MU Set Formations that are regularly booked to run in multiple

[collexions]

I'm looking for a data source/inside knowledge regarding service patterns that are regularly booked to run in multiple. e.g. 4 car set, that are usually run say as an 8 or 12 car set formation etc.

Is there anywhere that this sort of information can be overtly obtained?

I'm not looking for individual geographical areas as an enthusiast, I'm after a UK wide potential source as a research project.

Though any help is welcome, I'm really after the data source for information.

Any current regional service diagrams with such info are most welcome.

Many Thanks

 

[krus_aragon]

Are you looking for services that remain coupled throughout, or are splitting services of interest? in the latter case, ATW's Birmingham-Aberystwyth/Pwllheli/Holyhead services are a prime example, with trains splitting at Machynlleth, and an extra unit often added for Shrewsbury-Birmingham portion. I'm afraid I don't have any official, citable sources for you, however.

 

[Failed Unit]

In the London area many TOCs but the train lengths on the timetable. If you see 8 or 12 you know. Local knowledge otherwise such a all Edinburgh- Glasgow in the peak are normally double sets.

 

[chiltern trev]

Merseyrail Northern and Wirral lines have 3 car and 6 car (3+3). For details, look at the timetables at http://www.merseyrail.org/plan-your-journey/timetables.aspx - the 6 car trains are identified in the notes at the bottom of the relevant timetable pages. When there are major events on, Open Golf, etc, 6 car trains get scheduled where the demand is needed and you have to read the special notices relating to each event.

Chiltern combine 2 car, 3 car and 4 car units as required up to 8 car trains to match demand as the same trains each time but there are differences between M-F and Sat or Sun. There is but no published information - go and see what comes and goes at Marylebone. The number of cars per train will vary at times of demand changes, e.g major event at Wembley or WCML closure. For an evening football event at Wembley there is usally a poster listing the train formation changes to assist regular commuters. At other times there is just a general statement about longer trains.

 

[PHILIPE]

I'm looking for a data source/inside knowledge regarding service patterns that are regularly booked to run in multiple. e.g. 4 car set, that are usually run say as an 8 or 12 car set formation etc.

Is there anywhere that this sort of information can be overtly obtained?

I'm not looking for individual geographical areas as an enthusiast, I'm after a UK wide potential source as a research project.

Though any help is welcome, I'm really after the data source for information.

Any current regional service diagrams with such info are most welcome.

Many Thanks

This would be a tremendous task for anybody to dig out even if they had access to diagrams. The list would probably stretch from here to eternity.
I could list reams and reams of them but would only be a minute portion of them all.

 

[collexions]

Thanks. This is the issue with the NR CIF data (from Milton Keynes) being both incomplete and outdated. Class 350s come out as Class 506!?, Class 378s come out as 375s etc. There is no length or set formation data there. I'd just like to build timetables as accurately as I can. Thanks for all the responses so far.

This would be a tremendous task for anybody to dig out even if they had access to diagrams. The list would probably stretch from here to eternity.
I could list reams and reams of them but would only be a minute portion of them all.

 

[berneyarms]

I'm looking for a data source/inside knowledge regarding service patterns that are regularly booked to run in multiple. e.g. 4 car set, that are usually run say as an 8 or 12 car set formation etc.

Is there anywhere that this sort of information can be overtly obtained?

I'm not looking for individual geographical areas as an enthusiast, I'm after a UK wide potential source as a research project.

Though any help is welcome, I'm really after the data source for information.

Any current regional service diagrams with such info are most welcome.

Many Thanks

That kind of information is not contained on any data feed.

You would actually have to trawl through all of the individual TOC set diagrams, some of which are on these boards, but which are down to people putting them together themselves. It's not something that is freely available to the public. They could be excel spreadsheets or other forms - it would all depend upon the individual TOC.

I've spent time examining the ATW Class 158 diagrams for example, but even now I've not figured them all out. It was only after reading an article in Today's Railways UK that I managed to understand the basic principle of their operation, but it's taken many hours of trawling through timetables and Realtimetrains to figure the diagrams out, and even then I've still had questions!!

I think you may be trying to bite off more than you can chew.

 

[Class377/5]

Thanks. This is the issue with the NR CIF data (from Milton Keynes) being both incomplete and outdated. Class 350s come out as Class 506!?, Class 378s come out as 375s etc. There is no length or set formation data there. I'd just like to build timetables as accurately as I can. Thanks for all the responses so far.

Your confusing timing paths with allocations.

Timing paths are simply a based on the performance so all Electrostars (375/376/377/378/379/387) show as 375 as performance is identical.

Allocations are what the TOC puts into diagrams.

Not quite sure where a 350 would come or as a 506, may have been do the originally expected class number.

Won't ever get length or formation as the NR database isn't about that, it's a train paths only (there is some difference in timings between four car and a 12 car but paths have allowances to combat this). Is the TOC job to have details like train length, formation and units used.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Thanks. This is the issue with the NR CIF data (from Milton Keynes) being both incomplete and outdated. Class 350s come out as Class 506!?, Class 378s come out as 375s etc. There is no length or set formation data there. I'd just like to build timetables as accurately as I can. Thanks for all the responses so far.

Oh dear, timing load-related confusion again!

Schedule data is derived from train planning systems, which use a mathematical model of a train's acceleration characteristics and load (i.e. the weight of the train) together with its maximum speed to calculate a set of timings, which comprise the schedule. The model used in planning each schedule is known as the timing load for that schedule.

The timing load and maximum speed are shown here because they can often be used, with some care and judgement, to get a good idea of the type of train that has been planned to work a given schedule. This can be important information when deciding on a preferred train to catch.

When using the timing load to judge the type of train likely to be working a given schedule, the most important thing to bear in mind is that a train with faster acceleration and/or a lighter load can keep to a schedule designed for a train with slower acceleration and/or a heavier load. In other words, if a TOC wishes to subsitute a slow train with a faster one, there is no need to modify the schedule, since the faster train will be able to keep to the timings of the slower one. This is the most common reason for a discrepancy between the train operating a schedule and the timing load for that schedule, although there are other reasons too.

 

[The Planner]

350s coming out as 506s is some sort of idiosyncrasy with TRUST and TOPS, much the same way as 168s come out. HSTs and loco hauled passenger timing loads can give you a steer as HSTs are timed as +7, +8 or +9 and loco hauled stuff is worked out by dividing the last 3 numbers by 35 (eg: 75-47455 tends be charter stuff timed with 13 coaches). There is no way with freight as that is trailing load only, showing length on those would be quite useful!

 

[collexions]

Thanks all, you confirmed my suspicions.
I often receive diagram 'simplifiers' from the respective SCCs/ROCs that cover the schemes I'm working on (if complexity of the timetable requires it). I was just hoping to do away with requests for them if/where possible.
Now that NR have done away with 'association data' in their CIF files, this becomes more important. But it's the all important set lengths for validation/simulation modelling that I've struggled to track down.
I appreciate all your time in responding. Cheers.