Morecambe line

[yorksrob]

A lot of these suggestions seem to involve running a sprinter on a non-trivial portion of the WCML? Surely that just wouldn't work, because they're too slow. Any of these suggestions would surely also need a "new" minimum 100mph train, probably with some cracking acceleration (tilt?), so it doesn't get in the way of the Pendos.

Is there anything out there that would be able to run that service? Maybe the spare 185s, I guess, but they aren't exactly perfect solutions (hell, TPE are getting the 397s so they don't run 100mph trains on the WCML).

Or is this a suggestion to 4-track the WCML between Preston and Lancaster?

The 144 seems to manage well enough between Lancaster and Carnforth.

 

[absolutelymilk]

A lot of these suggestions seem to involve running a sprinter on a non-trivial portion of the WCML? Surely that just wouldn't work, because they're too slow. Any of these suggestions would surely also need a "new" minimum 100mph train, probably with some cracking acceleration (tilt?), so it doesn't get in the way of the Pendos.

Is there anything out there that would be able to run that service? Maybe the spare 185s, I guess, but they aren't exactly perfect solutions (hell, TPE are getting the 397s so they don't run 100mph trains on the WCML).

Or is this a suggestion to 4-track the WCML between Preston and Lancaster?

There are around 6tph in each direction between Preston and Lancaster. One of these is already the Manchester Airport - Barrow service, which is normally a Sprinter (I think?) anyway. Assuming this will be replaced by a 195, then there should be enough space to run say a 170 once they arrive?

Just to be clear, I don't think this station would be open in the next five years at least, so there is plenty of time to work out rolling stock!

 

[The Planner]

A lot of these suggestions seem to involve running a sprinter on a non-trivial portion of the WCML? Surely that just wouldn't work, because they're too slow. Any of these suggestions would surely also need a "new" minimum 100mph train, probably with some cracking acceleration (tilt?), so it doesn't get in the way of the Pendos.

Is there anything out there that would be able to run that service? Maybe the spare 185s, I guess, but they aren't exactly perfect solutions (hell, TPE are getting the 397s so they don't run 100mph trains on the WCML).

Or is this a suggestion to 4-track the WCML between Preston and Lancaster?

How do you think we fit in Class 4 freight? and we want more of them. Just because its 75mph it doesn't ban it from being used.

 

[randyrippley]

The 1980s Leeds-Lancaster trains included loco-hauled workings with 31s the norm. Though I never witnessed it I believe one of the summer Saturday Morecambe trains was also loco-hauled on occasion: obviously this became impossible when Morecambe was rationalised.

I've lived in Morecambe since ~1982 and have never seen a class 31 on a scheduled service there. If it happened it was rare - every train I saw there was a DMU of some kind. The last loco-hauled train (outside of charters) I saw at Morecambe was a class 50 in 1977 (presumably also a charter)

I wonder if anyone knows how the passenger numbers have been affected since the new Lancaster to Morecambe bypass opened? Presumably they have dropped as the bypass makes it much easier to get to Lancaster.

I doubt it they have. To be truthful the bypass has scarcely affected road traffic in Lancaster as most vehicles are heading to/from the University.

What WILL have a potential impact on rail traffic is the impending closure for rebuilding of Greyhound bridge. This is the former LNW rail bridge over the Lune in Lancaster, now taking all Morecambe bound traffic. Its in danger of imminent collapse and the county council have applied to the government for emergency funds to remove and replace the road deck. Its closure will create massive problems and improved rail services will be essential. Even if the council don't get the cash, closure of the bridge within the next two years is inevitable.

I'm sure it was a deliberate rationalisation to save operating cost.

While Bare Lane box was still open (closed 2013, I think), each single track from there to Morecambe had I believe some sort of token arrangement. Being operated in effect as two independent parallel single line token sections. On the southern 'Heysham' track, this also allows the train crew to operate ground frame at Morecambe for the points to/from Heysham, plus the run-round loop at Morecambe station (necessary for loco hauled trains, including the nuclear flasks). This avoided the cost of powering/motorising the points.

Not sure how the token works now that Bare Lane box has gone (into Preston PSB)

It was done as part of an overall cost reduction / resignalling scheme to allow the reopening of the Heysham branch to passenger traffic. The branch had to be singled and the signals removed to make the line safe - and cheap enough to use. It was done at the request of (and used money from) the Isle of Man Steampacket (who were tied in with Sealink) who wanted to reinstate rail services to the port. Simplifying the Morecambe line was done at the same time

If you combined it with building a station at Lancaster University (there's plenty of land to put in passing loops there too so long distance trains can overtake), you'd also have a potentially very large, market for University staff/students, many of whom would then very likely choose to live in Morecambe, where there's less housing pressure than in Lancaster, and commute by train.

I keep saying this and keep getting ignored........there is already a passing loop there which could be used, and historically there was a private station there to serve Bailrigg House - the estate of which is now the University. A single platform station, with reverse facilities would be easy

why did Beeching have to close the electrified direct route? .

Because the county council lobbied to convert Greyhound Bridge to road use. The original plan was to keep the electric route open

 

[glbotu]

How do you think we fit in Class 4 freight? and we want more of them. Just because its 75mph it doesn't ban it from being used.

Yes, but the more 75mph trains you stick down the mainline, the worse the capacity gets, right (assuming you don't reduce the number of 125mph Pendos).

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, but the more 75mph trains you stick down the mainline, the worse the capacity gets, right (assuming you don't reduce the number of 125mph Pendos).

Shouldn't we be routing the freight ones via Hellifield and Appleby anyway ?

 

[70014IronDuke]

The 144 seems to manage well enough between Lancaster and Carnforth.

He has a point. As we all know, Carnforth - Lancaster is 6? miles, Lancaster-Preston is 21 or so.

A new or lengthened loop at any Lancaster University station would help, of course.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Shouldn't we be routing the freight ones via Hellifield and Appleby anyway ?

I've read on here that there are clearance issues for Intermodal services on the S & C.

 

[yorksrob]

I've read on here that there are clearance issues for Intermodal services on the S & C.

That's a shame if that's the case.

 

[The Planner]

Indeed, the S&C is not even W8 so useless for Intermodal.

 

[The Planner]

Yes, but the more 75mph trains you stick down the mainline, the worse the capacity gets, right (assuming you don't reduce the number of 125mph Pendos).

Depends how you do it, unless we sort out pretty much all of Preston Carlisle you are going to end up with flights of trains, a set of freight and a set of fast passenger trains with lop sided timetables in the future.

 

[Greybeard33]

There are around 6tph in each direction between Preston and Lancaster. One of these is already the Manchester Airport - Barrow service, which is normally a Sprinter (I think?) anyway. Assuming this will be replaced by a 195, then there should be enough space to run say a 170 once they arrive?

Just to be clear, I don't think this station would be open in the next five years at least, so there is plenty of time to work out rolling stock!

No, only 1tpd from Barrow to Manchester Airport is Sprinter-operated, plus 2tpd from Oxford Road to Barrow. The other 2tpd each way are still operated by the 100mph 185s that Northern sub-leases from TPE.

 

[QueensCurve]

With the naval reactors I would think its more that they are worried about Russian/Soviet espionage as there is much less espionage involved with civil nuclear projects.

There is also the question of it not being "safeguarded" in accordance with the Non-Proliferation Treaty.

How this will be affected by he Government's proposal to withdraw from Euratom as a part of Brexit remains to be seen.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Out of interest, how much does it cost per mile to four-track an electrified line? (Assuming that no structures were in the way and earthworks were minimal)