Most chaotic small station?

[Waddon]

I spent about an hour at Redhill today, a regular stop over for me. Only has three platforms, two of which are quite narrow, and two through lines, but there were trains splitting and joining, reversing, sharing platforms...

the public information displays were always updating, or wrong, (in fact the commonest sound on the platform was that voice saying 'attention please. This is a platform alteration'...) and trains seemed to either stop as far away from the stairs as possible, causing mass passenger runs from one end to the other, or even occasionally making odd train movements, where a train would move from one end of the platform to the other, for no apparent reason.

Staff seemed to be doing their best under trying circumstances, but the expressions on their faces suggest that it's far from the most relaxed station on the network...

Is there any other small-ish stations that have as much going on as this one ?

 

[Minstral25]

Redhill isn't really a small station - in terms of passenger numbers it is the 74th biggest station on Network Rail out of 2,500 stations in 2009/10. It is very busy and does not have the facilities or platform faces to deal with the volume. Wait to the 12 car Thameslink trains are added to the mix in a few years.

The northbound trains going to the far end of Platforms 1 instead of near the exit is because the FGW trains use the near end to reverse for Gatwick and Network Rail won't allow the turn back area to be used by Northbound trains.

 

[starlightEXPRESS]

Redhill isn't really a small station - in terms of passenger numbers it is the 74th biggest station on Network Rail out of 2,500 stations in 2009/10.

Yes, in fact it's the fourth most-used station in Surrey (after Guildford, Woking and Epsom). There are outline plans to remodel the whole station area at Redhill, which would include a new platform on the west side of the station for terminating North Downs Line services from Reading. (Currently priced at £25M with no funding source identified http://www.reigate-banstead.gov.uk/Images/Community Infrastructure Project Plan_tcm9-32914.pdf .)

 

[The Barlow Boy]

£25,000,000 to build a new platform and install associated signing, track and signalling?
Does someone get paid to make these figures up?
£2,500 would be nice to get some heating into the fridge that's the upside waiting room.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Redhill isn't really a small station - in terms of passenger numbers it is the 74th biggest station on Network Rail out of 2,500 stations in 2009/10. It is very busy and does not have the facilities or platform faces to deal with the volume. Wait to the 12 car Thameslink trains are added to the mix in a few years.

The northbound trains going to the far end of Platforms 1 instead of near the exit is because the FGW trains use the near end to reverse for Gatwick and Network Rail won't allow the turn back area to be used by Northbound trains.

So they'd rather see the passengers on an up four car set from platform one get soaking wet in their walk to the far end. The FGW terminators also go right to the far end again guaranteeing an uncomfortable walk for the pasengers in inclement weather. It is seemingly too difficult merely to stop under the canopy, let the punters out then proceed to the far end.

 

[Chapeltom]

Salford Crescent - literally a very tiny station. Tiny island platform with as much use as a chocolate fireguard when it comes to coping at peak hours, just down to size.

Many passengers and many trains, I'd say 8 go through an hour in each direction, stopping and not stopping

 

[Bald Rick]

£25,000,000 to build a new platform and install associated signing, track and signalling?
Does someone get paid to make these figures up?

Slightly OT, but yes someone does get paid to make the figures up, but someone also does have a good hard think about it first as if they don't then they stop getting paid and have to go to the job centre.

And while it was £25m on the back of an envelope (literally, I still have the envelope) it was £40m after some proper feasbility work had been done.

So, the cunning plan (4 years ago) was to completely remodel the station. This included...

a) building the down platform (3) out to the down through line, with a new 4-car bay platform inset at the country end
b) completely demolishing the up side island platform (1/2) and constructing a new platform island with one platform face alongside the existing up through line, the other platform face roughly along the centre line of the existing island, with the platform track running roughly where platform 1 itself is today
c) constructing a new platform and track to the west of the island, with the track being where the platform 1 track is today, the platform itself being on the adjacent siding
d) new pedestrian access to the new platforms including lifts and presumably canopies or heated waiting rooms
e) remove 34 sets of points, and replace with 26 new sets (at half a million each)
e) resignal the lot (about £10-£12m)
f) pay Southern, FCC and FGW for not running train services for about a month while this lot was done in one go.

Main benefit was that every stopping train to/from London or Gatwick directions would save approx 1 minute, which doubled to 2 min for a train going London - Gatwick or vv. Subsidary benefits were an increase in platform capacity and reduced track maintenance costs as the layout was much more simple.

Almost all the track was due renewal 2010-2013, and the signalling by 2018. Effectively this was about getting a much improved station with more capacity and reduced journey times for a relatively small incremental cost compared to like for like renewal.

However it hasn't happened, at least not yet. Maybe in the next control period.

 

[starlightEXPRESS]

Thanks Bald Rick for a very interesting and informative post. It's good to be able to get an insight into how infrastructure/resignalling projects are developed and costed.

Returning to the OP's question, Redhill does bear some similarities to Oxford. Both have three platforms (although in Oxford's case one of these is a bay at the country end of the station) and two through (non-platform) lines. Oxford also has plenty of conflicting moves across flat junctions at the country end of the station, although these are ECS moves to the carriage sidings (I'm deliberately ignoring Wolvercote Jnc for the Cotswold line, which is 2 miles north of the station). It's probably stretching things to say that Oxford is a 'small' station, but it can certainly be 'chaotic' during the peaks and at lunchtimes at weekends. There can't be many stations with an annual passenger count the size of Oxford with only three platforms. (I'm ignoring the two new platforms that Chiltern will build under Evergreen 3, which will be entirely separate from the current station trackwork and inaccessible to FGW services.)

There was a plan to build a new south facing bay platform at Oxford for terminating stopping services from Paddington. (This would have eliminated some of the ECS crossing moves into the Turbo sidings on the north side of the station.) The new platform has recently been dropped due to the current spending cuts, but Oxford does urgently need more capacity as it is developing into a serious bottleneck for through trains.

The Greater Western RUS proposed a complete redevelopment of the platform layout, introducing a new island platform, to give four through platform faces in total. (Curiously the same plans completely omitted the new Chiltern platforms and it's not clear to me whether Chiltern will leave enough space for an extra island.)

 

[The Planner]

The back of a fag packet ideas I've seen for Oxford involved bringing a new line on the other side of platform 2 and extending platform 3/new Chiltern bay through to the other side. More or less smashing it all down and starting again !

 

[Minstral25]

Bald rick a cunning plan indeed. Very interesting to see how the costs stack up. Even more interesting is how would Southern get all it's commuters to London each morning in the months shutdown. FGW is easy because you terminate everything at Reigate and then 2 coaches one to Gatwick and one to Redhill? But Southern?

Having spent many an hour standing waiting for trains at Redhill, I always thought the way forward would be to remove platform 3 completely and build a new island platform out to the position of the Up main through road which would then become the down main and create another down platform 4. Then Platform 1/2 could remain untouched other than a slight extension to make them both capable of holding 12 coach trains - platform 1 cannot properly currently.

Trouble is in reality they will take the cheap option - which is to build a new short platform 0 over the sidings to the west of platform 1 for FGW trains to turn round. Expect this in about 2019....

 

[Twoonthebuzzer]

Not really a small station in terms of passenger numbers, but with only 2 platforms, neither bi, Cheltenham is always chaotic and really needs another platform, if only a bay platform for terminators!

With 3 ToC's providing regular services there, regular terminators crossing over into Alstone Sidings and regular freight, only a minor delay/disturbance will cause tailbacks!!

 

[brillopad]

St Ives branch - single line - one platform and 2 x 150 disgorging hundreds of holidaymakers every half an hour - to be extended with a 153.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

I've always thought the best thing to do at Redhill was to extend the old up postal bay right the way through to the other end to provide a "Tonbridge platform". This would allow trains from Tonbridge to arrive and reverse out to Gatwick without interrupting the up main. With a bit of groundwork on the upside it should be possible to get a new platform in where the present sidings are that are adjacent to platform 1 to give an exclusive Gatwick/Reading platform. With 5 reversible platforms the working should be a lot easier than they are now.

 

[prod_pep]

I'll nominate Salford Crescent also. Certainly the most chaotic I've seen.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Slightly OT, but yes someone does get paid to make the figures up, but someone also does have a good hard think about it first as if they don't then they stop getting paid and have to go to the job centre.

And while it was £25m on the back of an envelope (literally, I still have the envelope) it was £40m after some proper feasbility work had been done.

So, the cunning plan (4 years ago) was to completely remodel the station. This included...

a) building the down platform (3) out to the down through line, with a new 4-car bay platform inset at the country end
b) completely demolishing the up side island platform (1/2) and constructing a new platform island with one platform face alongside the existing up through line, the other platform face roughly along the centre line of the existing island, with the platform track running roughly where platform 1 itself is today
c) constructing a new platform and track to the west of the island, with the track being where the platform 1 track is today, the platform itself being on the adjacent siding
d) new pedestrian access to the new platforms including lifts and presumably canopies or heated waiting rooms
e) remove 34 sets of points, and replace with 26 new sets (at half a million each)
e) resignal the lot (about £10-£12m)
f) pay Southern, FCC and FGW for not running train services for about a month while this lot was done in one go.

Main benefit was that every stopping train to/from London or Gatwick directions would save approx 1 minute, which doubled to 2 min for a train going London - Gatwick or vv. Subsidary benefits were an increase in platform capacity and reduced track maintenance costs as the layout was much more simple.

Almost all the track was due renewal 2010-2013, and the signalling by 2018. Effectively this was about getting a much improved station with more capacity and reduced journey times for a relatively small incremental cost compared to like for like renewal.

However it hasn't happened, at least not yet. Maybe in the next control period.

There's a funny thing! I've just read the local rag which brings up on the headline leader plans by Southern/NetwokRail to construct a new platform on the eastern ie platform 1 side of the station. There's other stuff too. I wonder if we're going to get some heating/ventilation in the glass box waiting room on the upside?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Slightly OT, but yes someone does get paid to make the figures up, but someone also does have a good hard think about it first as if they don't then they stop getting paid and have to go to the job centre.

And while it was £25m on the back of an envelope (literally, I still have the envelope) it was £40m after some proper feasbility work had been done.

So, the cunning plan (4 years ago) was to completely remodel the station. This included...

a) building the down platform (3) out to the down through line, with a new 4-car bay platform inset at the country end
b) completely demolishing the up side island platform (1/2) and constructing a new platform island with one platform face alongside the existing up through line, the other platform face roughly along the centre line of the existing island, with the platform track running roughly where platform 1 itself is today
c) constructing a new platform and track to the west of the island, with the track being where the platform 1 track is today, the platform itself being on the adjacent siding
d) new pedestrian access to the new platforms including lifts and presumably canopies or heated waiting rooms
e) remove 34 sets of points, and replace with 26 new sets (at half a million each)e) resignal the lot (about £10-£12m)
f) pay Southern, FCC and FGW for not running train services for about a month while this lot was done in one go.

Main benefit was that every stopping train to/from London or Gatwick directions would save approx 1 minute, which doubled to 2 min for a train going London - Gatwick or vv. Subsidary benefits were an increase in platform capacity and reduced track maintenance costs as the layout was much more simple.

Almost all the track was due renewal 2010-2013, and the signalling by 2018. Effectively this was about getting a much improved station with more capacity and reduced journey times for a relatively small incremental cost compared to like for like renewal.

However it hasn't happened, at least not yet. Maybe in the next control period.

See, this is what I mean. How can a point motor cost half a million quid?

 

[WestCoast]

I'll nominate Salford Crescent also. Certainly the most chaotic I've seen.

Another vote for Salford Crescent - peak times can be so unbelievably crowded on such a small platform - there's nowhere to go!

 

[55003]

Why do the southern services to and from Tonbridge always have to go to the very far end of platform 1a at Redhill even when it is quiet?A footbridge from the London end to platform 3 would be very useful.The information displays seem to be controlled by the platform staff who often forget the Tonbridge trains existence(deliberately?)

 

[RPI]

Digby & Sowton when Exeter chiefs are at home is total bedlam, once the platform is full theres nowhere else to put people!

 

[Hydro]

See, this is what I mean. How can a point motor cost half a million quid?

Because there's more to S&C than a point motor?

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Because there's more to S&C than a point motor?

I don't doubt that by the time someone's done the accounting a set of S&C plus associated point motors could cost half a million but an individual point motor?

 

[Hydro]

but an individual point motor?

...doesn't cost half a million quid. No mention of paying half a mill for any point motors in Bald Rick's post.

 

[NightatLaira]

...doesn't cost half a million quid. No mention of paying half a mill for any point motors in Bald Rick's post.

True, but I know what he's getting at...

Are we honestly saying that a single set of points cost £500,000GBP at todays prices? That's insane! I know they're all individually tailored but £500k! You've got to be kidding me...

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes, half a million, and that was 4 years ago. The price is about the same now, notwithstanding inflation.

Aside from the materials, the metal parts of which are finely machined to fractions of a millimetre, there is the not insubstantial cost of the blokes and machines required to lift the old stuff out and the new stuff in, to tolerances of less than 2mm. Add in the cost of ...

points drive (motor and connections)
detection circuitry
local cabling
installing new conductor rail (or moving OLE which is much more expensive)
points heating
remote monitoring kit
new power supply (usualy due for renewal at the same time)
all the grey boxes for the above
getting all of it to the site, and all the old stuff away
design
pre construction checks
contractors profit margin
project manager to sort all the above

I'll stop now.

 

[Hydro]

Depends on the points. New standards mean you've got a fairly narrow scope to adhere to when it comes to the components and materials you can use. Especially if the design has opted for some all-singing, all-dancing smart technology HPSS affair on tasty UIC60 shallow depth switches, and beautifully cast monobloc crossings. That's before any consideration is given to more complex designs that need diamonds, or obtuse crossings at odd angles.

I'm not denying it's too expensive (or right, for that matter), far from it, but it's easily achievable when you have to order the (specific, to stay in standard) component parts from several companies each of whom have their profit margins to keep up.