planning a journey from Loughborough (LBO) to Reading (RDG) via London and wish to use a "super off peak" ticket. On the outward journey, I plan to stop for a considerable time in London before continuing to Reading (obviously paying separately for any extra underground travel). My problem is understanding what trains I can use for the final leg Paddington to Reading, since the National Rail journey planner doesn't allow one to input such a journey - while you can add extra time for changing trains, this applies in both directions (and to all changes).
TrainSplit is probably your best option here - it allows you to specify, in the advanced settings, additional time for changes at specific stations. You can also enter different amounts of time for the outward vs return journey.

If you enter something like "change at" -> "Paddington", with 120/240 etc. minutes of additional interchange time, and untick the option to apply this in both directions, it will probably come up with the itinerary you want.

Of course you're in no way tied to the itinerary you choose with a walk-up ticket, so you can just apply it to both directions anyway and it makes no difference. You can always obtain a seat reservation separately, for free, through the GWR website (see here).

The restriction code for that ticket is CI, which (for the outward journey) according to BRFares only restricts the time of arrival at St. Pancras, but it also says in the notes "Journeys to London Paddington please use 2Q, 2X, 5Q, WN, WP, XC & YV". How is anyone supposed to know which of those (if any) to apply?
It's a complete mess. I don't see how anyone could possibly be expected to understand which restriction code should be applied, especially since the restrictions vary quite significantly between those codes, since they are used by GWR for both Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak tickets to different destinations.

In reality you would be best off using a journey planner to see what trains are offered, and then relying on the contractual validity of those results (if you buy a ticket in conjunction with the chosen itinerary).

In addition, the "unpublished restrictions" say "not valid to depart London Paddington 1502-1900 on any TOC", which is even more restrictive that the usual off-peak restriction from London to Reading where Elizabeth Line trains can be used during peak times.
That restriction only applies to the return leg of the ticket, i.e. Reading towards Paddington, so it is of no real relevance to your journey. The only impact is that you can't get itineraries for journeys involving the Elizabeth line from Paddington eastwards (which I hardly think is what they intended when they put this in the data!).

There is no blanket rule that Elizabeth line trains can or can't be used during the evening peak on Off-Peak tickets. For some Off-Peak tickets it's permitted, for others it isn't; you have to refer to the relevant restriction code to check. In practice I don't think you'd have a problem at gatelines, but the inverse can be true too - valid Off-Peak tickets frequently get rejected by the GWR barriers at Paddington, and the gateline staff often refuse to let people through, wrongly claiming that a particular train is effectively 'Anytime tickets only' (which is not at all how it works).

(However, there is also a note that says that "these data can not be used to determine time restrictions when breaking and resuming a journey at an intermediate station" which adds further to the confusion.)
This is just a disclaimer by BR Fares that you shouldn't read too much into the restrictions, because they don't cater well to break of journey at intermediate stations. In this case though, they do work for your scenario since you would be changing at Paddington regardless. It'd be more if you changed at Slough, for example, that there could be an issue.

As mentioned though, if you rely on an itinerary from a journey planner, you are absolutely in the clear from a legal perspective - although a trouble-free journey can never be 100% guaranteed given the (inadequate) ticket training provided to staff...

Empirically (by changing the departure time from Loughborough later to force a later train from Paddington or by using the "split ticketing" site that allows you to input an extra time for changing in one direction only), it appears that any train can be used on the Paddington to Reading leg, and I'm sure I've done this in the past, but that was many years ago and things do change. How I should I determine which trains can and cannot be used for such a journey, please?
Yes, that's correct. See above.
 

PG

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The full text of the Notes section reads:
When the origin of the outward portion of the ticket is related to Westbury, Castle Cary, Pewsey or Swindon the RETURN travel restrictions above also apply.

In addition:

  • Journeys to London Kings Cross and Stevenage please use restriction 1L.
  • Journeys to Euston please use restriction 2C.
  • If travel is NOT to/via the stations listed above or is via Peterborough, see restriction code 2V.
  • Journeys to London Paddington please use 2Q, 2X, 5Q, WN, WP, XC & YV.

My understanding is that the third condition is the relevant one and so the additional restriction code which applies is 2V, on the  outward journey. Re the return journey, as @Watershed says, It's a complete mess!
 

Watershed

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The full text of the Notes section reads:


My understanding is that the third condition is the relevant one and so the additional restriction code which applies is 2V, on the  outward journey. Re the return journey, as @Watershed says, It's a complete mess!
Restriction code 2V is the standard one used by XC for 99% of their Off-Peak Returns. The reference to it here is essentially intended to apply 2V if you're using XC. For EMR services they are content to restrict your arrival or departure time in London.
 

PG

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Restriction code 2V is the standard one used by XC for 99% of their Off-Peak Returns. The reference to it here is essentially intended to apply 2V if you're using XC. For EMR services they are content to restrict your arrival or departure time in London.
So my understanding was incorrect, though given the fudging of different restriction codes perhaps not surprising! Thanks for setting me straight.
 

Hadders

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Hang on.

On the outward portion a Super Off-Peak ticket between Loughborough and Reading there are no restrictions between Paddington and Reading. Any train may be used. Of course we cannot guarantee that the Paddington gateline will agree.

Back in the day this was all clearly documented in the Network Area Rule...
 

Haywain

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Back in the day this was all clearly documented in the Network Area Rule...
Which no longer exists, and EMR are as guilty as any TOC of failing to observe the spirit of it. Just look at the restrictions on a Luton to York Super Off Peak Single.
 

Hadders

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I don't know if I'm missing something but nre.co.uk/CI says:

Applicable Days​

Monday to Friday
Mondays-Fridays

Outward Travel​

Not valid on trains timed to arrive:
  • London St Pancras International after 04:29 and before 11:29;
  • Bedford after 04:29 and before 10:30.

Return Travel​

Not valid on trains timed to depart:
  • London St Pancras International after 04:29 and before 10:04 or after 15:35 and until 18:47
  • Bedford after 04:29 and before 10:30.

Notes​

When the origin of the outward portion of the ticket is related to Westbury, Castle Cary, Pewsey or Swindon the RETURN travel restrictions above also apply.
In addition:
  • Journeys to London Kings Cross and Stevenage please use restriction 1L.
  • Journeys to Euston please use restriction 2C.
  • If travel is NOT to/via the stations listed above or is via Peterborough, see restriction code 2V.
  • Journeys to London Paddington please use 2Q, 2X, 5Q, WN, WP, XC & YV.
The journey is to Reading not Paddington so we don't need to consult 2Q, 2X, 5Q, WN, XC or YV.
I can't see anything here that restricts travel between Paddington and Reading.
 

PG

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The journey is to Reading not Paddington so we don't need to consult 2Q, 2X, 5Q, WN, XC or YV.
I can't see anything here that restricts travel between Paddington and Reading.
I agree with you for the  outward journey, but the return journey would be to Paddington so all of 2Q, 2X, 5Q, WN, XC, YV need to be consulted.
 

Haywain

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I agree with you for the  outward journey, but the return journey would be to Paddington so all of 2Q, 2X, 5Q, WN, XC, YV need to be consulted.
No, they would not. They only apply where the origin station of the outward portion of the ticket is in the areas indicated. Loughborough is not in those areas. And, whilst not relevant, neither is Reading.
 
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Hadders

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I agree with you for the  outward journey, but the return journey would be to Paddington so all of 2Q, 2X, 5Q, WN, XC, YV need to be consulted.
The return journey is to Loughborough, not Paddington.
 

NigelH

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Thanks for all the replies. It does seem that any train is OK, but you've confirmed my thought that the whole system is a complete mess!
 

Hadders

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The system is a mess, but the DfT/RDG/Train companies do not have a good track record when it comes to simplification.

If it was simplified, you can bet the times the ticket could be used would be further restricted.
 
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