MTA Fast Forward Plan/Modernisation and Lessons To Be Learned!

[Jozhua]

Occasional visitor of New York and a bit of a mass transit nerd, so the MTA modernisation programme is quite interesting to me.

The subway system is facing rising passenger numbers, despite creaking, outdated infrastructure and under-funding. (Sound Familiar? ) The system is the largest and most complex in the world, with some issues on scales that simply boggle the mind. The MTA has brought in veteran public transport fixer Andy Byford to be president of the New York City Transit Authority to help as part of their plans to modernise and improve reliability.

The MTA's "Fast-Forward" plan involves a sweeping array of changes to the way things are run, from accountability to processes as well as a large amount of infrastructure repairs/upgrades. In the next five years lines 4,5,6,7,A,C,E,G,F,M and R will be receiving signal upgrades to Communications Based Signal Control, with most other lines to be upgraded within the next ten years. This is a significantly shorter timescale than previously quoted. The 'speed' unit has been deployed to increase line speeds and re-calibrate speed governed signals. Reliability has begun to measurably improve on some lines across the system.

The issues that have faced the MTA in the past often involve corruption and poor handling of money/management as well as other government departments misusing their accounts. MTA 'bonds' would be issued to the state, at their expense, so much of the debt isn't even the fault of the MTA. Due to all of this, various government agencies have been unwilling to give the funding required, so by trying to stamp out some of these issues and having a clearer plan, I think Byford should make convincing those who are sceptical of the MTA to give it more funding much easier.

I think what could make this plan more successful than others is it's ability to offer both short and long term improvements to passengers/stakeholders, prove funding is necessary and will be well spent and having better public relations in terms of the work being done. I don't think anything that Byford is doing in isolation is revolutionary, but the fact he is offering clear leadership and good public relations is almost unseen in modern day transport operations!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Not being a close follower of US rail I wonder to what extent the NY Subway has been starved of funds while the mega project to bring the Long Island Rail Road into Grand Central has been going on.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The subway was effectively starved of investment from the end of WW2 ! (rapid transit was deemed old fashioned in the bright age of Freeways and suburban expansion) , capital funding (what there was) kept the system operating after a manner (there were considerable new fleets put into service in the 1960's and some in the 1970's , - but they replaced very old cars dating back further than the 1920's)

For all sorts of reasons , NYC fell on very hard times in the early 1970's , and the subway deteriorated to an unimaginable level , most of which was recovered in the 1980's under a major injection of money - but the legacy signalling systems were only partly replaced , such that even today much signalling control is still localised in "towers" ...! (though overseen from a central control office)

Meanwhile , the system has bounced back in the light of a much better performing city and regional economy , in terms of ridership , and population has increased from the dark days of the late 20thC. Now a 115 years old on the ex IRT system and very old on the IND / BMT divisions , so a huge upgrade is indeed planned , and rightly dealing with critical high capacity signalling and fleet replacement.

I profess to be fascinated by the system , it is in much better shape than it was (I last visited in October) , and much of the neglect of suburban stations has been impressively corrected, some of the Manhattan and Brooklyn stations , feel like jails though - very basic , uplifted though by much better lighting than there was , and careful restoration of the original tile work etc.

 

[Jozhua]

Not being a close follower of US rail I wonder to what extent the NY Subway has been starved of funds while the mega project to bring the Long Island Rail Road into Grand Central has been going on.

Some of the signalling systems are over 100 years old, relays and levers from the 1930's aren't uncommon. Fascinating video by the MTA on the subject:

The subway was effectively starved of investment from the end of WW2 ! (rapid transit was deemed old fashioned in the bright age of Freeways and suburban expansion) , capital funding (what there was) kept the system operating after a manner (there were considerable new fleets put into service in the 1960's and some in the 1970's , - but they replaced very old cars dating back further than the 1920's)

For all sorts of reasons , NYC fell on very hard times in the early 1970's , and the subway deteriorated to an unimaginable level , most of which was recovered in the 1980's under a major injection of money - but the legacy signalling systems were only partly replaced , such that even today much signalling control is still localised in "towers" ...! (though overseen from a central control office)

Meanwhile , the system has bounced back in the light of a much better performing city and regional economy , in terms of ridership , and population has increased from the dark days of the late 20thC. Now a 115 years old on the ex IRT system and very old on the IND / BMT divisions , so a huge upgrade is indeed planned , and rightly dealing with critical high capacity signalling and fleet replacement.

I profess to be fascinated by the system , it is in much better shape than it was (I last visited in October) , and much of the neglect of suburban stations has been impressively corrected, some of the Manhattan and Brooklyn stations , feel like jails though - very basic , uplifted though by much better lighting than there was , and careful restoration of the original tile work etc.

The system is very fascinating, I think it's age isn't necessarily a bad thing, just the state of repair. As a basis for a rapid transit system, New York has a much better leg up than London, with bigger tunnels, express tracks and plenty of turnback points and flexibility. The tunnels are bigger, allowing for wider trains with air-con. It's also generally quieter than the underground. If they maintain it to a high standard like the underground, then the system could be truly world leading again!

I do have to confess I find something fun about the trains bouncing around with flickering lights and massive arcs coming off the 3rd rail. Although, I doubt the 3rd rail arcs will stop anytime soon!

Metro North seems to be in good shape, not tried out the LIRR, although on my next trip from JFK to Manhattan I might make an excuse to change to it from Jamaica vs the E, even if it does take me a bit longer.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Some of the signalling systems are over 100 years old, relays and levers from the 1930's aren't uncommon. Fascinating video by the MTA on the subject:

The system is very fascinating, I think it's age isn't necessarily a bad thing, just the state of repair. As a basis for a rapid transit system, New York has a much better leg up than London, with bigger tunnels, express tracks and plenty of turnback points and flexibility. The tunnels are bigger, allowing for wider trains with air-con. It's also generally quieter than the underground. If they maintain it to a high standard like the underground, then the system could be truly world leading again!

I do have to confess I find something fun about the trains bouncing around with flickering lights and massive arcs coming off the 3rd rail. Although, I doubt the 3rd rail arcs will stop anytime soon!

Metro North seems to be in good shape, not tried out the LIRR, although on my next trip from JFK to Manhattan I might make an excuse to change to it from Jamaica vs the E, even if it does take me a bit longer.

The far sighted City Fathers who build the original (IRT) system from 1904 , and followed through with the Dual Contracts from 1913 or so , set the footprint for the huge urban growth and commercial developments in Manhattan (and Central Brooklyn) , the city then came back in the 1930's and built the IND - which featured fast 4 track routes up major avenues like 6th and 8th , and built on the 3 track and "El" legacies of the IRT / BMT. Massive undertaking , and all backed by City Hall financially - the IND in particular was a real transit showpiece when opened and delivered masses of capacity and speeded up suburban journeys no end. Had WW2 not come along there were developed plans for even greater expansion.

I suspect CBTC will develop these incredibly valuable corridors even more , though the issues of congestion charging etc will force it through.

One of the things I noticed this year is the "dialogue" with customers - notices tell you how much plain line has been installed , which junctions are planned for upgrade and which "problem switches" are being dealt with , as well as all the normal stuff on station rehabs etc.

London feels plush and comfy , cosy even - NY is pretty efficient , brash and a bit basic - I would call it a "a subway with attitude"

Plus they run superb vintage trains at certain times of the year - especially around Xmas - and at no extra charge bar your $2.75 swipe in. Much better than London on that basis which costs a bit more than that !

 

[MarkyT]

Some of the signalling systems are over 100 years old, relays and levers from the 1930's aren't uncommon.
...
The system is very fascinating, I think it's age isn't necessarily a bad thing, just the state of repair. As a basis for a rapid transit system, New York has a much better leg up than London, with bigger tunnels, express tracks and plenty of turnback points and flexibility. The tunnels are bigger, allowing for wider trains with air-con. It's also generally quieter than the underground. If they maintain it to a high standard like the underground, then the system could be truly world leading again! I do have to confess I find something fun about the trains bouncing around with flickering lights and massive arcs coming off the 3rd rail. Although, I doubt the 3rd rail arcs will stop anytime soon! Metro North seems to be in good shape, not tried out the LIRR, although on my next trip from JFK to Manhattan I might make an excuse to change to it from Jamaica vs the E, even if it does take me a bit longer.

Old electro-mechanical signalling systems can be maintained in a safe state fairly indefinitely, as both Network Rail and London Underground have proved in the UK. The problem is the increasing cost and difficulty of doing this as the overall population of the older equipment withers, and spares and skills become increasingly difficult to source. Also, while much of the equipment such as relays and interlocking machine components are swappable easily under maintenance, eventually, major items such as interlocking wiring and tunnel cabling degrade to the extent that widespread renewals become neccesary. That kind of work can be extraordinarily disruptive and a move to more modern technology becomes highly desirable instead to avoid this. Modern metro signalling uses completely different track to train communication and train detection techniques, and has far less cabling, which allow the new equipment to be installed and set to work for extensive soak testing well before commissioning while operations continue under the old systems until a very quick and easy changeover occurs, once engineers are happy. The only elements of the new system that cannot be connected up for testing beforehand are the point (switch) machines, which clearly must remain connected to the old system until the changeover! While actual stage resignalling dates have been very 'flexible' in London for the TfL subsurface lines resignalling for example, the actual changeover weekends have occured with very little trouble once a new date has been agreed, due largely to the fact that most of the new equipment has been powered up quietly proving itself in situ often for months beforehand. This technique has effectively eliminated much of the early life surge in failures typical in large complex systems that occur immediately following commissioning as part of the 'bathtub' performance curve. CBTC is the right way to go in NY and there is a large, soon to be idle skilled resource available in US signalling suppliers as a result of the federally mandated and soon to be completed PTC programme on the main passenger and freight railroads; a one time opportunity to exploit this large bubble of computer signalling expertise before it starts to disappear from the industry.

 

[fishtastic]

If the MTA is short of funds this video goes a long way in explaining why.

I hate this kind of thing when I see it in the UK, but the mix of people and how brazen they are in this video is quite shocking.

 

[Bald Rick]

One of the things I noticed this year is the "dialogue" with customers - notices tell you how much plain line has been installed , which junctions are planned for upgrade and which "problem switches" are being dealt with , as well as all the normal stuff on station rehabs etc.

Mr Byford all over.

 

[Mag_seven]

I hate this kind of thing when I see it in the UK, but the mix of people and how brazen they are in this video is quite shocking.

Yes its like they are simultaneously sticking two fingers up at those that have paid their fare.

 

[Jozhua]

The far sighted City Fathers who build the original (IRT) system from 1904 , and followed through with the Dual Contracts from 1913 or so , set the footprint for the huge urban growth and commercial developments in Manhattan (and Central Brooklyn) , the city then came back in the 1930's and built the IND - which featured fast 4 track routes up major avenues like 6th and 8th , and built on the 3 track and "El" legacies of the IRT / BMT. Massive undertaking , and all backed by City Hall financially - the IND in particular was a real transit showpiece when opened and delivered masses of capacity and speeded up suburban journeys no end. Had WW2 not come along there were developed plans for even greater expansion.

I suspect CBTC will develop these incredibly valuable corridors even more , though the issues of congestion charging etc will force it through.

One of the things I noticed this year is the "dialogue" with customers - notices tell you how much plain line has been installed , which junctions are planned for upgrade and which "problem switches" are being dealt with , as well as all the normal stuff on station rehabs etc.

London feels plush and comfy , cosy even - NY is pretty efficient , brash and a bit basic - I would call it a "a subway with attitude"

Plus they run superb vintage trains at certain times of the year - especially around Xmas - and at no extra charge bar your $2.75 swipe in. Much better than London on that basis which costs a bit more than that !

I really do think Byford's willingness to communicate with customers is fantastic, I think people are surprisingly receptive when they understand the actual reasons why things are like they are.

I actually kind of like the vibe of the New York Subway in comparison to the tube in London. Bit basic and got an attitude, but hey! I always feel a bit out of place in London, I don't quite know why, but New York feels more welcoming. The crazy people on the subway and all!

Old electro-mechanical signalling systems can be maintained in a safe state fairly indefinitely, as both Network Rail and London Underground have proved in the UK. The problem is the increasing cost and difficulty of doing this as the overall population of the older equipment withers, and spares and skills become increasingly difficult to source. Also, while much of the equipment such as relays and interlocking machine components are swappable easily under maintenance, eventually, major items such as interlocking wiring and tunnel cabling degrade to the extent that widespread renewals become neccesary. That kind of work can be extraordinarily disruptive and a move to more modern technology becomes highly desirable instead to avoid this. Modern metro signalling uses completely different track to train communication and train detection techniques, and has far less cabling, which allow the new equipment to be installed and set to work for extensive soak testing well before commissioning while operations continue under the old systems until a very quick and easy changeover occurs, once engineers are happy. The only elements of the new system that cannot be connected up for testing beforehand are the point (switch) machines, which clearly must remain connected to the old system until the changeover! While actual stage resignalling dates have been very 'flexible' in London for the TfL subsurface lines resignalling for example, the actual changeover weekends have occured with very little trouble once a new date has been agreed, due largely to the fact that most of the new equipment has been powered up quietly proving itself in situ often for months beforehand. This technique has effectively eliminated much of the early life surge in failures typical in large complex systems that occur immediately following commissioning as part of the 'bathub' performance curve. CBTC is the right way to go in NY and there is a large, soon to be idle skilled resource available in US signalling suppliers as a result of the federally mandated and soon to be completed PTC programme on the main passenger and freight railroads; a one time opportunity to exploit this large bubble of computer signalling expertise before it starts to disappear from the industry.

That makes a lot of sense, it's good to keep experienced labour force working on similar projects!

If the MTA is short of funds this video goes a long way in explaining why.

I hate this kind of thing when I see it in the UK, but the mix of people and how brazen they are in this video is quite shocking.

They've just launched a controversial campaign of reducing fare reduction by hiring something like 500 police officers. Unfortunately, these police officers seem to be responding with too much force and jail time for those who jump the barriers. Why they don't just get revenue protection officers who just hand out fixed penalties, I have no idea. Alarming the emergency exits so people don't abuse them would be a good start, hopefully the new OMNY ticketing system will allow revenue protection to just go down the train and check that people have tapped in properly.

 

[Starmill]

They've just launched a controversial campaign of reducing fare reduction by hiring something like 500 police officers. Unfortunately, these police officers seem to be responding with too much force and jail time for those who jump the barriers. Why they don't just get revenue protection officers who just hand out fixed penalties, I have no idea.

Paying for police officers and jailing fare evaders is a very American approach. I can't imagine that the sort of low-value fares this protects makes it massively worthwhile financially to go down this route. It does generate them a sense of good American fairness though I guess to ensure that people on the lowest incomes (the ones who are actually using the Subway) avoiding $2.75 fare are locked up for it.

 

[Jozhua]

Paying for police officers and jailing fare evaders is a very American approach. I can't imagine that the sort of low-value fares this protects makes it massively worthwhile financially to go down this route. It does generate them a sense of good American fairness though I guess to ensure that people on the lowest incomes (the ones who are actually using the Subway) avoiding $2.75 fare are locked up for it.

Totally agree ^

Prisons are incredibly expensive to run. Training police officers is expensive too, even if there is a questionable amount of that involved

Really the MTA should do their best to recover the funds lost by fare dodging, not spend loads of money punishing people over $2.75. I think most people from the UK and Europe would find this very alien, typically a fixed fine/fee is given out, which is a fair way of dealing with the issue. Police only get involved if the fare-dodger starts to not co-operate or respond.

I've seen a lot of people from NY (& states generally) say they don't think people should have to pay fares at all and just expect a good service for nothing. I think that's a bit ridiculous, but I will agree that the MTA's response to the issue has been rubbish...

 

[MarkyT]

Are theses new subway police armed? How long before we see an offender shot for running away after such a non violent fraud, or merely 'riding while black'? What about 'collateral damage' in such circumstances? Seems VERY American at the moment...

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing that surprises me about the NY Metro is that it isn't DOO - what true metros the world over have guards? Would save an absolute packet.

(Edit: other benefits of guards don't apply as the job, unlike the UK mainline, is quite literally just to sit in the dedicated centre cab doing the doors, though I suppose there is a potential emergency role there too)

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Are theses new subway police armed? How long before we see an offender shot for running away after such a non violent fraud, or merely 'riding while black'? What about 'collateral damage' in such circumstances? Seems VERY American at the moment...

Pretty sure that the CBTC fitted Canarsie - 14th St ("L" line) is DOO ....

The conductors do a good job on providing a public face in my experience , I would still be standing waiting for the non existent "B" line at Broadway-Lafayette , had a c/r not put me right (no "B" on a Sat pm) , AND he opened the train up for to get on , then left the cab and gave me clear instructions as to where and how to change for the "Q" line. Plus the older trains with manual announcements have seriously good NYC announcements many cases - a bit more than "the next station is.." ....my personal views of course.

 

[iphone76]

Pretty sure that the CBTC fitted Canarsie - 14th St ("L" line) is DOO ....

The conductors do a good job on providing a public face in my experience , I would still be standing waiting for the non existent "B" line at Broadway-Lafayette , had a c/r not put me right (no "B" on a Sat pm) , AND he opened the train up for to get on , then left the cab and gave me clear instructions as to where and how to change for the "Q" line. Plus the older trains with manual announcements have seriously good NYC announcements many cases - a bit more than "the next station is.." ....my personal views of course.

They did try a DOO experiment on the L line on nights and weekends, however, they were reintroduced in 2005. Some of the shorter shuttle lines like the G and M are DOO on the weekend.

 

[Jozhua]

Are theses new subway police armed? How long before we see an offender shot for running away after such a non violent fraud, or merely 'riding while black'? What about 'collateral damage' in such circumstances? Seems VERY American at the moment...

Yes. And pretty sure someone has had literally 8 police officers point a gun at them and drag them off their seat...

It's a shame, because I thought New York was better than that.

One thing that surprises me about the NY Metro is that it isn't DOO - what true metros the world over have guards? Would save an absolute packet.

(Edit: other benefits of guards don't apply as the job, unlike the UK mainline, is quite literally just to sit in the dedicated centre cab doing the doors, though I suppose there is a potential emergency role there too)

That is quite surprising coming to think of it! I wonder whether trying to get rid of those extra staff might cause tensions with the unions though...

However, I did mention I thought they should have people going down the train checking if people have swiped in or not, so the guards could stay on the train and check fares and also fulfil a safety role which might be more useful. Obviously, that would be dependent on them having cards that can validate their swiping in within the last couple of hours.

 

[markymark2000]

If the MTA is short of funds this video goes a long way in explaining why.

I hate this kind of thing when I see it in the UK, but the mix of people and how brazen they are in this video is quite shocking.

It seems to me the emergency gate is the biggest issue. Jumping the barriers is an issue as is the people selling 2$ ride swipes but why not tackle the biggest issue. Could you not link the emergency gate with the fire alarm and issue staff gate passes so they aren't using the emergency gate (or make the emergency gate only openable from the station control room). The less the emergency gate is open, the more people will be faced with the barriers.
I think that will then make people think about their ways a bit more. If the gate is open and you don't have to walk through the gate, why wouldn't you. It's a free ride (my morals and upbringing says this is wrong but not everyone is taught fare dodging is bad).

Secondly, force people to tap/swipe out. This is then analytical data for the MTA and the barriers can't be moved backwards to avoid the fare, you have to jump over them leaving only the more athletic people who can properly jump over the barriers.

 

[Jozhua]

It seems to me the emergency gate is the biggest issue. Jumping the barriers is an issue as is the people selling 2$ ride swipes but why not tackle the biggest issue. Could you not link the emergency gate with the fire alarm and issue staff gate passes so they aren't using the emergency gate (or make the emergency gate only openable from the station control room). The less the emergency gate is open, the more people will be faced with the barriers.
I think that will then make people think about their ways a bit more. If the gate is open and you don't have to walk through the gate, why wouldn't you. It's a free ride (my morals and upbringing says this is wrong but not everyone is taught fare dodging is bad).

Secondly, force people to tap/swipe out. This is then analytical data for the MTA and the barriers can't be moved backwards to avoid the fare, you have to jump over them leaving only the more athletic people who can properly jump over the barriers.

The emergency gate is 100% the biggest issue.

I saw someone look really entitled and angry when she couldn't get someone to open the gate for her, she reached through the bars and pushed the emergency exit door open from the other side in the end!

Having people have to swipe out would also be a great solution, with the current system, as soon as you're through the barriers, you're in the clear, no distinction between you and any other traveller. Travellers are so brazen because the gates is the small thing between them and a free ride. If there were multiple stages they could be caught through the process, that would keep them on edge more and discourage many from doing it!

 

[nlogax]

The emergency gate is 100% the biggest issue.

Absolutely. Lost count of the number of people who brazenly charge through the gates without a second thought while we Metrocard-toting idiots look on feeling somewhat irked. Even the presence of NYPD doesn't seem to be a deterrent.

 

[WideRanger]

One thing that surprises me about the NY Metro is that it isn't DOO - what true metros the world over have guards? Would save an absolute packet.

(Edit: other benefits of guards don't apply as the job, unlike the UK mainline, is quite literally just to sit in the dedicated centre cab doing the doors, though I suppose there is a potential emergency role there too)

A lot (but not all) of the Tokyo underground systems have guards.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having people have to swipe out would also be a great solution, with the current system, as soon as you're through the barriers, you're in the clear, no distinction between you and any other traveller. Travellers are so brazen because the gates is the small thing between them and a free ride. If there were multiple stages they could be caught through the process, that would keep them on edge more and discourage many from doing it!

Given that the Metrocard system is rather dated, replacing it with a system that keeps the barriers but requires passengers to carry proof of purchase as well as use the barriers (a la most other systems worldwide) so checks could be carried out anywhere in the system could make sense. Like an Oyster touch-in, a touch-in could have a time limit.

 

[axlecounter]

I must admit I've been a week in NY and never realised that metros have a guard!