MS&LR and MR working practices

[Tony Whittaker]

As a retired amateur local historian, I have been investigating a double crash/double runaway on the Midland Main LIne in Sept 1867 - you are welcome to have the writeup and use it in any way you wish. Briefly, a doubleheaded Liverpool to Birmingham cattle train ran into a stationary ballast train in Dove Holes Tunnel, killing a young girl being given a lift in the brakevan. The coupling to the locos snapped, leaving the train to run down backwards on the up line, as far as New Mills, where it collided with a Manchester-Buxton service, which just managed to start reversing and stayed on the tracks while its driver jumped off, making it the second runaway of the day. Four drovers on the cattle train died, as the cattle trucks derailed and piled up.

James Needham, driver of the pilot loco on the cattle train, testified at the inquest. As he lived in Gorton, we can surely assume he was working from Gorton shed, making him a MS&LR driver. The train had left Woodley Junction at about 4.55pm according to his testimony, though it was not mentioned whether the locos had worked through from Liverpool. They did stop at Chapel station and the second engine picked up water. No doubt several such water stops would be needed on the journey. As a livestock train, it would presumably run faster, and have higher priority, than most freight. Two locos would add to both the power and the braking needed for that.

The Midland had joined the Cheshire Lines Committee in 1866, and had also partnered with MS&LR in building the New Mills section of what would become the Midland Main Line to Manchester. Now they had direct access to Liverpool via the CLC, and were in the process of building a large freight depot on the dock road at Liverpool, which would open in 1868. So this freight flow from (likely) the docks, via CLC to New Mills, Derby and Birmingham was doubtless a growing traffic.

So I am assuming that on this cattle train, we apparently have MS&LR freight locos rather than MR, presumably 0-6-0s, double-heading over the Midland all the way to Birmingham. Perhaps next day, the same locos would have taken the empty cattletrucks back to a suitable storage siding somewhere to await another service. The locos would presumably have been one of other 0-6-0s eg the new Sacre design? (There is a lovely photo of one on Hayfield turntable in 1867). And in green livery, therefore looking very similar to MR 0-6-0s of the time, cabless and outside framed?

Please may I ask if you think these assumptions are reasonable and likely? Did MS&LR locos routinely work over the MR, as MR locos did on the MS&LR into Manchester? Or have any other observations or background on this time?

 

[Gloster]

I would be surprised if MS&L locos would run through to Birmingham. If Midland locos hadn’t come all the way from Liverpool or already taken over at Woodley, where I think the train reversed (*), then I doubt that MS&L locos would go far: probably Rowsley at the outside.

I don’t think that because the driver’s residence was Gorton he was definitely an MS&L man. A probability, but no more.

* - Unless Woodley Junction is one of those locations that has changed name. I take it as where the line from Northenden Junction joined the line from Romiley to Hyde Junction

 

[Senex]

According to a list of Great Central running powers, that company (under its original MS&LR name) had powers to work "Coal, Limestone, Lime, and Mineral" traffic over the Midland between New Mills Junction and Peak Forest under an agreement between the two companies of 7 November 1861 schedued to the Midland Railway (Rowsley and Buxton) Act 1862. The list dates from a little before WW1, by which time an ink correction shews these powers were no longer exercised. But clearly they had been, so MS&L drivers would known the Midland line as far as Peak Forest — but they did not have powers for cattle traffic. I can think of no reason under normal circumstances why MS&L locomotives should have been heading a Midland train over this section.

 

[Gloster]

A bit of checking shows that Rowsley Sidings did not open 1877. So that possibility disappears.

 

[Tony Whittaker]

I would be surprised if MS&L locos would run through to Birmingham. If Midland locos hadn’t come all the way from Liverpool or already taken over at Woodley, where I think the train reversed (*), then I doubt that MS&L locos would go far: probably Rowsley at the outside.

I don’t think that because the driver’s residence was Gorton he was definitely an MS&L man. A probability, but no more.

* - Unless Woodley Junction is one of those locations that has changed name. I take it as where the line from Northenden Junction joined the line from Romiley to Hyde Junction

Thanks so much. Yes, I assumed Woodley Junction was where it was later, and yes, a reversal, and perhaps loco swap could be done here.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2023 ==

According to a list of Great Central running powers, that company (under its original MS&LR name) had powers to work "Coal, Limestone, Lime, and Mineral" traffic over the Midland between New Mills Junction and Peak Forest under an agreement between the two companies of 7 November 1861 schedued to the Midland Railway (Rowsley and Buxton) Act 1862. The list dates from a little before WW1, by which time an ink correction shews these powers were no longer exercised. But clearly they had been, so MS&L drivers would known the Midland line as far as Peak Forest — but they did not have powers for cattle traffic. I can think of no reason under normal circumstances why MS&L locomotives should have been heading a Midland train over this section.

Thanks so much, very interesing. So as the ambitious Midland now had easy access to Liverpool as a Cheshire Lines member, they'd want to keep as much as possible in-house - ie their own locos and cattletrucks. So I wonder if under the separate sharing arrangements with the MS&LR, informally agreed as the lines to New Mills were complete, and formalised from 1870 as a joint committee, the Midland had rights to use Gorton shed, and base their own locos there? They'd want their own loco servicing facilities in the Manchester area, and presumably the Liverpool area too?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2023 ==

A bit of checking shows that Rowsley Sidings did not open 1877. So that possibility disappears.

So I wonder if under the separate sharing arrangements with the MS&LR, informally agreed as the lines to New Mills were complete, and formalised from 1870 as a joint committee, the Midland had rights to use Gorton shed, and base their own locos there? They'd want their own loco servicing facilities in the Manchester area, and presumably the Liverpool area too? So perhaps a Gorton-based driver could be an MR employee?

 

[30907]

Think this resolves the matter - MR loco and driver:

https://www.midlandrailway.org.uk/gallery/locomotives/

Belle Vue had opened in 1870 and previously to this the MR used the MSLR shed at Gorton and had 15 locos shedded there in December 1869.

 

[Tony Whittaker]

Thanks so much 30907. That certainly resolves the question! And thanks everyone.

Here, if anyone would like to see it, is the unfinished draft of the story.