Most Overspecced Train

[mumrar]

In terms of permitted use in the UK, the Class 67 anyone? 125 mph capable but not enough wheels for the track to cope with it.

Actually given that the standard brakes can't cope with the Sleeper through the Highlands, and also because it stupidly hasn't got enough axles, you could probably claim equally that in some ways they're underspecced!

Why haven't 67s got enough axles for 125mph? They have the same number as a 91, or an HST powercar, but granted that power's split between two PCs.

 

[krus_aragon]

Why haven't 67s got enough axles for 125mph? They have the same number as a 91, or an HST powercar, but granted that power's split between two PCs.

I think it's weight per axle. An electric 91 will be lighter, and the HST spreads the motive power over twice as many axles.

 

[mumrar]

If that's the case then it's just a silly mistake considering Co-Co versions of this loco exist in Europe. Why can't people and companies in the UK especially not fulfill a simple brief without revisiting the drawing board or making a poor job and having to alter the spec. We've been running railways for getting on towards 200years. Why is it so utterly beyond reason??

 

[Royston Vasey]

Why haven't 67s got enough axles for 125mph? They have the same number as a 91, or an HST powercar, but granted that power's split between two PCs.

Sorry, what I meant was they are too heavy to allow 125 on the amount of axles they have. In the Uk at least!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Cl357's. A 100mph unit for a 75mph railway.

O L Leigh

Was this done to allow future cascading from c2c? I think that was a good decision by either DfT or the ROSCO, it maximises the future flexibility of the fleet.

 

[Nick W]

In terms of permitted use in the UK, the Class 67 anyone? 125 mph capable but not enough wheels for the track to cope with it.

But the Class 67 was perfectly specified for its original purpose, high-speed mail trains. You may lose acceleration by having a Bo-Bo configuration (2 wheers per axle) but this then saves energy once you get up to speed and are only topping up the energy lost by resistance and slight inclines.

The Class 67 is RA 8 (route availability) against RA 7 of Classes 91 and 66. This is perfectly understandable since engines and fuel tanks weight more than 25kV AC transformers, and the Class 67 has fewer wheels than the CO-CO class 66.

 

[poshbakerloo]

The 185s Transpennine trains have a top speed of 100Mph...On the route to Sheffield I'm sure they don't run faster than 60Mph...

 

[mbonwick]

No, but going up from Preston to Lancaster/Scotland they do get up to 100mph.

 

[Bayum]

No, but going up from Preston to Lancaster/Scotland they do get up to 100mph.

And it allows for faster acceleration over the pennines and hills... And i'm pretty sure as well on the ECML they get upto 90/100mph between York and Newcastle/Middlesbrough

 

[TEW]

But the Class 67 was perfectly specified for its original purpose, high-speed mail trains. You may lose acceleration by having a Bo-Bo configuration (2 wheers per axle) but this then saves energy once you get up to speed and are only topping up the energy lost by resistance and slight inclines.

The Class 67 is RA 8 (route availability) against RA 7 of Classes 91 and 66. This is perfectly understandable since engines and fuel tanks weight more than 25kV AC transformers, and the Class 67 has fewer wheels than the CO-CO class 66.

Class 67s are limited to 110mph now though.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Class 66 maybe?

3,300hp, and still can't pull any heavy freight whats the torque on the sheds anyway?

 

[87015]

But the Class 67 was perfectly specified for its original purpose, high-speed mail trains. You may lose acceleration by having a Bo-Bo configuration (2 wheers per axle) but this then saves energy once you get up to speed and are only topping up the energy lost by resistance and slight inclines.

Perfectly specified for what 125mph traffic? Gearing them for 100mph would have seemed a better idea so they could reach that speed quicker, AFAIK the 110mph mail sets were only electrically hauled.

 

[mbonwick]

Class 66 maybe?

3,300hp, and still can't pull any heavy freight whats the torque on the sheds anyway?

409kN at starting (I believe this is achieved by the wheels moving at actual speed + 10% - IE. slipping)

260kN continuous at 15.9mph

 

[The Planner]

Class 66 maybe?

3,300hp, and still can't pull any heavy freight whats the torque on the sheds anyway?

Define heavy ?? they tend to cope ok with the oil tank trains at 3000 tonnes. They are never going to do the heavy aggregate trains though.

 

[asylumxl]

They arent? I've seen a few hauling fairly long aggrigate trains through Luton from the Lafarge plant outside St Albans.

 

[mbonwick]

Besides, why do they need to? They were designed as a go-anywhere (pretty much) 75mph primarily intermodal loco.

For heavy haulage DBS has the 59s and 60s if required.

 

[The Planner]

They arent? I've seen a few hauling fairly long aggrigate trains through Luton from the Lafarge plant outside St Albans.

Cant see them doing the 4000+ tonne jobs out of the Mendips though.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Depends what tank workings are, with the Murco tanks, there are pictures of sheds on less tanks than the 60 runs so the 66 is capable of it, and in the north east I've heard some coal runs can't be a shed as it can't manage it compared to a 60.

And no, I can't imagine a 66 on the Hanson Jumbo!

 

[johnb]

Back to the original topic, it's surely got to be the 125mph Class 180s running stoppers for Northern? At least the Cornish HSTs get to go at 110 east of Taunton and 125 east of Reading...

 

[starrymarkb]

Class 66 maybe?

3,300hp, and still can't pull any heavy freight whats the torque on the sheds anyway?

Gearing

The Heavy Haul FL 66s, 59s and 60s have a max speed of 60mph and thus can pull more then the 75mph 66s

 

[37401]

On my last tour 87002 did a mini run to Ayr 5000hp and I think it only used about 500

 

[TrainBrain185]

The original question...the most over-specced train? Well, I would say despite it being introduced many years ago, I would say the Inter-City APT. This was hugely over-specced just by virtue of the hydro-kinetic braking system and tilt mechanism alone.

 

[bluebottle]

The original question...the most over-specced train? Well, I would say despite it being introduced many years ago, I would say the Inter-City APT. This was hugely over-specced just by virtue of the hydro-kinetic braking system and tilt mechanism alone.

Hydro kinetic brakes were necessary to stop from high speed without overheating the regular brakes and the tilt was necessary to maintain the high speed so I reckon you're wrong on both counts there.

 

[LondonLarry]

I've noticed the EPS speed boards on the WCML - what does EPS stand for?

I'd heard that the tilt was disabled on XC services on grounds of cost (can't remember if that was under Virgin XC or Arriva XC). I guess there was little opportunity to use it, except on services up the WCML and that bit between Reading and Didcot.

 

[Geezertronic]

I'd heard that the tilt was disabled on XC services on grounds of cost (can't remember if that was under Virgin XC or Arriva XC). I guess there was little opportunity to use it, except on services up the WCML and that bit between Reading and Didcot.

Arriva XC (as you call them ) disabled tilt on all of their inherited 221's (actually removed the mechanisms) but the 221's that VirginTrains still have do have the tilt mechanism on and apparently use it.

 

[LondonLarry]

Arriva XC (as you call them ) disabled tilt on all of their inherited 221's (actually removed the mechanisms) but the 221's that VirginTrains still have do have the tilt mechanism on and apparently use it.

I know a Bombardier engineer, but forgot when he'd told me!

The 221s still use their tilt on the WCML just like the 390s

 

[The Planner]

I've noticed the EPS speed boards on the WCML - what does EPS stand for?

I'd heard that the tilt was disabled on XC services on grounds of cost (can't remember if that was under Virgin XC or Arriva XC). I guess there was little opportunity to use it, except on services up the WCML and that bit between Reading and Didcot.

EPS = Enhanced Permissable Speed.

Reading and Didcot was never tilt enabled, there are no curves on it for a start !! It was Banbury to Oxford, and as far as Im aware was never "switched on".

 

[mathmo]

EPS = Enhanced Permissable Speed.

Reading and Didcot was never tilt enabled, there are no curves on it for a start !! It was Banbury to Oxford, and as far as Im aware was never "switched on".

As far as I'm aware (never travelled on it), it was: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/3666933.stm

 

[The Planner]

A short section of the line is HST 110mph boarded. The rest jumping from 90 to 95mph. Nothing is EPS. Maybe is was decided the track was capable of 110 without tilt.

 

[TrainBrain185]

Hydro kinetic brakes were necessary to stop from high speed without overheating the regular brakes and the tilt was necessary to maintain the high speed so I reckon you're wrong on both counts there.

The APT concept is still well advanced today even when compared to the current ECML Class 91 etc etc. Although the APT was originally designed for 140mph operation, even without the hydro kinetic braking being used, the regular brakes would not overheat as the driving cars used regenerative (Rheostatic) braking which was phased with the hydro kinetic system fitted to the passenger coaches. As for the tilt arrangement, it was used more importantly to keep the passenger coaches level on curves whilst maintaining a high speed. So hence I regard it even by todays current offerings over-specced, even though I stressed as mentioned in my original message "introduced a number of years ago"....

 

[LondonLarry]

EPS = Enhanced Permissable Speed.

Reading and Didcot was never tilt enabled, there are no curves on it for a start !! It was Banbury to Oxford, and as far as Im aware was never "switched on".

If I ask the right people, I can actually post something with a bit more truth in it!

Ayno Junction to Wolvecot was tilt enabled and used test area for Voyagers. No EPS was set up and Arriva decomissioned it when they took over the franchise.