Most Inappropriate Stock

[junglejames]

bullsh*t - I hate them because:

......An awful long list of very intelligent comments later....

QUOTE]

You know that, and I know that, but voyager lovers hate it when these points are made. So always try and tell us we only hate them because they are too short. (themselves not realising longer voyagers would be even more inappropriate).
Its like Pendy lovers hate it when valid bad points about pendys are mentioned, and so try and brush them off and tell us we only hate them because they replaced LHCS.
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This had absolutely nothing to do with Virgin and people should stop blaming them. The timetable that became known as Operation Princess was specified by the dft and this specification included replacing the HSTs. The Voyagers trains themselves were also specified by the DfT not Virgin and so we only ended up with 4/5 coach trains. Virgin tried very hard to convince the dft that this plan was not going to work and get this the order changed to 7 coach Voyagers but the dft would not listen and also would not allow Virgin to keep their HSTs in service after the new timetable started. Virgin had no say in this at all and any other TOC would have done the same as that's what they were required to do by the dft.

Eh. Virgin did specify the Voyagers. It was Virgins idea to do what they did. Virgin only just ordered enough coaches to cover the old ones. They kept saying it would lead to better services, but decided not to order enough to cover for expected increases in traffic. Yes Virgin eventually realised they had been stupid, but by then I think the SRA were so fed up with them, they refused to let them order the extra coaches.

Dont try and put all the blame onto the SRA. It was a lot virgins fault as well.

 

[districtline]

Eh. Virgin did specify the Voyagers. It was Virgins idea to do what they did. Virgin only just ordered enough coaches to cover the old ones. They kept saying it would lead to better services, but decided not to order enough to cover for expected increases in traffic. Yes Virgin eventually realised they had been stupid, but by then I think the SRA were so fed up with them, they refused to let them order the extra coaches.

Dont try and put all the blame onto the SRA. It was a lot virgins fault as well.

No, the dft specified the 4/5 coach Voyager trains, Virgin went to the dft to get them extended to 7 coaches but the dft wouldn't listen and so Virgin got stuck with the exact dft specification. It had nothing to do with the SRA as the SRA did not exist at the time. Virgin had not been stupid at all, in fact they had been very clever in working out that the dft specification would not work and tried to get the Voyagers to be 7 coahces but as I said, the dft would not listen to it. If the dft had listened to someone that actually knew what they were doing (like Virgin) then there wouldn't have been any need for Virgin to go to the SRA later.

 

[amcluesent]

'kettles' on ECML! Not at all appropriate...just saying

 

[DarloRich]

Was the dft in charge of the running of franchise tenders and stock specification when virgin won the xc franchise? Was it not some other body? I was not on the scene at that time

Frankly i dont care who ordered them - it doesnt change the fact that they are rubbish!

 

[Zoe]

Was the dft in charge of the running of franchise tenders and stock specification when virgin won the xc franchise? Was it not some other body? I was not on the scene at that time

It was OPRAF, they tended to take quite a hands off approach back then (for example the PUG2 plan for the WCML to 140 mph was not specified in the franchise tender but Virgin agreed this upgrade with Railtrack. I'm not sure if this approach is a good thing though as we saw that the WCML plan didn't work out. Since the days of OPRAF, the SRA and DfT have specified franchises quite strictly although this does seem to be changing for the new West Coast franchise. As for the Voyagers, from what I have read, by the time Chris Green joined Virgin the order had been comitted so even if he realized that they were too short, the order couldn't easily have been changed. The fact is though that even if the original decision for half length Voyagers based on double the frequency was justified, there have been ten years since then that has shown the trains are too short but nothing has been done other than the introduction of a few HSTs and the removal of the shop to allow a few extra seats in each coach.

 

[northwichcat]

A class 156 on a stranraer Glasgow service.

Why? Are they too small for that service?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Stranraer has average loadings of 11 beyond Girvan , so one believes.

 

[northwichcat]

Stranraer has average loadings of 11 beyond Girvan , so one believes.

So it probably should be a 153 running up to Stranraer then.

I was a bit suspicious that someone might be objecting to a 3 hour journey on a ScotRail 156, when really if that was the objection it'd be more a case of refurbishing the unit to make it suitable than a 156 actually not being suitable.

 

[yorksrob]

For me, 455's on weekend Waterloo - Reading runs, particularly when there were infinately more suitable CIG's and VEP's sitting around in the sidings at the time.

Oh yes, and a loco hauled CIG between Ashford and Hastings once, but it was certainly worth it for the novelty value

 

[Intercity]

3 car 158's on huddersfield wakefield runs with 10 passengers on,

whilst 2 car 158s run manchester-norwich.

 

[466.networkers]

Class 466 on peak Sheerness Line shuttles ...

And I'm not kidding.

Some days these are standing room only or worse after Queenborough with Swale and Kemsley to go ...

 

[a good off]

Voyagers on any XC service :-x

On a serious note, I agree!!! They are not fit for long distances.

 

[Minilad]

No, the dft specified the 4/5 coach Voyager trains, Virgin went to the dft to get them extended to 7 coaches but the dft wouldn't listen and so Virgin got stuck with the exact dft specification. It had nothing to do with the SRA as the SRA did not exist at the time. Virgin had not been stupid at all, in fact they had been very clever in working out that the dft specification would not work and tried to get the Voyagers to be 7 coahces but as I said, the dft would not listen to it. If the dft had listened to someone that actually knew what they were doing (like Virgin) then there wouldn't have been any need for Virgin to go to the SRA later.

Some rewriting of history there

 

[Blindtraveler]

170s to inverness? Gutless and crouded. A
use in future for 185s? Oh and as to voyagers, cut them up and bustitute us. Id rather go to brum on an opta solo or a dart than a 22x demu

 

[12CSVT]

Single 153s on the Cumbrian coast (especially on Sellafield commuter services), Ipswich to Cambridge, Crewe to Derby and any other route that could hardly be described as 'lightly loaded'.

 

[OuterDistant]

Ah yes, 153s when there's a race on at Uttoxeter. The police have been summoned quite a few times on race day because fights have broken out.

 

[Schnellzug]

bullsh*t - I hate them because:

1) they are sh*t (end of. NO argument!)
2) They are smelly. The smell of excrement in some of the vestibules is a disgrace. WHY is it not sorted out?
3) They are uncomfortable. What twisted, evil bar steward designed those seats. Was he a mini man? They are about 4 inches wide and 4 inches deep! They must have used the cheapest cardboard possible for the filling!
4) They are unsuitable for the services they run. I don’t care that some people only use them from Birmingham to Derby. I don’t. I use them for long distance travel. They are terrible. Why ship people to Libya to torture them - Put them on an XC Voyager at Edinburgh and by York they will confess to anything!
5) They smell - Not just of excrement but some non descript unpleasant odour.
6) They rattle (EVERYTHING rattles – try working n one. You can’t see your laptop screen sometimes)
7) They are packed – the idiots that ordered a 4 or 5 carriage train to replace a 7 or 8 carriage train should be shot. FFS surely the PR people thought that all the bull they spouted might get people to travel!
8) The people who designed and ordered these trains must not have actually tried them before they were let loose on us poor saps. They should simply be shot! (or made to travel for the rest of time out of BHM on a Friday night at 1700 to see just how stupid their ideas were. They can stand in the vestibule by the bog)
9) They are too short (see point 7)
10) Soon things will fall off them when the vibration becomes too much
11) EVERYTHING inside those things resonates at the same frequency. Could no one damp the bloody engine mounts? Is it beyond the whit of man to put a sodding anechoic plate between the floor and the engine?

they are not a patch on what they replaced. I am not some luddite but surely, SURELY, that was not the best train that we could come up with. What did they reject to buy those? Converted HAA Hoppers? High Speed Pacers? FFS!

Is it too much to ask for a nice, comfortable train? We USED to be able to make them – why cant we now?

I remember when Chris Green (someone who still seems to be pretty well respected) wrote in response to a piece in the early days after introduction, that had criticised the lack of gangways when two units were in multiple, "You will be glad to know that we won't be using them in multiple from the new timetable!!" So that solves that problem then.

Still, they have good acceleration. I like watching them; from the outside.

 

[142094]

Even if I had a whole Voyager to myself, I still wouldn't travel on it unless there was no other option. Apart from the smell (which varies from unit to unit), it is the whole atmosphere of the train - claustrophobic.

Thankfully I can get to most places without using one, and can find out the times of the HSTs rather easily.

 

[87015]

This had absolutely nothing to do with Virgin and people should stop blaming them. The timetable that became known as Operation Princess was specified by the dft and this specification included replacing the HSTs. The Voyagers trains themselves were also specified by the DfT not Virgin and so we only ended up with 4/5 coach trains. Virgin tried very hard to convince the dft that this plan was not going to work and get this the order changed to 7 coach Voyagers but the dft would not listen and also would not allow Virgin to keep their HSTs in service after the new timetable started. Virgin had no say in this at all and any other TOC would have done the same as that's what they were required to do by the dft.

Quoted for giggles.

 

[starrymarkb]

2 car pacer on the Exmouth - Exeter - Paignton service in the summer months... Absolutely packed - you're lucky if you are able to get on the train. This was our experience last year with our family holiday in Dawlish. How First Great Western thought that was a good idea I'll never know! They were also operating a single 153 unit and two 67's with MK2's or 1's I'm not sure.

I guess they hired in the 67's/carriages to help with the summer flow and the pacers/153 are sufficient at other times of the year.

Can't have been a good day for FGW - They usually try and ensure that 153s don't work the Devon Metro solo and that Pacers are doubled up during the summer - but best laid plans of mice and men.

Mind you if you said they are 67s helping out, this wasn't during carnival/airshow week was it? Normally FGW throw every thing they can at the service with hire-ins (According to the Timetable for the Airshow there was a pair of 159s assisting)

 

[northwichcat]

Just realised no-ones mentioned 185s on North/South TPE in this thread (except for saying that Voyagers would be suited to TPE.) The 185s are too small, the seating is sub-standard for end to end journeys and they don't have enough luggage space considering they're serving one major airport, an airport interchange station plus numerous university towns.

 

[Zoe]

There is actually an all stations Paignton to Exeter (except Dawlish Warren) service in the morning peak worked by an HST which then continues to London via Bristol. It may not be the best use of an HST but it does the job well when before everyone would have been packing onto a 150. There is a similar return working in the evening.

 

[rmt-driver]

Pacers from Carlisle - Middlesbrough. Or Hexham - Middlesbrough on a Newcastle matchday!

Pacers ANYWHERE on ANY day

 

[Zoe]

Pacers ANYWHERE on ANY day

Don't forget that if it hadn't been for the pacers some lines may have ended up with no stock.

 

[northwichcat]

There is actually an all stations Paignton to Exeter (except Dawlish Warren) service in the morning peak worked by an HST which then continues to London via Bristol. It may not be the best use of an HST but it does the job well when before everyone would have been packing onto a 150. There is a similar return working in the evening.

That sounds a bit like 156s on Buxton-Manchester. Everyone comments on 156s not being all-stops units but they're better suited to the Buxton line than 150s while 142s, 144s, 153s and 155s aren't cleared for that line.
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Don't forget that if it hadn't been for the pacers some lines may have ended up with no stock.

And those are mostly lines that Pacers aren't still used on!

 

[jaigee]

London Midland using 350/2's on long distance services.:cry:

 

[Zoe]

London Midland using 350/2's on long distance services.

These are more for local journeys though, you can change and use Virgin for longer journeys.

 

[sprinterguy]

170s to inverness? Gutless and crouded. A
use in future for 185s?

Replacing Scotrails' 170s with 185s wouldn't do anything to reduce any overcrowding though as they have similar capacities. That's not a fault of the trains themselves, and I prefer the seats on the 170s to those on 185s. Granted the 185s would have more grunt for getting over Drumochter and Slochd though.

Oh and as to voyagers, cut them up and bustitute us. Id rather go to brum on an opta solo or a dart than a 22x demu

I'd rather that didn't happen. I quite like being able to get to Newcastle from Birmingham in 3 hours on a direct train, and up to Manchester by train rather than on a darn bus as well, and I think that the majority of passengers feel the same way. It seems that quite a few are happy with the Voyagers because they're much more reliable than the trains they replaced, they've got better start to stop times between stations and they offer a predictable, standard level of service.

Although there are much better trains that could have been specified for the job in the first place and they have a lot of problems; with many people I know having commented on how crowded they often are and the smell from the toilets; so I'm not racing to the defence of Voyagers as a design here.
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These are more for local journeys though, you can change and use Virgin for longer journeys.

It's a shame though for those that can't afford to use Virgin all the time have to endure 3+2 commuter seating over journies that are also offered by Pendolinos just because they can't afford the more expensive ticket.

 

[thefab444]

And there's 508s sitting in storage that SWT could use instead of 158s. SWT's sister company EMT could make far better use of those 158s.

Not this again. :x Sorry, but myself and other objective users keep telling you exactly why 158s are used on the Lymington line and what you can do to allieviate the situation (buy us more 444s), yet you continue to bang on and on and on about how brilliant 508s would be on there.

I think we need a moratorium on this subject like the Norwich - Liverpool argument that kept coming up in practically every thread to do with 158s and 222s a while back. :roll:

 

[phil8715]

I once had a 142 from York to Accrington. Jeez I needed a drink after that journey back.

Other inappropiate stock, pendos period. Horrible uncomfortable, no leg room in the airline seats especially near the vestibule which has 4 extra seats with no window.