Most expensive bus journey in the UK?

[Be3G]

The shortest stop in London I've spotted is shoe lane to fetter lane (both on fleet street). £2.20 for 400 yards.

That's miiiles compared to the two Bancroft's School bus stops on the 397 – a mere 73 metres apart (56 as the crow flies)!

 

[radamfi]

Also, in comparison to the UK, London does get a huge subsidy. The rest of the UK doesn't but hey, depends where you wish to spend your money. The UK has decided it wants an NHS that is more comprehensive than many other countries.

Public health spending in the UK as a percentage of GDP is broadly in line with other industrialised countries.

The TfL bus fare revenue is something in the order of £1.5 billion with expenditure of something like £2 billion. LU more or less covers its operating expenditure of £2.5 billion. So public transport in London (except National Rail and trams) costs £4.5 billion with fare revenue of £4 billion. So the subsidy is about 12%.

According to this, admittedly dated, article hardly anywhere has a fare capture ratio of as high as 88%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Public health spending in the UK as a percentage of GDP is broadly in line with other industrialised countries.

QUOTE]

Sadly, our structural deficit is so pronounced (and is greater than every other industrialised country other than the US) that we have chosen to spend our money there (i.e. it is ringfenced) and cut in other areas.

For comparison, in 2011, the deficit was 8.3% of GDP vs. France (4.7%) or Netherlands (3.2%) or even Greece (6.5%). Fact is that we spend too much and we have decided to protect health, overseas development and (to an extent) education.

 

[quarella]

On buses (and trains) the one off trip is expensive. Season tickets, day tickets usually work out better value.

 

[South Westerly]

You don't need to renationalise. London buses and most buses in the Netherlands are privately owned.

Eventually, buses outside London will no longer be profitable so they will deregister their routes by choice, which has already happened in vast swathes of southern England.

Yet again, the supposedly high subsidy in London is quoted. It only seems high when compared to the virtually non-existent subsidy outside London. It is low compared to mass transit systems in the rest of the world.

You're missing the point. You can's sell someone a business, pocket the proceeds, then take the business away without compensating them. It's actually enshrined in the Human Rights Act.

In London the business of commercial operation was never privatised, only the contracted operation.

Your suggestion that all commercial bus operation is dying is patently untrue. The big groups make profits on their commercial operations. The reductions in service have generally been happening on publically funded services (tendered services)....ironic in the context of your argument for public control!

 

[6Gman]

A few years back, myself and my father paid £11.10 to go from The Eden Project to St Austell railway station; it's only about 4 miles as well!

I was rather shocked by the fare to Eden!

 

[deltic]

Hi,



Was my £3.20 subsidising the OAPs? ..

No - the concessionary fare system which is paid for my local government ensures a lot of bus services are maintained which would otherwise be withdrawn - around 40% of bus journeys in the UK are made by people on concessionary fares - if those journeys were not made a lot of bus services would disappear.

While as many have said single bus fares are often expensive the weekly or day rider tickets provided in many big cities seem remarkably cheap and good value to me - eg £13 for a weekly Manchester Stagecoach ticket

 

[radamfi]

You're missing the point. You can's sell someone a business, pocket the proceeds, then take the business away without compensating them. It's actually enshrined in the Human Rights Act.

In London the business of commercial operation was never privatised, only the contracted operation.

Your suggestion that all commercial bus operation is dying is patently untrue. The big groups make profits on their commercial operations. The reductions in service have generally been happening on publically funded services (tendered services)....ironic in the context of your argument for public control!

There's nothing stopping the government imposing regulation that makes commercial bus services unviable, but all the governments since 1986 have succumbed to lobbying from the big bus groups.

Commercial bus operation only exists because there is still a significant population who have no choice but to pay the silly fares currently charged. In vast areas of southern England, especially in Surrey, that captive market got smaller and smaller until the captive market was no longer big enough. Eventually the captive market in the rest of the country will similarly shrink.

I shouldn't really care. I'm alright. I'm not forced into paying dearly for commercial bus services. I have alternatives. I'll be emigrating to the Netherlands in due course where you can cycle anywhere for free and enjoy cheap, quality bus services. But I feel sorry for those who experience extreme hardship, for example unemployed people who have to pay £4 or more just to go to the job centre every two weeks to sign on.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There's nothing stopping the government imposing regulation that makes commercial bus services unviable, but all the governments since 1986 have succumbed to lobbying from the big bus groups.

Commercial bus operation only exists because there is still a significant population who have no choice but to pay the silly fares currently charged. In vast areas of southern England, especially in Surrey, that captive market got smaller and smaller until the captive market was no longer big enough. Eventually the captive market in the rest of the country will similarly shrink.

I shouldn't really care. I'm alright. I'm not forced into paying dearly for commercial bus services. I have alternatives. But I feel sorry for those who experience extreme hardship, for example unemployed people who have to pay £4 or more just to go to the job centre every two weeks to sign on.

I'm sorry. You just don't get it. At all.

South Westerly is correct. You cannot artificially tax a business out of viability in order to re-regulate or renationalise via the back door. What next? Perhaps whilst fixing postal charges, why not introduce a postal tax so that Royal Mail is forced into administration and we can renationalise that? Or passing legislation that taxes only the owners of former council houses so that they pay for new social housing? Same principle and same likelihood - none! How to wipe out business confidence! We sold the assets, spent the money. So yeah, there are a range of legal and commercial reasons why what you propose cannot happen.

 

[radamfi]

I'm sorry. You just don't get it. At all.

South Westerly is correct. You cannot artificially tax a business out of viability in order to re-regulate or renationalise via the back door. What next? Perhaps whilst fixing postal charges, why not introduce a postal tax so that Royal Mail is forced into administration and we can renationalise that? Or passing legislation that taxes only the owners of former council houses so that they pay for new social housing? Same principle and same likelihood - none! How to wipe out business confidence! We sold the assets, spent the money. So yeah, there are a range of legal and commercial reasons why what you propose cannot happen.

Fine. Let the bus industry outside London die a natural death.

 

[tbtc]

There's nothing stopping the government imposing regulation that makes commercial bus services unviable

Any chance that we could have a discussion about buses without it turning into this "the Government should simply steal all the private assets and not compensate the businesses that currently own them" schtick?

Yes, I get it, some bits of Europe have much better buses (certainly not all of Europe - "Europe" in these kind of arguments tends to be a "Greater Netherlands" via of the continent), just like some bits of the UK have better buses/ trains than some bits of "Europe". But what you are proposing yet again has no relevance to this (nor to the subject of this thread), sorry.

 

[radamfi]

Any chance that we could have a discussion about buses without it turning into this "the Government should simply steal all the private assets and not compensate the businesses that currently own them" schtick?

Yes, I get it, some bits of Europe have much better buses (certainly not all of Europe - "Europe" in these kind of arguments tends to be a "Greater Netherlands" via of the continent), just like some bits of the UK have better buses/ trains than some bits of "Europe". But what you are proposing yet again has no relevance to this (nor to the subject of this thread), sorry.

There's no reason to even mention the parts of Europe where buses aren't as good as in, say, the Netherlands or Switzerland. Why talk about second best when you can talk about the best?

Certainly when it comes to fares, which is what we are talking about on this thread, that is one thing that is particularly poor compared to most of Europe. I suppose you could argue that Switzerland is quite expensive unless you have a GA (unlimited nationwide travel ticket which a remarkable portion of the population have), but you do get the best service in the world and of course the cost of living is very high there, as are wages.

Cheap fares are almost impossible in the UK because high fares are required to keep deregulation viable. Even London isn't that cheap unless you only use one or two buses a day.

 

[DelayRepay]

Even London isn't that cheap unless you only use one or two buses a day.

What's the Oyster bus cap these days? It was about £4 last time I used enough buses to qualify - which I don't think is bad for a day's travel (compared to the £3.20 fare which prompted me to start this thread).

 

[Rapidash]

Stagecoach use the 12 as a money making machine during the summer months in Torbay, to the point where its now cheaper to get a Dayrider at £4.90 than a return to Torquay from Brixham which is about £5.60 now, IIRC? Admittedly I now use a Megarider Gold Smartcard for £93 p/m as my job carries me all over the south west, and its handy to be able to use all the SC and some indie buses with it.

Still annoys me no end that some....older people with concessionary bus passes turn up at 9 in the morning, pay a few quid to get to Paignton, to then come down the stairs and then use their passes! Takes the piddle, I reckon!

 

[radamfi]

What's the Oyster bus cap these days? It was about £4 last time I used enough buses to qualify - which I don't think is bad for a day's travel (compared to the £3.20 fare which prompted me to start this thread).

It is £4.40. But of course you can only use buses and trams only. In a big city, you should really include all modes as it generally too slow to get about by bus alone, unless you are desperate to save money or only travelling where there is no rail.

It is, of course, quite normal outside the UK for all local public transport to be charged at the same rate regardless of whether it is a bus, tram or metro. The UK is crazy in having independent fare structures for the different modes.

What is really extortionate in the UK is if you are doing a one-way trip that happens to involve a change of buses. In many places, you would be getting a £4+ day ticket just to go one-way! Outside the UK and Ireland, a trip usually costs the same whether you change buses or not. Arguably you should be paying *less* to change, as it is less convenient!

 

[90019]

Any chance that we could have a discussion about buses without it turning into this "the Government should simply steal all the private assets and not compensate the businesses that currently own them" schtick?

I think radamfi may be Zoe Mk2.

 

[DelayRepay]

It is £4.40. But of course you can only use buses and trams only. In a big city, you should really include all modes as it generally too slow to get about by bus alone, unless you are desperate to save money or only travelling where there is no rail.

I don't agree with this - there's a higher cap for people using tube and rail which I think reflects that those services are generally quicker and used to travel longer distances.

When I lived in South London I wasn't near the tube, quite often I'd use the bus to make several journeys in one day e.g. return trip to the shops in the day, return trip into the local town centre in the evening. I never felt I was being ripped off.

 

[Qwerty133]

£2.70 for about 8 miles? here, 15p cheaper than the train for a return journey, as return tickets are not sold. Totally overpriced for a worn out S/T reg alx400, that is incapable of sticking to time, and has highly inappropriate bench seats.
However based on today's journey that'd be less than 5p per minute if including the wait at the bus stop after scheduled departure time, taking over an hour.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

£2.70 for about 8 miles? here, 15p cheaper than the train for a return journey, as return tickets are not sold. Totally overpriced for a worn out S/T reg alx400, that is incapable of sticking to time, and has highly inappropriate bench seats.
However based on today's journey that'd be less than 5p per minute if including the wait at the bus stop after scheduled departure time, taking over an hour.

Highly inappropriate bench seats.....?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is, of course, quite normal outside the UK for all local public transport to be charged at the same rate regardless of whether it is a bus, tram or metro. The UK is crazy in having independent fare structures for the different modes.

What is really extortionate in the UK is if you are doing a one-way trip that happens to involve a change of buses. In many places, you would be getting a £4+ day ticket just to go one-way! Outside the UK and Ireland, a trip usually costs the same whether you change buses or not. Arguably you should be paying *less* to change, as it is less convenient!

..... apart from Portugal or Ireland to name but two

 

[chris89]

Looking at some of the prices's it makes my bus not look that bad.

Highley - Bridgnorth

£2.95 Single
£4.50 Return

Highley - Kidderminster

£3.75 Single
£6.50 ish for a Return.

Although limited for the times and ends earlier then some other services do.

Arriva 890 (Also most others)

Bridgnorth - Wolves

£3.20 Single
£6.20 Day Saver that allows travel throughout Shropshire/ West Midlands on Arriva Buses.

 

[Qwerty133]

Highly inappropriate bench seats.....?

We're in 2014 not 1994, bench seats should now be left to school contracts and pensioners buses, and not like on these ALX400s where it's individual seating for the buspass holders downstairs, but for paying customers who go upstairs get the inferior bench seats, that haven't been spaced properly which should have been left in the 90s.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

We're in 2014 not 1994, bench seats should now be left to school contracts and pensioners buses, and not like on these ALX400s where it's individual seating for the buspass holders downstairs, but for paying customers who go upstairs get the inferior bench seats, that haven't been spaced properly which should have been left in the 90s.

If that's the biggest issue with bus services in the UK, I think we can relax "Highly inappropriate" seems a little strong. I have more of an issue with Urban 90/continental citybus style seating which may be individual but is also bereft of padding

 

[Abpj17]

Radamfi - you're still missing the point. The UK has had a series of governments that largely believe competition and the free market is good. Various mainland EU countries tend towards more socialist policies.

London justifies the different prices because of how strained the entire network is. Pricing is used to reflect the costs and benefits of each different mode. The river bus is super in certain cases but it would never be viable at the same rate as a bus.

The pricing across all modes only truly applies to a relatively small number of cities with integrated networks. It doesn't commonly apply outside metropolitan areas.

I do, however, agree that multiple parts of the same journey should come under a single fare. E.g. your ticket is valid for an hour on bus/tube. The may be feasible now buses are cashless and as oyster develops. But, TfL deal with this through price-capping instead.

 

[yorksrob]

Radamfi - you're still missing the point. The UK has had a series of governments that largely believe competition and the free market is good. Various mainland EU countries tend towards more socialist policies.

Political fashions change.

The London system for running and pricing buses is justified because it works.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Political fashions change.

Administrations of Labour, Conservative and Coalition have not looked at re-regulation (apart from politicking by the outgoing Labour government). Also, we are continuing to see a move from direct ownership and control (Royal Mail privatisation, East Coast return to 3rd party operation)

 

[radamfi]

Radamfi - you're still missing the point. The UK has had a series of governments that largely believe competition and the free market is good. Various mainland EU countries tend towards more socialist policies.

London justifies the different prices because of how strained the entire network is. Pricing is used to reflect the costs and benefits of each different mode. The river bus is super in certain cases but it would never be viable at the same rate as a bus.

The pricing across all modes only truly applies to a relatively small number of cities with integrated networks. It doesn't commonly apply outside metropolitan areas.

I do, however, agree that multiple parts of the same journey should come under a single fare. E.g. your ticket is valid for an hour on bus/tube. The may be feasible now buses are cashless and as oyster develops. But, TfL deal with this through price-capping instead.

Just because somewhere is not socialist does not mean you have to have poor public transport or expensive fares.

Switzerland is the most conservative country in Europe. It has avoided EU membership. It has the most American style healthcare system in Europe. It has high gun ownership. It has a relatively limited benefits system. It has low taxation. Yet it has the best public transport in the world and the service is highly regulated, despite having some private railways.

Obviously the US is clearly not socialist, but bus fares in America are typically cheap. Typically in the order of $2 flat fare. And they usually offer transfers.

The fare differential between bus and Tube leads to anomalies in service provision. The 25 follows the Central Line and railway for almost its entire route, yet it is the busiest route in Britain. If there was integrated bus/Tube fares, then people would mostly change onto the train/Tube at the earliest opportunity rather than sit on a slow bus for up to an extra hour. In this particular case, a reasonable justification is that the bus relieves congestion off the trains, but you probably won't be able to argue that when Crossrail opens.

 

[Robertj21a]

We're in 2014 not 1994, bench seats should now be left to school contracts and pensioners buses, and not like on these ALX400s where it's individual seating for the buspass holders downstairs, but for paying customers who go upstairs get the inferior bench seats, that haven't been spaced properly which should have been left in the 90s.

Well I can't understand this at all. You are, presumably, talking about Arriva's ex-London DLAs. These have 'traditional' seats upstairs (two people on one seat cushion) rather than the more modern individual seats. Needless to say these older style cushions are far more comfortable than the modern plastic seats so I don't understand your moan. There's nothing wrong with the spacing, many more modern buses are far worse.

 

[Qwerty133]

Well I can't understand this at all. You are, presumably, talking about Arriva's ex-London DLAs. These have 'traditional' seats upstairs (two people on one seat cushion) rather than the more modern individual seats. Needless to say these older style cushions are far more comfortable than the modern plastic seats so I don't understand your moan. There's nothing wrong with the spacing, many more modern buses are far worse.

Probably best to leave comfort out as its subjective however I do not wish to spend 45 mins on the same seat as a stranger. As for the spacing there's over a metre between the last floor mounted seats and the back, clearly done to save money as the runners on the floor don't extend any further.

 

[Carlisle]

I do not wish to spend 45 mins on the same seat as a stranger.

Speaks the ghost of Howard Hughes

 

[radamfi]

The pricing across all modes only truly applies to a relatively small number of cities with integrated networks. It doesn't commonly apply outside metropolitan areas.

Out of interest, what size of city/metropolitan area should have integrated fares? I'm trying to think of a smallish city with at least one tram line that doesn't have integrated fares between bus and tram. Such smallish cities in our vicinity (except UK and Ireland) include Gent, Antwerp, Utrecht, Mulhouse and they don't have differential bus/tram pricing.

Greater Manchester and the West Midlands are way bigger than those places above.

Actually, Paris is an anomaly and Ile de France is the largest urban area in the EU:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_urban_areas_of_the_European_Union

In Paris, you have bus/tram integrated fares, but not between bus/tram and metro/rail. Although the same t+ ticket is valid on both.