Most Slack in timetable

[mralexn]

What is the most slack you have ever seen in a UK public train service working?

For me it would be when they closed reading early around new year, and the night riviera left paddington at 2100, and due into Penzance at 08:59
with around a 4 hour sit at exeter and another good hour at plymouth with more time on route it was given just under 12 hours to do a journey it could do in 6 max! ^^

can anyone else beat that?

 

[yorkie]

I don't think anyone can beat the Night Riviera for slack time. Unless a train that is scheduled for diversion goes via its normal route (but then that's not really slack, by definition).

A couple of days ago I got the 1355 York-King's Cross, we departed at 1404, and arrived at 1548 despite not being timed to arrive until 1555. So the non-stop train is timetabled for an average 94mph but averaged 109mph on that occasion. But that's nothing, really, compared to another train I saw last week, which was a Grand Central that departed King's Cross 39 minutes late, and had to wait time at Hartlepool and arrived into Sunderland about 4 minutes early. I doubt there's a GC train that has less than 30 minutes slack, but that one had a bit more than most!

I saw a Cross Country train be over an hour late in the Drem area and be almost on time by Birmingham New Street a couple of weeks ago.

 

[imagination]

Other than the sleepers, I believe there used to be a train from Newcastle to Stranraer which had about 50 minutes slack time at Carlisle?

 

[bradders1983]

The last London Kings Cross-Leeds train of the evening has quite a bit of slack time built in to account for possible diversions.

 

[fgwrich]

Obviously not as much in the way of slack time as the Night Rivera, but South West Trains Poole Stoppers does have a fair amount of slack, with waiting time in Southampton Central and Brockenhurst - Someone will be able to elaborate more than me on how long, but its usualy in the region of 15-20 minutes at Brockenhurst...

 

[ChrisCooper]

EMTs second Sheffield service has about 10mins wait at Derby northbound. They are due in about 10past but are normally a few mins early, usually having waited a few mins outside the station for a southbound Cross Country (05 past to New Street) to depart and a Northbound to arrive (itself usually early and booked a few mins wait), then wait until 18past. Southbounds though are booked at most 2 mins.

 

[tbtc]

I saw a Cross Country train be over an hour late in the Drem area and be almost on time by Birmingham New Street a couple of weeks ago

Thats an interesting example.

Whilst I know most enthusiasts tend to be against "slack", thats probably an example where I think it may be justified - once a train misses its slot at New Street it is going to struggle to regain time (without some further slack in the timetable).

My Voyager back from Leeds to Sheffield last week managed the journey in a little over half an hour (it was about fifteen/twenty late leaving Leeds in the evening), which shows what is possible, but it'd be sadistic to expect them all to do the journey in that time (given the number of other trains on the lines).

As an example of slack, I think there was a Virgin XC service to Weymouth a few years ago, last train of the evening, which was due to leave Bournemouth well before an SWT London - Weymouth service, but the timetable showed it getting overtaken by the SWT service and theoretically arriving after it - despite there being no scope for overtaking/ looping on that line - please correct me if this is wrong, but I remember something like it in one of the rail "comics"...
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EMTs second Sheffield service has about 10mins wait at Derby northbound

Yeah, the much-anticipated second London - Sheffield service ended up getting a weak welcome when it was actually announced and people realised it would run within ten minutes of the existing (faster) train.

Not EMT's fault, there's just not the spare paths to allow this service to run as fast as the main London - Sheffield

 

[button_boxer]

Southbounds though are booked at most 2 mins.

... though they run very slow between Ambergate and Derby following the service off the Matlock branch. The ones I'm most familiar with - the 18:27 from Sheffield is timetabled to take 32 minutes to Derby whereas the 18:35 takes 41. It definitely feels like a Derby to London service that happens to start from Sheffield rather than a true Sheffield to London service but I suspect that finding a better path would involve recasting the timetables from the ground up.

 

[wellhouse]

First TPE seem to have extraordinarily long dwell times everywhere, which must add up to significant slack from end to end;

I often catch the xx07 from Manchester Oxford Road, where the service lingers (often a crew change). A further loiter a couple of minutes later at Piccadilly (Trolley - why not do the crew change at the same time as the trolley?) I then normally change at Stalybridge for the Northern stopper to Slaithwaite, and am regularly served my pint, given change, and have taken my first sip in the Buffet before the doors close on the TPE departure.

Huddersfield and Dewsbury are both slow, and the wait is long at both Leeds and York (trolleys again, and crew)

I can appreciate the issues at Piccadilly awaiting a path across the station throat, and also congestion at Leeds, but why so long at every intermediate station?

 

[87015]

First TPE seem to have extraordinarily long dwell times everywhere, which must add up to significant slack from end to end;

Do TPE still run to 158 timings? That would explain the times being a doddle to keep to.

 

[ChrisCooper]

... though they run very slow between Ambergate and Derby following the service off the Matlock branch. The ones I'm most familiar with - the 18:27 from Sheffield is timetabled to take 32 minutes to Derby whereas the 18:35 takes 41. It definitely feels like a Derby to London service that happens to start from Sheffield rather than a true Sheffield to London service but I suspect that finding a better path would involve recasting the timetables from the ground up.

The problem with the MML is that it's very crowded at parts, so it's hard to fit new services in. There is no leaway at all south of Bedford due to the FCCs, with only one path free (the xx:45 from St Pancras). Wigston to Leicester is tight with the 6 passenger trains per hour (4 on the MML, 2 on the Nuneaton line) each way plus a fair bit of freight (and more to come) funnelled into 2 tracks. Trent Junction can be a bottleneck with the northbound Nottinghams and southbounds from Derby crossing each other on the flat, then 3 TPH more funnel in at Sheet Stores Junction onto 2 tracks. The southern approach to Derby is another bottleneck with the MML and the Cross Country line merging (I bet it's too much to think that the resignalling will allow parallel movements to and from the two routes), and then the 2 EMTs, the XCs to the North East and the Matlock service are sharing 2 tracks. At Cley Cross the Liverpool and Leeds services join in, then another big bottleneck at Dore where the south Trans-Pennine services join the 2 tracks (must be at least 8tph over that section), not helped by the fact that Westbound trans-pennines can get held on the mainline waiting for the single line section to be cleared.

I presume the xx:35s off Sheffied don't get that much use other than for those who've missed the xx:27 or those for Long Eaton, EM Parkway and Loughborough that the xx:27 doesn't call at, although for just over £10 more I see you can often get in earlier at Kings Cross than getting the slow St Pancras.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I put out an identical thread in late June, maybe this could be of assistance too

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=47619

 

[button_boxer]

The southern approach to Derby is another bottleneck with the MML and the Cross Country line merging (I bet it's too much to think that the resignalling will allow parallel movements to and from the two routes)

As far as I can tell Derby can already handle an arrival from the Birmingham direction and a departure towards Nottingham/MML at the same time, or departures both ways e.g. the Crewe and Nottingham services both at xx:40 (possibly only from certain combinations of platforms), but an arrival from the Nottingham direction blocks the Birmingham line both ways.

(This is purely from watching the comings and goings while waiting for trains at Derby, I don't have any inside information).
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I presume the xx:35s off Sheffied don't get that much use other than for those who've missed the xx:27 or those for Long Eaton, EM Parkway and Loughborough that the xx:27 doesn't call at, although for just over £10 more I see you can often get in earlier at Kings Cross than getting the slow St Pancras.

And the price-sensitive people who've found cheaper advances on the slower service.

 

[ChrisCooper]

As far as I can tell Derby can already handle an arrival from the Birmingham direction and a departure towards Nottingham/MML at the same time, or departures both ways e.g. the Crewe and Nottingham services both at xx:40 (possibly only from certain combinations of platforms), but an arrival from the Nottingham direction blocks the Birmingham line both ways.

(This is purely from watching the comings and goings while waiting for trains at Derby, I don't have any inside information).
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And the price-sensitive people who've found cheaper advances on the slower service.

An arrival from Birmigham into 1 or 2 won't conflict with a departure south on the MML from platform 2 or higher. Looking at Quail a departure from 1 or 2 towards Birmingham should be fine alongside a MML departure from 2 or higher. An MML arrival into 2 or higher is possible alongside an arrival from Birmingham into 1 or 2 as the up spondon (MML) is bi-directional from just past the depot. Not sure how often it's used though. Actually it's more flexable than I thought.

 

[exile]

I don't see what the fuss is about. I'd rather a train be scheduled 10 mins later if it can be on time more often as a result - think about interchanges.

 

[thefab444]

It's about getting a balance between punctuality and journey times. Add too much slack and you'll put people off, nobody wants to spend 3 minutes waiting at every station, as well as reduce the number of available paths on the network.

 

[Pen Mill]

Not a great amount but the 08:53 Weymouth-Gloucester has a 14 minute scheduled stop at Westbury.
I'd thought it was probably a crew change but then the same Guard/Conductor got back on Yesterday.

It then has a 13 minute "direction" change stop at Bristol TM

 

[Lrd]

Obviously not as much in the way of slack time as the Night Rivera, but South West Trains Poole Stoppers does have a fair amount of slack, with waiting time in Southampton Central and Brockenhurst - Someone will be able to elaborate more than me on how long, but its usualy in the region of 15-20 minutes at Brockenhurst...

About 20 minutes at Southampton Central and also 30 minutes at Brockenhurst!

 

[devon_metro]

The Night Riviera isn't so much slack.

Arriving into Penzance at 5am wouldn't benefit anybody, similarly who wants to be in Plymouth at 3am!

 

[shaun]

I remember around 6 years ago there was a Sunday Voyager going from Reading to Kensington Olympia scheduled for around 60 minutes. I was on one train and it made the journey in 30 minutes, reaching Ealing Broadway to slow for the junction in around 18 minutes! Granted it was running late, but what an experience (from someone who dislikes voyagers). I didn't think they were allowed to run at 125 on the GWML?


Also surely any Aberdeen/Dundee - Penzance service will experience alot of slack during it's many many stops en route. I'm sure it could shave at least an hour off the current timetable if allowed to run freely?

 

[Eagle]

The Night Riviera isn't so much slack.

Arriving into Penzance at 5am wouldn't benefit anybody, similarly who wants to be in Plymouth at 3am!

This is the reason why there aren't many sleepers left. The trains are too fast and there's not enough country.

 

[jon0844]

I don't see what the fuss is about. I'd rather a train be scheduled 10 mins later if it can be on time more often as a result - think about interchanges.

That's fine if your connection is at the terminus of that service, but I've been on many trains that are late nearly all of the way - then 'recover' at the end. The poor people who get off a train before its destination may well miss their connections.

 

[richw]

Not a great amount but the 08:53 Weymouth-Gloucester has a 14 minute scheduled stop at Westbury.
I'd thought it was probably a crew change but then the same Guard/Conductor got back on Yesterday.

It then has a 13 minute "direction" change stop at Bristol TM

do they not often add or remove a unit at westbury on the weymouths?

 

[thewolf]

I noticed that the off-peak xx07 New Street to Walsall semi-fast has 15 minutes to do Tame Bridge - Walsall, in the other direction its only 5, with the stopper (extra call at Bescot) only taking 7.

The XC Man Picc trains seem to have silly levels of extra time. Being a regular traveller between Birmingham and Stoke (and v.v), I have noticed that between New Street and Stoke of the two trains per hour - one takes 48 minutes, the other 57 - despite all calling at Wolves and Stafford along the way.

This journey usually includes 2 or 3 minutes wait at Wolverhampton and often (a frankly stupid) 5 or 6 minute (sometimes more) pause at Stafford.

Another one I've seen, more of a pathing issue I suspect - Whenever I make this journey the 'slow' way - going via Walsall and Rugeley - The LM Trent Valley service usually gets overtaken by a Pendolino as it arrives at Rugeley, a couple of miles up the line at Colwich Junction it then undertakes the Virgin service on the line into Stafford, once at Stafford the Pendolino goes trundling past again :roll:

 

[Pen Mill]

do they not often add or remove a unit at westbury on the weymouths?

Not on that service .
They did drop a 153 off on a Gloucester-Weymouth evening peak last week but there was no excess scheduled waiting time.

 

[tbtc]

The XC Man Picc trains seem to have silly levels of extra time. Being a regular traveller between Birmingham and Stoke (and v.v), I have noticed that between New Street and Stoke of the two trains per hour - one takes 48 minutes, the other 57 - despite all calling at Wolves and Stafford along the way.

This journey usually includes 2 or 3 minutes wait at Wolverhampton and often (a frankly stupid) 5 or 6 minute (sometimes more) pause at Stafford

Is this because they need to slot the half hourly XC service between the 20/40 minute Virgin service through Stoke?

(I genuinley don't know the answer, but the 20/40 minute Virgin service must cause a headache when trying to fit half hourly services around)

 

[Yorkswatcher]

The 06:25 Hull Trains hull to London service always has about a 12 min wait at Retford while East Coast trains thunder pass to get into Kings Cross at super speed.

 

[Deerfold]

The last London Kings Cross-Leeds train of the evening has quite a bit of slack time built in to account for possible diversions.

In my experience if there is no diversion it can save around 45 minutes on the timetabled 0246 arrival time.

Annoying when you've booked a taxi to meet you (local to us, not to Leeds).

The overnight journey on the Orient Express betwen Venice and Vienna took twice as long as the standard overnight service (but again, who wants to arrive in Vienna at 3am).

 

[TomJ93]

did Coventry to New Street in 18minutes today, usually timetabled for 23/21.

 

[The Planner]

You got lucky at Proof House then, you should do it in 19 odd without allowances anyway.