MP calls for extra stop on West Coast service

[northwichcat]

David Morris, the MP for Morecambe and Lunesdale, believes that a direct link for Carnforth will help boost tourism and local industry:

http://www.itv.com/granada/carnforth-rail-link-call20147/

 

[WatcherZero]

A place a third the size of Penrith, sure theres a geographical gap in services at Carnforth but how many would really use it?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Didn't NR want to build platforms once more on the WCML at Carnforth, but Virgin said that they wouldn't stop?

 

[embers25]

To stop there would not only delay services but also requires new platforms and so it's almost like building a new station and certainly not financially viable based on likely patronage levels. There are many more deserving places if we are going to slow down trains such as Lichfield/Nuneaton/Milton Keynes and Lockerbie which all lost out during the speeding up and yet have much more case for fast through services than Carnforth!!!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

To be honest, I can't see the point... I severely doubt that there would be call even for TPE on the Manchester-Scotland runs to call, let alone any VT service. You notice how the MP says 'reopen the station...'. Shows how much he knows what he's on about!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Better use of money to fund better services to carnforth so good connections can be made at lancaster and preston surely? So a better local service with better links to rest of country

 

[radamfi]

Better use of money to fund better services to carnforth so good connections can be made at lancaster and preston surely? So a better local service with better links to rest of country

That's not the British way. Only direct services to London are considered important even if providing well planned connecting services is more sensible.

 

[cuccir]

I can appreciate the frustration of someone living in Carnforth having to travel to Lancaster or Oxenholme when the trains pass within yards of their local station.

But

That's a rail network for you.

 

[northwichcat]

I can appreciate the frustration of someone living in Carnforth having to travel to Lancaster or Oxenholme when the trains pass within yards of their local station.

But

That's a rail network for you.

Surly that's not as frustrating as to go to Warrington or beyond from Hartford and Winsford, where you have to go South to Crewe and then back North through the station you started from.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

That's not the British way. Only direct services to London are considered important even if providing well planned connecting services is more sensible.

Nope, that's just with towns that warrant a good direct, fast service, such as Tamworth and Nuneaton... :roll:

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I'll check the respective timetables, but with Kent Viaduct being closed, I think Carnforth has a few good connections, such as:
Carnforth 0908
Lancaster 0918
Lancaster 0938
Euston 1212

That's not bad...

 

[All Line Rover]

No, no, NO, NO, NO!

Carnforth is a tiny place! If Carnforth is granted a stop, everyone town will start asking for one at this rate!!!

Motherwell and Lockerbie should also be removed. As should Lichfield, Tamworth and Nuneaton.

A simple solution would be to provide a stopping service to these "minor" stations, but one that doesn't stop at stations which are frequently served by Virgin Trains (unlike London Midland's current stopping service, which takes ages since it stops at every station). A new service could run like this: Crewe > Stafford > Rugeley > Lichfield > Tamworth > Nuneaton > Watford (avoiding Northampton) > London Euston. Surely that would cut at least 45 minutes off the current Trent Valley stopping service?

A similar pattern could run on a Scotland service.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I wouldn't really call Nuneaton and Tamworth 'minor' - they are both larger than Stafford (and Crewe!) and have more connections than the former!

Further, your proposals would leave Rugby with no northbound (WCML) sevrices between about 0930 and 1700!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

David Morris, the MP for Morecambe and Lunesdale, believes that a direct link for Carnforth will help boost tourism and local industry:

That could be said about Garstang, but the WCML is not there to provide a service to facilitate tourism and local industry in small towns. I have previously argued the case about NOT re-opening any stations between Preston and Lancaster, as this will only be a check upon the raison d'etre for the fast uncluttered running of a high-speed route. To my mind, Carnforth would affect the line north of Lancaster in much the same way.

As far as I am concerned, Lancaster is the correct place to have the next station northwards from Preston, being a large town with industry, commerce and a University. It is a recognised transport hub for its hinterland.

Carnforth in my mind falls into the same category as Garstang as being a pleasant town to visit, with good road and bus links to Lancaster, but nothing more than this.

 

[radamfi]

A new service could run like this: Crewe > Stafford > Rugeley > Lichfield > Tamworth > Nuneaton > Watford (avoiding Northampton) > London Euston. Surely that would cut at least 45 minutes off the current Trent Valley stopping service?

Would there be paths available for that?

Would this service get enough demand to fill a Voyager (or even a Pendo) every hour?

Could you justify running this as well as the existing hourly Trent Valley LM service?

 

[323235]

No, no, NO, NO, NO!

Carnforth is a tiny place! If Carnforth is granted a stop, everyone town will start asking for one at this rate!!!

Motherwell and Lockerbie should also be removed. As should Lichfield, Tamworth and Nuneaton.

A simple solution would be to provide a stopping service to these "minor" stations, but one that doesn't stop at stations which are frequently served by Virgin Trains (unlike London Midland's current stopping service, which takes ages since it stops at every station). A new service could run like this: Crewe > Stafford > Rugeley > Lichfield > Tamworth > Nuneaton > Watford (avoiding Northampton) > London Euston. Surely that would cut at least 45 minutes off the current Trent Valley stopping service?

A similar pattern could run on a Scotland service.

For an additional Hourly LM service I would say :-

Stafford > Lichfield > Tamworth > Nuneaton > Rugby > Possibly Northampton if it has to go that way then Express to Euston Non Stop. I could also see the benefit of starting at Stoke and making use of one of the electrified sidings for layover or start at Crewe and run via Madeley.

I would also then like to see Wedgwood and Barleston receive some calls in the xx33 Crewe - Euston Stopper service

 

[All Line Rover]

I wouldn't really call Nuneaton and Tamworth 'minor' - they are both larger than Stafford (and Crewe!) and have more connections than the former!

First of all, I disagree that Nuneaton and Tamworth actually need frequent direct services to London.

Tamworth:
Tamworth [07:47] to Rugby [08:18] (LM Stopping Service)
Rugby [08:23] to London [09:13] (VT Fast Service)
Overall journey duration: 1h 26m (compared to 1h 57m on the LM stopping service).

A direct VT service from Tamworth to London takes 1h 10m - the current arrangement takes only 15 minutes longer!

Nuneaton:
Nuneaton [08:02] to Rugby [08:18] (LM Stopping Service)
Rugby [08:23] to London [09:13] (VT Fast Service)
Overall journey duration: 1h 11m (compared to 1h 42m on the LM stopping service).

A direct service from Nuneaton to London takes around 1h - the current arrangement takes only 10 minutes longer!

Introducing frequent direct services between Tamworth/Nuneaton and London would, in my opinion, be of no significant benefit compared to the current arrangement.

Withdrawing frequent direct services between Crewe/Stafford and London would significantly impact the journey duration to/from London and these stations.

Further, your proposals would leave Rugby with no northbound (WCML) sevrices between about 0930 and 1700!

Rugby to Crewe via Birmingham New Street takes only 15 minutes longer compared to Rugby to Crewe via Stoke on the direct London Midland service.

Rugby to Liverpool/Warrington and stations north thereof is slower via Stoke and Crewe on the London Midland service than via Birmingham New Street.

The only exception is Rugby to Manchester, which takes almost 30 minutes longer going via Birmingham New Street than via Stafford on the London Midland stopping service. Forcing all journeys between Rugby and Manchester to go via Birmingham would also significantly increase overcrowding on the Birmingham to Manchester route.

Therefore, I amend the "proposed" London Midland (or even Virgin Trains) service to: Crewe > Stoke > Stafford > Rugeley > Lichfield > Tamworth > Nuneaton > Rugby > Watford (avoiding Northampton) > London Euston.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Could you justify running this as well as the existing hourly Trent Valley LM service?

No, the "current" LM stopping service would be cut short, running between Northampton and London Euston only. The Crewe to Northampton via Stoke portion would be replaced by the "new" service.

 

[radamfi]

For an additional Hourly LM service I would say :-

Stafford > Lichfield > Tamworth > Nuneaton > Rugby > Possibly Northampton if it has to go that way then Express to Euston Non Stop.

I don't think this would satisfy the Nuneaton lobby unless it was operated by 125 mph trains and didn't go through Northampton.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

No, the "current" LM stopping service would be cut short, running between Northampton and London Euston only. The Crewe to Northampton via Stoke portion would be replaced by the "new" service.

And Alsager, Kidsgrove, Stoke, Stone, Stafford and Rugby, as well as Atherstone, all lose services?

 

[radamfi]

A direct service from Nuneaton to London takes around 1h - the current arrangement takes only 10 minutes longer!

Introducing frequent direct services between Tamworth/Nuneaton and London would, in my opinion, be of no significant benefit compared to the current arrangement.

This argument has already been presented to the Nuneaton lobby and been rejected.

 

[All Line Rover]

And Alsager, Kidsgrove, Stoke, Stone, Stafford and Rugby, as well as Atherstone, all lose services?

You can't please everyone. Alsager, Kidsgrove, Stone and Atherstone are all fairly small places - not everyone can have a direct service to London.

Furthermore, Alsager and Kidsgrove would still be served by the East Midlands Trains Crewe to Derby service (which is expected to be extended to 2 cars, and could be timed to connect with the "new" Trent Valley LM or VT service at Stoke).

Stoke, Stafford and Rugby would not lose any services. Please see my amended post above.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This argument has already been presented to the Nuneaton lobby and been rejected.

What, the argument that the current arrangement is good enough and that direct services are not needed?

Nuneaton is never going to get frequent "fast" direct services to London no matter how hard they try for the sake of 10 minutes!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Stoke, Stafford and Rugby would still lose services to them though...

Alsager would lose 50% of its services; Kidsgrove 33%; Stone 100%; Atherstone 100%...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What, the argument that the current arrangement is good enough and that direct services are not needed?

Nuneaton is never going to get frequent "fast" direct services to London no matter how hard they try for the sake of 10 minutes!

With a possible 2013 recast, it wouldn't surprise me if it happened again...

 

[All Line Rover]

With a possible 2013 recast, it wouldn't surprise me if it happened again...

It doesn't matter how many recasts they do - it doesn't change the fact that the WCML is jam packed between Rugby and London Euston and can't accommodate any extra services!

There is no space for an hourly "fast" Nuneaton to London service.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Why does the RUS classify it as 'may be difficult to accommodate' for paths rather than 'little or no growth'. AFAIK there is one path free via Weedon and some via Northampton. I would incorporate it into existing services anyway, not give it a brand new one!

 

[northwichcat]

The Stone line is expected to be taken off the Crewe-London service and added on as a Birmingham via Stone extension of the Manchester-Stoke service.

 

[All Line Rover]

I would incorporate it into existing services anyway, not give it a brand new one!

I imagine Virgin's opinion being this: "We'd rather have people from Nuneaton take 10 minutes longer to get to London to save adding 5 minutes extra to Liverpool/Manchester to London journeys."

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I imagine Virgin's opinion being this: "We'd rather have people from Nuneaton take 10 minutes longer to get to London to save adding 5 minutes extra to Liverpool/Manchester to London journeys."

Wow, didn't realise Virgin actually got to say whether they wanted to stop or not... :roll:

 

[philjo]

Provision should be made for trains from Oxenholme to call at Carnforth but it should probably be just the Windermere services that call there. It would greatly improve connections from Windermere and Kendal with grange, ulverston and barrow. The connections currently tend to just miss each other at Lancaster.
Maybe rather than build new platforms a link from the north to the existing platforms would work - the bridge with the Leeds line over the wcml could create grade separation..

It might allow a direct windermenre to skip ton or Leeds service by reversing at Carnforth.

 

[12CSVT]

There's probably justification for Glasgow / Edinburgh - Birmingham and TPE services stopping at Carnforth, but not the Euston services. Carnforth would be a useful interchange with the Barrow line.

Maybe it would be possible to re-open Garstang if there was a stretch of 4 track between Lancaster and Preston

 

[knight2004]

I actually quite like the slow train from London to crew via northants, rugby and stations via stoke
it's got good connections to manchester, cheap and never over crowded- i'm quite happy to add an hour and a bit to my journey if i save money virigin;s just a rip off and squashed sardines at all times

 

[IanPooleTrains]

No, no, NO, NO, NO!

Carnforth is a tiny place! If Carnforth is granted a stop, everyone town will start asking for one at this rate!!!

Motherwell and Lockerbie should also be removed. As should Lichfield, Tamworth and Nuneaton.

A simple solution would be to provide a stopping service to these "minor" stations, but one that doesn't stop at stations which are frequently served by Virgin Trains (unlike London Midland's current stopping service, which takes ages since it stops at every station). A new service could run like this: Crewe > Stafford > Rugeley > Lichfield > Tamworth > Nuneaton > Watford (avoiding Northampton) > London Euston. Surely that would cut at least 45 minutes off the current Trent Valley stopping service?

A similar pattern could run on a Scotland service.

I wouldn't really call Nuneaton and Tamworth 'minor' - they are both larger than Stafford (and Crewe!) and have more connections than the former!

Further, your proposals would leave Rugby with no northbound (WCML) sevrices between about 0930 and 1700!

Nope, that's just with towns that warrant a good direct, fast service, such as Tamworth and Nuneaton... :roll:

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I'll check the respective timetables, but with Kent Viaduct being closed, I think Carnforth has a few good connections, such as:
Carnforth 0908
Lancaster 0918
Lancaster 0938
Euston 1212

That's not bad...

My god, you're having an argument about places around me and I'm not involved in it

Lichfield, Tammy and Nunny already have a reasonable service and Stafford only has one train an hour in each direction that stops so Stafford would warrant an extra stop more than Tammy, Lichfield and Nuneaton if Virgin decided to do that

For an additional Hourly LM service I would say :-

Stafford > Lichfield > Tamworth > Nuneaton > Rugby > Possibly Northampton if it has to go that way then Express to Euston Non Stop. I could also see the benefit of starting at Stoke and making use of one of the electrified sidings for layover or start at Crewe and run via Madeley.

I would also then like to see Wedgwood and Barleston receive some calls in the xx33 Crewe - Euston Stopper service

Surely a better option, possibly, would be for the Stafford to Northampton service as you suggested but to accomodate the stations between Stafford and Stoke, why not have Northern Rail/East Midlands Trains pick up that section of the line?

Northern would probably be the better of the options and then offer a Stafford to Manchester service