Most expensive bus journey in the UK?

[Springs Branch]

One thing that annoys me about paying for a one-off, single bus journey in an unfamiliar area (apart from the high cost) is that before you board the bus, you'll often have no idea what the fare is going to be.

Apart from some big metropolitan operations like London, First Glasgow or Lothian which have simple flat-fare schemes, does anyone know of any UK bus companies who publish old-school Fare Tables on their websites alongside their timetables, Daily/Weekly tickets and general guff about how they're revolutionising transport for their customers?

How would you know if the driver is charging the correct fare, or just making it up? Presumably you could phone a depot beforehand and hope the guy who answers can tell you, but why is it so hard for fares to be clearly shown on websites in the 21st Century?

 

[radamfi]

Apart from some big metropolitan operations like London, First Glasgow or Lothian which have simple flat-fare schemes, does anyone know of any UK bus companies who publish old-school Fare Tables

I agree the lack of publicity for single fares is yet another major shortcoming. There are a few companies that publish fare tables online, including Metrobus, Southdown PSV and Oxford Bus Company.

 

[GodAtum]

I find the lack of published fares distubing.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

One thing that annoys me about paying for a one-off, single bus journey in an unfamiliar area (apart from the high cost) is that before you board the bus, you'll often have no idea what the fare is going to be.

How would you know if the driver is charging the correct fare, or just making it up? Presumably you could phone a depot beforehand and hope the guy who answers can tell you, but why is it so hard for fares to be clearly shown on websites in the 21st Century?

Check your ticket - that often provides the detail as to the fare.

The lack of fare information is a sticking point and isn't beyond the realms of possibility in providing it. An operator may not wish to publish a full faretable, for commercial reasons, but a simple fare finder (in a similar manner to a journey planner) should be eminently doable. In my experience, I don't recall drivers "making it up" and those that would do generally don't issue a ticket.......!

 

[radamfi]

I can understand why operators don't publish single fares as they are so embarrassingly expensive. However I would suggest that publishing fares should be made mandatory. Given that many companies have been around for decades, some with ancestry going back 100+ years, they've had plenty of time to do it.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Just because somewhere is not socialist does not mean you have to have poor public transport or expensive fares.

Switzerland is the most conservative country in Europe. It has avoided EU membership. It has the most American style healthcare system in Europe. It has high gun ownership. It has a relatively limited benefits system. It has low taxation. Yet it has the best public transport in the world and the service is highly regulated, despite having some private railways.

Obviously the US is clearly not socialist, but bus fares in America are typically cheap. Typically in the order of $2 flat fare. And they usually offer transfers.

The fare differential between bus and Tube leads to anomalies in service provision. The 25 follows the Central Line and railway for almost its entire route, yet it is the busiest route in Britain. If there was integrated bus/Tube fares, then people would mostly change onto the train/Tube at the earliest opportunity rather than sit on a slow bus for up to an extra hour. In this particular case, a reasonable justification is that the bus relieves congestion off the trains, but you probably won't be able to argue that when Crossrail opens.

I think the poster was talking about a socialist approach to public transport, and not on a macro-economic level. I might add that we are in the UK, and that you can focus on one minimal aspect of the economic and social fabric of another country (transport) but that ignores all of the downsides that accompany it. The US has flat fares and transfers but what about publically funded healthcare and welfare>

The 25 may well follow the Central line but what is the average journey duration for passengers. I think you'll find that it's a complex mix of shorter journeys rather than end to end.

The T&W Metro (of the 1980s) was often held up as a shining example of integration, and that it was deregulation and the introduction of price penalties that adversely affected. There is a kernel of truth in that but more accurate is that there were several examples of passengers being forced to change mode, most apparently in southern/western Gateshead. Several services were truncated at Gateshead so passengers had to change onto the Metro. At dereg, Go Ahead Northern extended those services back to Newcastle. Some will point to the price penalty for changing when the reality was that it was a convenience/time factor that was the main issue.
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I can understand why operators don't publish single fares as they are so embarrassingly expensive. However I would suggest that publishing fares should be made mandatory. Given that many companies have been around for decades, some with ancestry going back 100+ years, they've had plenty of time to do it.

We all know why single bus fares are so expensive.... to play the system on ENCTS that has been so badly imposed and funded, as well as to promote pre-paid travel tickets that improve cashflow and improve customer loyalty by locking them in for longer.

 

[neilmc]

I don't know whether this is country-wide, but all Stagecoach Manchester single fares can be looked up in online fare tables.

 

[radamfi]

The 25 may well follow the Central line but what is the average journey duration for passengers. I think you'll find that it's a complex mix of shorter journeys rather than end to end.

Obviously a lot of people will be using the 25 for short journeys as well, but undoubtedly a lot will surely be tempted to use it for a long journey from east London into central London, given that you could potentially get by with daily travel costs of £2.90. The route passes through main employment areas in the City and West End. The 25 is probably an acute example of the problem as it passes through relatively deprived areas. The same problem would apply to an extent on other corridors into central London, but not probably so much from more wealthy suburbs who are more likely to be prepared to pay extra for the speed of the Tube.
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We all know why single bus fares are so expensive.... to play the system on ENCTS that has been so badly imposed and funded, as well as to promote pre-paid travel tickets that improve cashflow and improve customer loyalty by locking them in for longer.

What about before deregulation? Fare tables were not even widespread then, at least not in Greater Manchester where I was brought up.

Obviously pre-paid tickets exist in the rest of Europe, yet they also have much more reasonably priced singles as well.

 

[Chapeltom]

High Peak Buses allow you to look up fares on all their routes, which I think is a step in the right direction. I'd rather know that if I have to make a bus journey how much I'm going to be charged before hand rather than being put off by the fact fares aren't public or annoyed when I get a surprise when I board.

 

[radamfi]

a step in the right direction.

We shouldn't just put up with 'a step'. They should be forced into publishing proper fare tables by law. The operators have shown that they can't be trusted to do it without compulsion.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Obviously a lot of people will be using the 25 for short journeys as well, but undoubtedly a lot will surely be tempted to use it for a long journey from east London into central London, given that you could potentially get by with daily travel costs of £2.90. The route passes through main employment areas in the City and West End. The 25 is probably an acute example of the problem as it passes through relatively deprived areas. The same problem would apply to an extent on other corridors into central London, but not probably so much from more wealthy suburbs who are more likely to be prepared to pay extra for the speed of the Tube.
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What about before deregulation? Fare tables were not even widespread then, at least not in Greater Manchester where I was brought up.

Obviously pre-paid tickets exist in the rest of Europe, yet they also have much more reasonably priced singles as well.

Yes, but they don't have ENCTS (which is a major factor), don't have a competitive environment, aren't underpinned by local or central government (to manage cashflow) and nor pour a boat load of cash in terms of subsidy.

It's a completely different approach so you can't compare apples with artichokes.

I agree that there should be no reason why fares cannot be easily looked up by potential passengers.

 

[ECML180]

We shouldn't just put up with 'a step'. They should be forced into publishing proper fare tables by law. The operators have shown that they can't be trusted to do it without compulsion.

Why are you so keen to punish operators?

It's becoming more common to publish fare information, but fare tables really aren't necesary are they? Generally they add to confusion when all a passenger needs to know is their fare from the stop. Take, for example, Kinchbus, in the Wellglade Group. They design their own flags for bus stops as well as maintaining the information displays at the stops. This, generally, includes a timetable, route map and information on KinchKard (smart tickets) as well as listing fares to key stops. In addition, they have a full fare finder on their website which lists single fares, as well as returns (where applicable) and money saving options.

Go to the other end of the spectrum and you will find a lot of small independent operators who work on a more 'low cost' basis. They already have to face DDA Guidelines which mean fleet investment and have/will shed some routes off the back of it. Demanding they make websites, publish fare tables etc will either lead to incomplete bodge jobs that are of no use or they will have to get someone else to do it properly, adding to cost and so probably raising fares.

Whilst I agree more information is better, and the Kinchbus system is what I would hope for many operators to adopt, I challenge you to find a situation where a mandatory published fare table would benefit a notable amount of (potential?) passengers.

 

[radamfi]

Why are you so keen to punish operators

It is hardly a punishment to get them to tell us information what they already know! How hard can it be to print the fare table on a timetable leaflet?

Go to the other end of the spectrum and you will find a lot of small independent operators who work on a more 'low cost' basis. They already have to face DDA Guidelines which mean fleet investment and have/will shed some routes off the back of it. Demanding they make websites, publish fare tables etc will either lead to incomplete bodge jobs that are of no use or they will have to get someone else to do it properly, adding to cost and so probably raising fares.

If they are that incompetent that they can't even provide a simple timetable leaflet that also shows the fares, why are we even allowing them to operate buses? The fact that we are even talking about such cowboys shows how low quality we have allowed bus operation to be.

I guess we both know what each of us would say. You obviously would say that higher quality means higher fares and fewer services. I would say that we need a decent minimum standard of service, which requires more public funding to pay for it.

I think it is no accident that companies who have a flat fare system are often better rated than the rest, even if that flat fare is quite high. They may simply be lucky that Nottingham, Brighton, Edinburgh etc. is 'good bus territory' but I wouldn't be surprised if the flat fare helps, as people know what the fare is before they get on.

In areas that are too big for flat fare, a zonal fare system could be used. So all a company would need to do is have one map of zones, showing the fares between the zones and they would only need to do this once for their whole network.

 

[ECML180]

If they are that incompetent that they can't even provide a simple timetable leaflet that also shows the fares, why are we even allowing them to operate buses? The fact that we are even talking about such cowboys shows how low quality we have allowed bus operation to be.

I think it's very unfair to class these broadly decent companies as incompetent cowboys. If the PTE/council in their area provides timetable information why should they do too?

I guess we both know what each of us would say. You obviously would say that higher quality means higher fares and fewer services. I would say that we need a decent minimum standard of service, which requires more public funding to pay for it.

I would say that if the authorities wish to increase the standard of service they should pay for it, not force it upon all operators and services. For example, there is a route local to me that is run with old (and tired) Solos on a fairly limited timetable and no financial support, yet it goes through estates and provides the elderly and those with limited mobility a vital lifeline. The only reason it runs is because the buses are now effectively 'free' having been paid for through previous contracts and it provides something for a driver to do between school runs, income is minimal and so any more regulation without financial support would lead to this being withdrawn. Who benefits from that?

 

[radamfi]

I think it's very unfair to class these broadly decent companies as incompetent cowboys. If the PTE/council in their area provides timetable information why should they do too?

Whoever provides the timetable information should provide the fare information as well. As far I was aware, even if the local authority provides the information, the bus company still pays them to do it. That is why some operators decide to do their own publicity. Obviously if we are talking about a tendered service, then the council would specify the fares anyway, so they have no excuse if they are also producing the publicity.

But you did describe the companies as 'low cost' and their fleets needing investment etc. That doesn't sound great to me.

I would say that if the authorities wish to increase the standard of service they should pay for it, not force it upon all operators and services.

But if you increase funding, then the council can demand decent quality services. Like with many things, you get what you pay for.

 

[ECML180]

But you did describe the companies as 'low cost' and their fleets needing investment etc. That doesn't sound great to me.

Doesn't sound like it would make a great journey to me either, but if they can turn up on time and rarely miss a journey I think they must be a pretty reliable operator, miles from a cowboy.

But if you increase funding, then the council can demand decent quality services. Like with many things, you get what you pay for.

Great! Problem solved as far as I'm concerned, operators are helped to improve rather than forced...but then you open up the problem of either increasing borrowing or cutting some other service. But IMO it's still better than squeezing the passengers or operators.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's frustrating that many of the PTEs have become 'Integrated Transport Authorities' but as deregulation is still in full swing, they have little or no Authority to ensure that Transport is Integrated! :roll:

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It's frustrating that many of the PTEs have become 'Integrated Transport Authorities' but as deregulation is still in full swing, they have little or no Authority to ensure that Transport is Integrated! :roll:

Integration is not a magic bullet; successful public transport needs investment. As Radamfi stated, you get what you pay for. I see no evidence that the situation is likely to change (see David Cameron's speech this very afternoon)! We don't invest in public transport, there are swingeing cuts in public expenditure, and the electorate aren't that bothered (in comparison to a lot of other issues).

By virtue of being on this board, we are unashamedly pro public transport, and nothing would please me more than seeing more investment. Sadly, we are atypical. Whilst governments are happy to spend money on flagship projects, consistent investment in supporting public transport generally is lacking. Hence we can have Crossrail or HS2, but the rail passenger is increasingly having to fund via the farebox

 

[Hyphen]

Apart from some big metropolitan operations like London, First Glasgow or Lothian which have simple flat-fare schemes, does anyone know of any UK bus companies who publish old-school Fare Tables on their websites alongside their timetables, Daily/Weekly tickets and general guff about how they're revolutionising transport for their customers?

Not a fare table per se, but TrentBarton publish fares information for all their routes. Select route, then start and end fare stages, and it'll give you the fares - broken down by single/return/MANGO (including discounted versions) and compare that against the zigzag (all day).

In addition, Traveline Cymru has undertaken quite a gargantuan task in recent months where they've worked with individual operators across Wales to gather and publicise fares for individual journeys. Annoyingly though, it's only got single fares, and it's seemingly incapable of working out the best ticket for an overall journey (such as an all-day or local authority supported ticket). Moreover, it seems First Cymru in my local area has withdrawn from this scheme since I last looked. More: http://www.traveline-cymru.info/fares/

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Strathclyde Partnership for Transport always publish fare tables for their tendered services. They can all be found on their website in the timetables section...

 

[Busaholic]

At one time bus fares outside London had to be agreed by the Traffic Commissioners and this was by no means a rubber stamp exercise. Meetings would be face-to-face and, in the case of municipal operators which numbered around 100 before the cull started in the late 1960s, the General Manager would probably have to attend and be fully au fait with the figures proposed. Every fare agreed was public property, regardless of operator, and was not supposed to give one operator a commercial advantage over another. Fare tables had to be available for inspection by members of the public.

 

[Abpj17]

Obviously a lot of people will be using the 25 for short journeys as well, but undoubtedly a lot will surely be tempted to use it for a long journey from east London into central London, given that you could potentially get by with daily travel costs of £2.90. The route passes through main employment areas in the City and West End. The 25 is probably an acute example of the problem as it passes through relatively deprived areas. The same problem would apply to an extent on other corridors into central London, but not probably so much from more wealthy suburbs who are more likely to be prepared to pay extra for the speed of the Tube.

I've used it regularly; you're right that - particularly to the East - it passes through deprived areas and a significant number are taking long journeys on it. I've often observed cleaners etc. on it as well as suited and booted types.

(The other difference may be - unlike most central tube stations - you can avoid having a ticket without too much trouble).

And benelux countries have super public transport as a rule, we obviously don't