Mulhouse harsh ticket controllers

[DeverseSam]

I observed this:

- Train departed Mulhouse 0846
- Girl bought ticket at 0850
- Ticket control 0919
- The girl was fined 65 euro for buying after departure!

Harsh but it seems to be normal in that part of France, according to this article https://actu.fr/societe/la-sncf-lui...il-denonce-un-manque-d-humanite_61068334.html

SNCF said:

This is a regularization applied for the Strasbourg-Mulhouse journey when the ticket is purchased after the train departure time. It is therefore a completely normal procedure in this case

Is this the harshest ticketing treatment seen anywhere?

 

[rvdborgt]

I'd say this is standard for SNCF in general. I've also seen a number of stories from mobile Interrail pass holders who had activated their travel day after departure and were consequently fined €50, even if only minutes after departure. In one case there was even a fine when the pass was activated after the planned departure time but before the delayed actual departure, but I believe that fine was refunded by Eurail because it's not justified, since the requirement is to activate before you board.

 

[blotred]

This is normal in Switzerland at least.
If it is a digital ticket, always buy your ticket before boarding, no exceptions.
Even if it's a couple of seconds after boarding or departure, you are liable to be fined. This has been well covered in the Swiss press at least of people getting fined for validating or buying their e-ticket seconds after door closure (door closure is recorded in their digital systems, so the ticket inspector can verify the times)

Harsh, maybe? But those are the rules.

The Zurich Transport Association explains in English here, I think its fair personally: https://www.zvv.ch/zvv/en/service/infos-e-tickets.html

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is normal in the UK as well, there have been several cases like this in the Disputes forum. Otherwise people can buy when they see inspectors.

 

[DeverseSam]

The Zurich Transport Association explains in English here, I think its fair personally: https://www.zvv.ch/zvv/en/service/infos-e-tickets.html

Interesting, so the Swiss are saying buy before the train starts moving.

Whereas the French are saying you must buy before the scheduled departure time even if the train is delayed!

I suppose the UK way is more like the Swiss with the exception of Hull and Grand Central.

 

[Starmill]

If the ticket purchase wasn't completed before boarding then unfortunately it's just the way it is.

It would only be a problem if the ticket were purchased before boarding, but a delayed departure by a few minutes showed up the ticket as booked after scheduled time. I don't know if that's something that SNCF or SBB would do - my great hope would be no.

 

[blotred]

I think in Switzerland, its whatever the actual departure time was as measured by the vehicle in-built tracking systems.
So if you bought a ticket at 1744 for a 1743 departure, which was delayed and physically left at 1745 - this is fine as long as the ticket was purchased before you physically entered the vehicle. The timestamps will all line up when the ticket is scanned by the inspector using their mobile devices.
However, the apps will warn you are buying a ticket for a departure in the past when trying to do this, as you need to be careful.

Of course, there is no timestamp for when you physically entered the vehicle. But if an inspector is waiting at the entrance doors (it happens), and you haven't solved the ticket beforehand, you are liable for a fine. In Zurich at least, they will not be sympathetic.

 

[DeverseSam]

“Barème bord” at 35 euro should have been charged in my opinion, for Mulhouse Strasbourg, 111km

Can anyone see how they get to 65 euro based on the attached tariff chart?

 

[30907]

I presume bareme bord isn't appropriate where there has been an infraction. But I can't work out 65.

 

[Gloster]

SNCF appears to have just modified (tightened) the rules, possibly only in Alsace, and the table may no longer be valid for the region. And SNCF has always been hot on compostage, so validation before boarding is nothing new.

 

[yorkie]

Unfortunately, train companies in several countries are keen to deter people from travelling by train; there isn't the sort of concept of 'customer service' that you get in many other service-based industries.

We see this sort of behaviour in the UK, e.g. Northern aren't just in the business of treating people who do adhere to the rules badly, but they are even keen to demonise people who did actually adhere to the rules, as their revenue staff and contractors are so badly trained and desperate to catch people out above the application of the actual rules, let alone common sense. I doubt SNCF are quite as bad as Northern are, but they aren't exactly nice to their customers.

However there are exceptions; train companies like Hull Trains generally speaking do want to make people feel welcome on their trains, and there are many other countries where the policies are more sensible and the staff are much nicer, e.g. Czech Republic. So, is it "normal" for train companies? Well, it's very variable, so I wouldn't say it is the norm, but it is not unusual either.

The sort of people who create these rules are likely car owners/drivers, and the sort of people who enforce these rules are generally people who wouldn't have a hope of getting a job in a more customer-focussed industry and are not really the sort of people who you would want to have a chat down the pub with. I suppose someone has got to employ these sorts of people, to avoid higher rates of unemployment, even though I personally wouldn't consider any of those sorts of people as employable in any organisation I've ever worked in!

Companies like SNCF, Northern etc and the people who enforce their harsh policies know that the continuing existence of their business is absolutely guaranteed, no matter how badly customers are treated and that most rail passengers have no realistic alternative. Passengers are deemed to be an inconvenience; every passenger is a potential criminal and they should be milked for every last penny and should be made to fear the companies who grudgingly carry them.

I know that SNCF don't want me as a customer; I was mistreated by them when they offered me a discount that they reneged on, and it cost me some time and money. They'd much rather I didn't visit France at all, and didn't give them the inconvenience of them having to convey me. In return, I try to visit other countries wherever possible, and keep visits to France to a minimum.

Sadly I don't have quite so much with Northern, however at least most of the time I don't encounter their disgraceful revenue staff and most (though by no means all) of the Guards on their trains are actually nice people.

 

[Segedunum]

I can't say I'm entirely surprised. I was in Alsace a couple of weeks ago and a Wissembourg to Strasbourg service was delayed 40 minutes and was to terminate short at Haguenau.

No reason was given. Amusingly the ticket office lady was giving very helpful and intricate connection advice to German-speakers (of which there were plenty) but when she'd switch back to French it was clear that she was back in true 'I don't care' mode

The conductor also failed to apologise or give a reason for the delay. We were simply told "change at Haguenau" with no platform info or departure time. Helpfully, a fast connecting train departed as we arrived. I then ran for a stopper which was to leave a couple of minutes later. While people were still trying to board, the driver made an announcement saying he wanted to go now and to stand clear before repeatedly closing the doors on people.

Welcome to SNCF

 

[signed]

“Barème bord” at 35 euro should have been charged in my opinion, for Mulhouse Strasbourg, 111km

It's not "barème bord", it's "barème contrôle"

Barème bord is for when you show yourself before any control operations, barème controle is when you get caught

And to that you will need to add the fare (in most regions)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Sep 2024 ==

I can see where the rowdy staff comes from, but I haven't encountered any obviously bad staff on SNCF TGV, they are usually very nice on the relations I take.

Once, they even made us get a 25% voucher without anyone asking because it was an evening train and half the lights in the carriage were not working.

I've seen it second hand that TER staff tends to be a lot less nice to people, though not that outrageous (for French level). Surely discretion could have been offered in this case, I agree with that.

We rarely do nice as Irish here, sadly.

 

[miklcct]

This has been well covered in the Swiss press at least of people getting fined for validating or buying their e-ticket seconds after door closure (door closure is recorded in their digital systems, so the ticket inspector can verify the times)

In this case, what was the timestamp recorded on the e-ticket if there were a few seconds between tapping the buy button and the ticket appearing on the phone?

When I make tight connections, I only want to get the ticket when I am 100% sure that I will make the train, and tap the buy button at the moment I set foot on the train!

Whereas the French are saying you must buy before the scheduled departure time even if the train is delayed!

In this case, how is it possible to buy a ticket for a delayed train waiting for the signal to depart?

 

[Bletchleyite]

When I make tight connections, I only want to get the ticket when I am 100% sure that I will make the train, and tap the buy button at the moment I set foot on the train!

Before you do, else you may come unstuck. Sadly this is one way your treating travel as some sort of sporting event may be to your disadvantage. Just slow down a bit!

 

[miklcct]

Before you do, else you may come unstuck. Sadly this is one way your treating travel as some sort of sporting event may be to your disadvantage. Just slow down a bit!

Then it will be half an hour wait to the next train (possibly to travel for 1 stop only) if the connecting train is gone!

 

[LowLevel]

France is France. A friend recently tried to buy an FIP ticket at a guichet. This can be a tricky operation on SNCF's ticket issuing software, so I mentioned to the agent the necessary discount code. I speak some French, plenty to cover the requirement. "Yes, yes, I know!" was the response so I left her to it.

Quelle surprise when with 90 seconds before the train rolled out there was a throwing up of hands, a ticket was shoved through window and "desolé! I have messed it up, you only have the 25% discount for a senior citizen, your train is leaving soon, you need to go!" and that was that

Luckily my friend can afford to write off a few euros but still, it is pretty standard fare.

On the other hand on a personal level I have found individual staff to be very helpful when approached - for example a train manager who intervened to let us stay on his packed TGV after I'd asked him for help when armed police were marching people off at Paris on a strike day.

 

[35B]

Unfortunately train companies in several countries are keen to deter people from travelling by train; there isn't the sort of concept of 'customer service' that you get in many other service-based industries.

We see this sort of behaviour in the UK, e.g. Northern aren't just in the business of treating people who do adhere to the rules badly, but they are even keen to demonise people who did actually adhere to the rules, as their revenue staff and contractors are so badly trained and desperate to catch people out above the application of the actual rules, let alone common sense. I doubt SNCF are quite as bad as Northern are, but they aren't exactly nice to their customers.

However there are exceptions; train companies like Hull Trains generally speaking do want to make people feel welcome on their trains and there are many other countries where the policies are more sensible and the staff are much nicer, e.g. Czech Republic. So, is it "normal" for train companies? Well, it's very variable, so I wouldn't say it is the norm, but it is not unusual either.

The sort of people who create these rules are likely car owners/drivers, and the sort of people who enforce these rules are generally people who wouldn't have a hope of getting a job in a more cusomer-focussed industy and are not really the sort of people who you would want to have a chat down the pub with. I suppose someone has got to employ these sorts of people, to avoid higher rates of unemployment, even though I personally wouldn't consider any of those sorts of people as employable in any organisation I've ever worked in!

Companies like SNCF, Northern etc and the people who enforce their harsh policies know that their continuing existence of the business is absolutely guaranteed, no matter how badly customers are treated and that most rail passengers have no realistic alternative. Passengers are deemed to be an inconvenience; every passenger is a potential criminal and they should be milked for every last penny and should be made to fear the companies who grudgingly carry them.

I know that SNCF don't want me as a customer; I was mistreated by them when they offered me a discount that they reneged on, and it cost me some time and money. They'd much rather I didn't visit France at all, and didn't give them the inconvenience of them having to convey me. In return, I try to visit other countries wherever possible and keep visits to France to a minimum.

Sadly I don't have quite so much with Northern, however at least most of the time I don't encounter their disgraceful revenue staff and most (though by no means all) of the Guards on their trains are actually nice people.

I was in Switzerland over the summer, and all of the staff I dealt with were friendly and courteous. The rules for tickets were clear to all, and gave clarity about what was and wasn't permissible. It was also matched, as far as I could see, with easy ticket purchasing (good mobile signal for app based purchases, plus sensibly located and well signposted machines).

That clarity was welcome, and gave everyone confidence in where they stood.

The issue, compounded by customer hostile staff, here is generally the double uncertainty of which rules apply, followed by whether enforcement is likely.

Combine clear rules, consistent enforcement, and ready availability, and rules like these are entirely reasonable.

 

[Starmill]

This message is sometimes included in automatic announcements at French stations:

Madames, Missueures, nous vous rappelons que pour être valable, les billets que vouzs avez acheteés et doivent être compostés avant l'accèss aux trains.

My French isn't great, but I make the translation of best fit something like "Ladies and Gentlemen, we remind you that in order to be valid, your tickets must be purchased and stamped before boarding the train."

Of course this is a little redundant nowadays so many kinds of ticket don't need to be stamped (composted).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Sep 2024 ==

I suppose someone has got to employ these sorts of people, to avoid higher rates of unemployment, even though I personally wouldn't consider any of those sorts of people as employable in any organisation I've ever worked in!

I'm sure something could be found. For example there's a (small) minority of British bus drivers who clearly ought to have become lorry drivers instead, as they obviously don't get anything out of the customer interaction part of the role. I accept that on the continent of course more bus drivers don't have direct customer interaction as part of the role.

 

[DeverseSam]

In this case, how is it possible to buy a ticket for a delayed train waiting for the signal to depart?

from the ticket office or machine I guess

 

[ABB125]

I've been reprimanded a few times for not activating my Interrail pass for the day in question. Mostly in Switzerland (possible once in Germany as well, I'm not sure). No issues though, just a "don't do it again"/"you must activate before you board" type response.

My excuse is that normally I've arrived on a sleeper train then almost immediately boarded the next train on my itinerary. Having the presence of mind to activate the next day on the pass is not easy to remember, especially if I've been a cheapskate and spent the night in a seat!

 

[zero]

I bought a ticket at a French ticket office after the scheduled departure of the train, and the train was already on the platform! I made it though

I have seen passengers in Switzerland getting fined for buying one minute after departure, even when the inspection took place an hour into the journey.

 

[blotred]

In this case, what was the timestamp recorded on the e-ticket if there were a few seconds between tapping the buy button and the ticket appearing on the phone?

When I make tight connections, I only want to get the ticket when I am 100% sure that I will make the train, and tap the buy button at the moment I set foot on the train!


In this case, how is it possible to buy a ticket for a delayed train waiting for the signal to depart?

If I understand correctly in Switzerland, the ticket purchase timestamp is encoded within the e-ticket itself, and the e-ticket will be generated by their back-office systems presumably within NOVA (Netzweite öV-Anbindung)
So, when you purchase the ticket, the timestamp should be the moment when the ticket is provisioned within NOVA databases, before then being delivered to your mobile device.

So you might physically click "Purchase" at 08:00:00, the ticket will be created by NOVA at 08:00:05, and you will see the QR code on your device at 08:00:07.
If the train was scheduled for 08:00:00, and door closed and started moving at 08:00:02, it is highly likely your ticket is not valid when scanned.

Since it comes down to seconds, this is why SBB, ZVV and many other öv operators in Switzerland say the safest thing to do is purchase the ticket, and see the ticket acknowledged in your phone in the form of the QR code (or check-in acknowledged for check-in based tickets) before you enter the vehicle itself.

Ticket inspections for E-tickets are performed using a handheld device where the QR code is scanned. The details of the e-ticket on your phone beyond the QR code are not normally read by the inspector unless their handheld device is faulty (this has only ever happened to me once ever in years of commuting in Switzerland).

The handheld device has the live record of the exact second when the train/bus/tram left each station, and the device is able to match the QR code with whether the ticket is valid or not based on purchase time, route, class, fare etc and whether ID should be verified (if you have never had your ID verified in the back office systems.)

It seems like a lot of controls and technology for fare control, but Swiss public transport is expensive. It is only fair we buy tickets according to the published regulations, and if there is a data privacy concern one can buy normal tickets from the machine and not have to worry about QR codes or timing things to the second correctly.

 

[Flying Snail]

I've been reprimanded a few times for not activating my Interrail pass for the day in question. Mostly in Switzerland (possible once in Germany as well, I'm not sure). No issues though, just a "don't do it again"/"you must activate before you board" type response.

My excuse is that normally I've arrived on a sleeper train then almost immediately boarded the next train on my itinerary. Having the presence of mind to activate the next day on the pass is not easy to remember, especially if I've been a cheapskate and spent the night in a seat!

Sounds like you have been very lucky, carry on doing that and it's only a matter of time before you are fined.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If I understand correctly in Switzerland, the ticket purchase timestamp is encoded within the e-ticket itself, and the e-ticket will be generated by their back-office systems presumably within NOVA (Netzweite öV-Anbindung)
So, when you purchase the ticket, the timestamp should be the moment when the ticket is provisioned within NOVA databases, before then being delivered to your mobile device.

So you might physically click "Purchase" at 08:00:00, the ticket will be created by NOVA at 08:00:05, and you will see the QR code on your device at 08:00:07.
If the train was scheduled for 08:00:00, and door closed and started moving at 08:00:02, it is highly likely your ticket is not valid when scanned.

That is about the most Swiss thing I've ever heard. Logic would be to avoid all that hassle by just allowing say a one minute unpublished leeway rather than catching people out based on literally seconds.

 

[35B]

That is about the most Swiss thing I've ever heard. Logic would be to avoid all that hassle by just allowing say a one minute unpublished leeway rather than catching people out based on literally seconds.

Disagree. It’s a clear rule and everyone knows precisely where they stand. It’s also simple because it aligns data with what’s known already.

Put in an “unpublished” leeway and you start to create uncertainty, which makes life harder for all. Under thsi system, I know that I must arrive before my train and have the ticket before I board. No ifs, no buts. Genuine edge cases, such as Interrail activations, can be handled through the use of discretion. By contrast, here in the U.K., far too many of the cases seen on here and elsewhere are fundamentally due to uncertainty about how the rules work, compounded by inconsistent staff behaviour.

To note, the Swiss system also relies on frequent services and a commitment to making tickets easy to purchase. They are part of the package, not just add ons.

 

[Gloster]

Disagree. It’s a clear rule and everyone knows precisely where they stand. It’s also simple because it aligns data with what’s known already.

Put in an “unpublished” leeway and you start to create uncertainty, which makes life harder for all. Under thsi system, I know that I must arrive before my train and have the ticket before I board. No ifs, no buts. Genuine edge cases, such as Interrail activations, can be handled through the use of discretion. By contrast, here in the U.K., far too many of the cases seen on here and elsewhere are fundamentally due to uncertainty about how the rules work, compounded by inconsistent staff behaviour.

To note, the Swiss system also relies on frequent services and a commitment to making tickets easy to purchase. They are part of the package, not just add ons.

I would say that it has long been the same in France: compostage before joining the train, which means you must have bought your ticket. Staff have some leeway to ease off on infractions, but it is always clear that this is not a right. The passenger without a ticket, except in those specific cases where they are exempted, is in the wrong.

 

[30907]

I would say that it has long been the same in France: compostage before joining the train, which means you must have bought your ticket. Staff have some leeway to ease off on infractions, but it is always clear that this is not a right. The passenger without a ticket, except in those specific cases where they are exempted, is in the wrong.

Historically, in most countries if you didn't have a valid ticket you paid an "on-board-price" or small supplement to the conductor/guard, except on urban services where there were only irregular checks and you would get a penalty. The urban system has basically been extended to longer distance routes in may countries. Czechia and Slovakia (to my knowledge - I suspect most of Central Europe too) still operate the older system.
(They also have large numbers of stations with no staff or ticket machines so need ticket-issuing on trains.)

 

[dubscottie]

Same in Ireland. RPU board a long distance commuter service and suddenly everyone is buying tickets online 1 or 2 hours after they boarded.
€100 fine + full fare for each of them.

 

[Cloud Strife]

(They also have large numbers of stations with no staff or ticket machines so need ticket-issuing on trains.)

Same in Poland, where the vast majority of stations are unstaffed and without ticket machines. As long as you buy the ticket onboard before they get to you, you don't get charged any additional fees.