MSE thread: "Why the HELL is it wrong to pay ON the Train???"

[Oswyntail]

This has been discussed many times before on here, but basically potential revenue is an concept that may or may not be there, but delay costs are real and under the nose of the bean-counters. So, any arguments saying that X amount might be saved in the future are not going to cut any ice when trying to justify the £10000 cost of the delay minutes spent dragging the fare dodger off the train at Reading.

Doesn't the TOC bill the dodger for that?

 

[Flamingo]

Doesn't the TOC bill the dodger for that?

What do you think? Most of the time, the only action taken is to kick them off the station, sometimes not even that.

 

[bb21]

What annoys me regarding this is that TOC's use the issue of fare evasion as a reason why fares go up.

When we all know that if everyone paid their fare the prices would still go up. Put this on top of their active non encouragement for you guys to collect revenue really does treat the the passenger as a bit of an idiot.

That is not the main reason for fares going up. This is mainly down to a shift in funding investment in the Railways from the taxpayer to the fare-payer.

 

[VauxhallandI]

That is not the main reason for fares going up. This is mainly down to a shift in funding investment in the Railways from the taxpayer to the fare-payer.

Very true but it is dragged up regularly as a big hole in revenue

 

[Ferret]

Very true but it is dragged up regularly as a big hole in revenue

The railway could do a lot more to combat fare evasion though.......

 

[island]

East Coast advise pax that pax with invalid tickets will be charged a brand new ticket at the full anytime price - they do tell pax how much this would this would be though.

It changed in November. A passenger on an advance ticket on the wrong train has to buy a new ticket at the price they would have paid at the booking office before joining the train.

Some TOC's (like FGW) are missing a trick at smaller but busy stations where there are No TVM's and limited/no ticket office opening, if TVM's were to be installed at these stations it would give more opportunity for passengers to buy before boarding rather than chance whether the Guard comes through (controversially it may also allow those stations to be added to Penalty fare schemes)

Neath, Stonehouse, Port Talbot Parkway, and anywhere beyond Exeter would be good places to start in FGW-land.

 

[Greenback]

Neath and Port Talbot Parkway are operated by ATW.

The former has a TVM and the ticket office is meant to be staffed from 0530-1830. It also has barriers, or so I am told by an acquaintance who works there!

Port Talbot Parkway, however, does not have a TVM yet.

 

[221129]

i have seen 2 occaisions where fare evaders have been removed and the train held.

Once at Exeter St Davids as the Fare Dodger admitted everything about how he was avoiding the TM and how he had just been released from Police Custody! And was travelling to a Court Appearence! At Exeter TM Advised said person to leave and buy a ticket. He refused BTP called and he left quietly.

Then on Tuesday my train pulled into Weston SM and was greeted by at least 6 Police officers (Two of which were Armed!!) Which seemed overkill!!

 

[telstarbox]

It changed in November. A passenger on an advance ticket on the wrong train has to buy a new ticket at the price they would have paid at the booking office before joining the train.

Can that include splits etc if requested by the passenger?

 

[wintonian]

Can that include splits etc if requested by the passenger?

Q07 – If customers are found to be travelling not on their booked train (but on the correct date and correct Train Company), what fare will they be required to buy on board the train

A: The fare that would have applied had they purchased it at the station for travel on that train immediately before the start of the journey. If required a return fare can be sold.

Railcard discounts are allowed if the original Advance fare was Railcard discounted and the Railcard is held at the time of travel.

Make of that what you will - does the term 'fare' only apply in the singular or the plural as well?
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i have seen 2 occaisions where fare evaders have been removed and the train held.

Once at Exeter St Davids as the Fare Dodger admitted everything about how he was avoiding the TM and how he had just been released from Police Custody! And was travelling to a Court Appearence!

Perhaps they wanted a free taxi ride there? :roll:

 

[VauxhallandI]

The railway could do a lot more to combat fare evasion though.......

I find that the inspectors are far happier to sting a customer who is stood in First Class or in the First Class vestibule on a packed train with a standard class ticket than they are to even go on a Cheshunt via Seven Sisters service where there are no barriers and many a local traveller.

 

[craigwilson]

What confusion? It's quite simple that if there are ticket issuing facilities at the station then you use them before boarding or otherwise buy from the Guard on the train if there are no facilities!

Quite. Even at Northern Rail stations (e.g. Reddish North was the last of their stations I passed through) there's a sign next to the ticket window saying that if the ticket office is open you should buy before you board. The fact that Northern will often allow you to by on-train anyway is neither here nor there; a passenger that doesn't buy before when they could have done is leaving themselves wide open.

That is not the main reason for fares going up. This is mainly down to a shift in funding investment in the Railways from the taxpayer to the fare-payer.

That's fine, but if, as fare-payers, we're contributing a greater percentage toward the funding of the railway, then we expect a harder stance to be taken against those who don't pay. If the TOC doesn't (for all the reason stated above (e.g. delay minutes etc)) then they're just going to annoy the honest farepayers.

 

[tannedfrog]

What confusion? It's quite simple that if there are ticket issuing facilities at the station then you use them before boarding or otherwise buy from the Guard on the train if there are no facilities!

Perhaps with South West trains this is true, but with First Hull trains, passengers are encouraged (including by the departure boards) to buy onboard. Yet with First Capital Connect, they are likely to be penalised/prosecuted if they try. What's more, both TOCs have trains leaving from Kings X

 

[Yew]

Perhaps with South West trains this is true, but with First Hull trains, passengers are encouraged (including by the departure boards) to buy onboard. Yet with First Capital Connect, they are likely to be penalised/prosecuted if they try. What's more, both TOCs have trains leaving from Kings X

And of course, both have the same parent company, (and the same blue/purple colours) it wouldnt be unreasonable for someone not in the know to assume buying on board was first group policy, if they only had experience of FHT.

 

[221129]

Perhaps they wanted a free taxi ride there? :roll:

They were released from torquay for Fraud and travelling to court in Reading!

 

[Ferret]

I find that the inspectors are far happier to sting a customer who is stood in First Class or in the First Class vestibule on a packed train with a standard class ticket than they are to even go on a Cheshunt via Seven Sisters service where there are no barriers and many a local traveller.

Not a million miles away from what I was thinking - my local line is a free ride from late afternoon onwards - ticket offices shut, guards unable to do effective checks due to stations being so close together and only a handful of RPIs about. There are people who would happily buy tickets but can't when the TVMs are knackered. It seems laughable when you write it out like I have, but it's true!

 

[Flamingo]

Not a million miles away from what I was thinking - my local line is a free ride from late afternoon onwards - ticket offices shut, guards
unable to do effective checks due to stations being so close together and only a handful of RPIs about. There are people who would happily buy tickets but can't when the TVMs are knackered. It seems laughable when you write it out like I have, but it's true!

Couple with that a policy that tells us to avoid confrontation at all costs (and is written in such a way that the TOC can say we are in breach of the policy if we do get ****ted), and major earache over any delay which could be avoided by ignoring any irregularity, and there is a reason a lot view it as a free service.

However, I will also usually charge up passengers standing in First Class, as in the vast majority of cases there is space in Std class for them to go stand there, but they just won't unless threathned with a new ticket.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Couple with that a policy that tells us to avoid confrontation at all costs (and is written in such a way that the TOC can say we are in breach of the policy if we do get ****ted), and major earache over any delay which could be avoided by ignoring any irregularity, and there is a reason a lot view it as a free service.

However, I will also usually charge up passengers standing in First Class, as in the vast majority of cases there is space in Std class for them to go stand there, but they just won't unless threathned with a new ticket.

In my experience the whole train is hammered. It just stinks of get the people who will pay. Avoid the hoody with no ticket but the get the bloke in a suit that has one but just wants to be able to get on he train and be able to breathe!

 

[Paule23]

In my experience the whole train is hammered. It just stinks of get the people who will pay. Avoid the hoody with no ticket but the get the bloke in a suit that has one but just wants to be able to get on he train and be able to breathe!

Why is it any less reasonable to chase a man in a suit for an excess for using an area of the train he is no entitled to that a hoody who has no ticket? Both are defrauding the railways, the TOC and to a certain extent, fellow passengers. As a user of first class on occasion I am as upset by people using first class without a valid ticket as those people in standard class who have no ticket at all.

EVERYONE should pay the correct fare for their journey, I have little sympathy for people who have the wrong ticket, use the wrong train, travel in the wrong class, the list goes on and on. I have been travelling on the railways for 25 years and have never had a problem of being on the wrong train or in the wrong class, as I buy the right ticket, do not travel on an earlier or later train, and buy before I travel (where there are facilities). It's not rocket science after all.....

 

[VauxhallandI]

Why is it any less reasonable to chase a man in a suit for an excess for using an area of the train he is no entitled to that a hoody who has no ticket? Both are defrauding the railways, the TOC and to a certain extent, fellow passengers. As a user of first class on occasion I am as upset by people using first class without a valid ticket as those people in standard class who have no ticket at all.

EVERYONE should pay the correct fare for their journey, I have little sympathy for people who have the wrong ticket, use the wrong train, travel in the wrong class, the list goes on and on. I have been travelling on the railways for 25 years and have never had a problem of being on the wrong train or in the wrong class, as I buy the right ticket, do not travel on an earlier or later train, and buy before I travel (where there are facilities). It's not rocket science after all.....

So I should take the next train rather than stand in your vestibule behind a shut door?

Must really ruin your journey!

Do you really think it is better to be travelling for free?

 

[Mike395]

So I should take the next train rather than stand in your vestibule behind a shut door?

Must really ruin your journey!

Do you really think it is better to be travelling for free?

If you genuinely could not fit in Standard Class (not just "it's a bit crowded", physically not being able to comfortably fit), then your argument is fine. If however, you CAN go into Standard, even thoguh you have to stand in a semi-crowded space, then you shouldn't be in the First vestibule.

After all, where does the guard draw the line? If you stand there and think it's perfectly fine, then ten others see you doing it and come to join you (then blocking legitimate passage by FC ticket holders, for example to the toilets, or if FC is also full and there are FC standees) where do you draw the line? Would you say you are a special case?

 

[Westboy]

If you genuinely could not fit in Standard Class (not just "it's a bit crowded", physically not being able to comfortably fit), then your argument is fine. If however, you CAN go into Standard, even thoguh you have to stand in a semi-crowded space, then you shouldn't be in the First vestibule.

After all, where does the guard draw the line? If you stand there and think it's perfectly fine, then ten others see you doing it and come to join you (then blocking legitimate passage by FC ticket holders, for example to the toilets, or if FC is also full and there are FC standees) where do you draw the line? Would you say you are a special case?

Until I am asked to move. No TM on any train I have been on has ever seen fit to excess my ticket for standing in the FC vestibule.

I suspect most railway staff are well aware that a polite word is far more effective than the confrontational and punitive approach favored by some FC passengers.

As an aside, I have noticed a difference between "regular" FC passengers, who by and large don't give a toss and have more important things to worry about and the ocassional upgrader who seems to view their twice yearly trip in FC as an excuse to turn the snobbishness up to 11.

 

[455driver]

Until I am asked to move.

You shouldnt be there in the first place!

If I walked in your front door and started watching your telly (and drinking you beer) because you were upstairs putting the kids to bed, that would be okay until you asked me to leave would it?

Okay an extreme example but the same basic principle!

 

[VauxhallandI]

You shouldnt be there in the first place!

If I walked in your front door and started watching your telly (and drinking you beer) because you were upstairs putting the kids to bed, that would be okay until you asked me to leave would it?

Okay an extreme example but the same basic principle!

I'm talking about a suburban line from Hertford East for example.

No food, drink or anything else to be taken.

Nobody seems to think getting people without a ticket at all is a larger priority??

Especially as they will be repeat offenders whilst my almighty transgression will be once in a blue moon no doubt due to a rolling stock or NR cock up

 

[455driver]

Nobody seems to think getting people without a ticket at all is a larger priority?

So because somebody is committing a bigger crime (in your opinion) it is okay for you to commit a smaller one!

I will have to keep an eye on the local shoplifters and just nick lower value items, I will be okay then using your logic.
Strange outlook on life you have.

 

[VauxhallandI]

So because somebody is committing a bigger crime (in your opinion) it is okay for you to commit a smaller one!

I will have to keep an eye on the local shoplifters and just nick lower value items, I will be okay then using your logic.
Strange outlook on life you have.

I'm not sat in the FC area with a cigar nibbling on free sandwiches.

You really can't see the issue with trying to get to work on time standing in a vestibule as the others have 15-20 in them already

I would say you are living in cloud cuckoo land

It is nothing like shoplifting etc.

I have a ticket, a shoplifter isn't buying a packet of crisps but asking a multi pack

 

[Westboy]

I'm not sat in the FC area with a cigar nibbling on free sandwiches.

You really can't see the issue with trying to get to work on time standing in a vestibule as the others have 15-20 in them already

I would say you are living in cloud cuckoo land

Indeed.

I have NEVER had a comment from a FC passenger for stading in their vestibule outside the partition door. I don't expect that I ever will either, for the simple reason it has precisely zero impact on their journey or ability to enjoy the facilities they pay extra for. Meanwhile I slightly reduce my chances of gettig DVT standing hemmed in a cattle pen.

The particularly meanspirited and anal outlook shown in this thread by some is thankfully exceedingly rare in the real world- both passengers and staff.

 

[34D]

As an aside, I have noticed a difference between "regular" FC passengers, who by and large don't give a toss and have more important things to worry about and the ocassional upgrader who seems to view their twice yearly trip in FC as an excuse to turn the snobbishness up to 11.

Love it
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I'm talking about a suburban line from Hertford East for example.

Hasn't Hertford East been declassified recently?

 

[VauxhallandI]

Love it
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Hasn't Hertford East been declassified recently?

Well if it has nobody has bothered to tell the passengers.

Bedsides at Cheshunt it is difficult to tell where the train has come from.

Yes I'm sure the timetable would reveal all but with the best will in the world won't be carrying one around with me.

 

[Flamingo]

Indeed.

I have NEVER had a comment from a FC passenger for stading in their vestibule outside the partition door. I don't expect that I ever will either, for the simple reason it has precisely zero impact on their journey or ability to enjoy the facilities they pay extra for. Meanwhile I slightly reduce my chances of gettig DVT standing hemmed in a cattle pen.

The particularly meanspirited and anal outlook shown in this thread by some is thankfully exceedingly rare in the real world- both passengers and staff.

You might not have had it said to you (this is Britian after all), but the complaints come into the TOC's, and hardly a day goes past when I do keep First Class for people who paid the extra, that one of the passengers says "thank you" to me for doing it.

If you want to travel First Class, buy a first class ticket. Otherwise, what makes you any more special than everybody in Std class wh is abiding by the terms of their ticket?