Morecambe line

[QueensCurve]

Nope there aren't any rules with stopping as Greenpeace complained that they were being kept in goods yards in London overnight.

Its important to note though that the flasks themselves are almost impossible to break into and even if someone threw a grenade at them nothing would happen to them.

There are/were rules regarding the Naval reactor fuel but I wasn't aware of any pertaining to civil fuel.

 

[yorksrob]

A new station would be what, 2 miles south of Castle station? It would then be a 10 min walk to the centre of the campus area? I confess, I'm not sure how well sited Lancaster Castle is for the city centre - last time I was on the platform there was a Standard 5 as station pilot

For me it was a half an hour cycle ride. Quarter of an hour on the direct bus. It is closish but not really walking distance.

 

[thenorthern]

There are/were rules regarding the Naval reactor fuel but I wasn't aware of any pertaining to civil fuel.

With the naval reactors I would think its more that they are worried about Russian/Soviet espionage as there is much less espionage involved with civil nuclear projects.

 

[Chester1]

I am a graduate of Lancaster Uni and I disagree with the benefit of a University station. It would impact on WCML services and would have infrequent services compared with the town centre. It would need a shuttle bus to the campus because the hill is allot steeper than it looks on a map and the campus is huge. Combine lower frequency of service with the need for a shuttle bus and it becomes more convenient to use the existing station and the existing fast and regular bus services from outside the station or outside of the market. Aproximately 2/3rds of students live off campus so the pool of potential users is smaller than it intially appears.

The bus provides Morecambe with better rail connections than the train. I know its heretical to say here but frankly id reduce Morecambe services to just the services to Heysham and reopen the old line as a guided busway with the current cycle and footpath moved alongside. With plus bus tickets for bus services it would be better for most areas of Morecambe. Several years ago there were 8 buses per hour between Morecambe and Lancaster, id pressume the demand is still similiar to that. 8-12 using a busway and turning off to serve various different parts of the town would be much better than even half hourly train services. It would require some works in Lancaster to serve the station more often than now but its a viable route.

 

[yorksrob]

I am a graduate of Lancaster Uni and I disagree with the benefit of a University station. It would impact on WCML services and would have infrequent services compared with the town centre. It would need a shuttle bus to the campus because the hill is allot steeper than it looks on a map and the campus is huge. Combine lower frequency of service with the need for a shuttle bus and it becomes more convenient to use the existing station and the existing fast and regular bus services from outside the station or outside of the market. Aproximately 2/3rds of students live off campus so the pool of potential users is smaller than it intially appears.

The bus provides Morecambe with better rail connections than the train. I know its heretical to say here but frankly id reduce Morecambe services to just the services to Heysham and reopen the old line as a guided busway with the current cycle and footpath moved alongside. With plus bus tickets for bus services it would be better for most areas of Morecambe. Several years ago there were 8 buses per hour between Morecambe and Lancaster, id pressume the demand is still similiar to that. 8-12 using a busway and turning off to serve various different parts of the town would be much better than even half hourly train services. It would require some works in Lancaster to serve the station more often than now but its a viable route.

I was sympathetic with your post right up to 'guided busway'.

I can see there's an argument that most people just get the bus between campus and town, however I can't agree with the idea of reducing the existing Morecambe train. I regularly use the train from Leeds to Lancaster and whilst a lot of people leave at Lanky, the train never empties out. The Morecambe bit is clearly of value to residents and visitors alike.

A guided busway might stop at lots of places through town, however that's precisely what a lot of rail travellers want to avoid - they want to connect into main line services.

It's the difference between getting the bus straight between campus and the city, and getting the one that goes around the estate.

 

[markydh]

I am a graduate of Lancaster Uni and I disagree with the benefit of a University station. It would impact on WCML services and would have infrequent services compared with the town centre. It would need a shuttle bus to the campus because the hill is allot steeper than it looks on a map and the campus is huge. Combine lower frequency of service with the need for a shuttle bus and it becomes more convenient to use the existing station and the existing fast and regular bus services from outside the station or outside of the market. Aproximately 2/3rds of students live off campus so the pool of potential users is smaller than it intially appears.

The bus provides Morecambe with better rail connections than the train. I know its heretical to say here but frankly id reduce Morecambe services to just the services to Heysham and reopen the old line as a guided busway with the current cycle and footpath moved alongside. With plus bus tickets for bus services it would be better for most areas of Morecambe. Several years ago there were 8 buses per hour between Morecambe and Lancaster, id pressume the demand is still similiar to that. 8-12 using a busway and turning off to serve various different parts of the town would be much better than even half hourly train services. It would require some works in Lancaster to serve the station more often than now but its a viable route.

What utter idiocy. As someone who spent that first 18 years of my life in Morecambe and has been visiting my family there for the last 15 ½, I can assure you that there is absolutely no justification for what you propose. I travel on the shuttle at all times of day and it's very rare for the train to be quiet. At peak times, they can be rammed. The train is significantly cheaper than the bus and gets you right into the station for easy interchange. Lancaster station isn't an easy one to access by bus, with the roads being pretty narrow. And where exactly would you send your guided busway? You'd need a new bridge across the Lune if you were to avoid the still busy one way system. The costs would be astronomic.

 

[Nonsense]

I'm a Lancaster graduate and a Heysham resident. The Heysham branch goes past my window. Before the bypass opened, I spent many hours in traffic fantasising about local transport solutions. A spur to the Uni Underpass with a fast link to the centre might have improved on the bus services, especially to the north, as the Morecambe branch is well used at peak times, but a station on the mainline just isn't practical; that hill is formidable, especially for a hungover student with a nine o'clock lecture. The bus is slow and bumpy, but it drops off where you need to be and it passes close to almost every student street.

The bypass though, has revolutionised the Lancaster commute, with the only downside being the rush between 08:40 and 08:55, as everyone allows twenty minutes for the journey, as opposed to the 90 minutes required before.

With the garden village at Bailrigg promising a redesigned J33 north of Galgate, and the growing residential areas on the Quay building demand for a new Lune crossing to take pressure off the one way system, Lancaster finally has an adequate road network in its grasp. Not that I'd object to the direct line reopening all the way to Caton.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm a Lancaster graduate and a Heysham resident. The Heysham branch goes past my window. Before the bypass opened, I spent many hours in traffic fantasising about local transport solutions. A spur to the Uni Underpass with a fast link to the centre might have improved on the bus services, especially to the north, as the Morecambe branch is well used at peak times, but a station on the mainline just isn't practical; that hill is formidable, especially for a hungover student with a nine o'clock lecture. The bus is slow and bumpy, but it drops off where you need to be and it passes close to almost every student street.

The bypass though, has revolutionised the Lancaster commute, with the only downside being the rush between 08:40 and 08:55, as everyone allows twenty minutes for the journey, as opposed to the 90 minutes required before.

With the garden village at Bailrigg promising a redesigned J33 north of Galgate, and the growing residential areas on the Quay building demand for a new Lune crossing to take pressure off the one way system, Lancaster finally has an adequate road network in its grasp. Not that I'd object to the direct line reopening all the way to Caton.

Out of interest, if a simple wooden platform were to be built nearer to Heysham village, do you think there would be demand for extending Morecambe services towards Heysham ?

 

[absolutelymilk]

Looks like new stations are being built for around £10 million, I presume the university would be prepared to fund some of the cost if it looked like it might be viable.

Is there an equivalent to the golden rules of route reopenings for opening new stations?

 

[Nonsense]

Out of interest, if a simple wooden platform were to be built nearer to Heysham village, do you think there would be demand for extending Morecambe services towards Heysham ?

I'm not sure it would.

The question is where to place it for maximum benefit, but the line doesn't pass that close to potential customers, and skirts around the eastern edge of the town.

Others might have a higher threshold for walking distance to a station, but as the line leaves the port it passes the Trumacar estate (low income), a caravan park, and a modern housing development that isn't even served by bus. I could be wrong, but I don't imagine many users, its just not central enough. There is a bus, the 2x, that links Heysham direct to Lancaster without passing through any Lancaster or Morecambe suburbs.

How many would walk ten-fifteen-twenty minutes, for a fifteen minute train ride, with a longer walk at the other end, when the bus is practically door to door, and twenty minutes max? I'd like to see greater rail use, but I don't see much growth on the Heysham branch.

More services south from Morecambe though, that would drive some growth. I was a regular commuter from Morecambe to Leyland, and that was two changes, and I wasn't the only one travelling beyond Preston from Morecambe everyday. The sparks effect of wires to Morecambe, and direct commuter services to Manchester would soon transform Morecambe's fortunes.

 

[Nonsense]

Just to add though, another potential journey that I think might benefit the area is a through train from Windermere - Kendal - Oxenholme - Carnforth (new platforms) - Morecambe (reversal) - Lancaster - Preston and beyond.

There have been times I'd have taken the train to Kendal everyday if the option had been there, but had to drive instead. It would be a good excuse to electrify the line, assuming Windermere is wired too.

 

[Altnabreac]

Looks like new stations are being built for around £10 million, I presume the university would be prepared to fund some of the cost if it looked like it might be viable.

Is there an equivalent to the golden rules of route reopenings for opening new stations?

Not so far but let me have a stab at it:

• 5,000 population
• At least hourly service (preferably 2tph)
• Commuting potential to medium sized city (100k + population)
• Not causing major timetabling problems for existing fast services.
• Funding available for new station from housing development or park and ride potential

 

[absolutelymilk]

Not sure if it has been said before, but the station would be about 3 miles away from Lancaster station (assuming it was built by the main entrance)

Not so far but let me have a stab at it:

• 5,000 population
• At least hourly service (preferably 2tph)
• Commuting potential to medium sized city (100k + population)
• Not causing major timetabling problems for existing fast services.
• Funding available for new station from housing development or park and ride potential

By the time the new development is built then there will be around 10,000 staff/postgrads there all year and 10,000 undergraduates there for the majority of the year. What's more, university students/workers are normally higher users of rail, being (generally) more environmentally minded and also tend to travel more than the average person (both for conferences and to go home at Christmas/Easter and at the start and end of term)

Government backs Lancaster’s new ‘garden village’

There will also be 3,500 homes built as a garden village near Bailrigg. It is unclear exactly where, but they would surely be within walking distance of a possible station. Perhaps the garden village could even help fund the station?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looks like new stations are being built for around £10 million, I presume the university would be prepared to fund some of the cost if it looked like it might be viable.

Is there an equivalent to the golden rules of route reopenings for opening new stations?

As it's on the 2-track WCML it'd need loops, so the cost would be higher. Good idea, though.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm not sure it would.

The question is where to place it for maximum benefit, but the line doesn't pass that close to potential customers, and skirts around the eastern edge of the town.

Others might have a higher threshold for walking distance to a station, but as the line leaves the port it passes the Trumacar estate (low income), a caravan park, and a modern housing development that isn't even served by bus. I could be wrong, but I don't imagine many users, its just not central enough. There is a bus, the 2x, that links Heysham direct to Lancaster without passing through any Lancaster or Morecambe suburbs.

How many would walk ten-fifteen-twenty minutes, for a fifteen minute train ride, with a longer walk at the other end, when the bus is practically door to door, and twenty minutes max? I'd like to see greater rail use, but I don't see much growth on the Heysham branch.

More services south from Morecambe though, that would drive some growth. I was a regular commuter from Morecambe to Leyland, and that was two changes, and I wasn't the only one travelling beyond Preston from Morecambe everyday. The sparks effect of wires to Morecambe, and direct commuter services to Manchester would soon transform Morecambe's fortunes.

Ah cheers.

It seems like such a large urban area on the map, barely penetrated by the existing Morecambe service. I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned connecting into the wider network, rather than services into Lancaster City which are well served by the bus.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Altnabreac's list looks a reasonable first stab, although I'm not so sure about including the last condition about funding. The availability of funds now may well tell you how likely a station is to be built, but it isn't really so relevant to how successful a station would be once it was built - which I assume is the point of the rules!

Ignoring that clause, interestingly, Lancaster University satisfies most of the conditions:

From Altnabreac's list:

• 5,000 population. Tick. There are going to be something like that number resident at the University. However, there may be a problem with the rules here: The University is a commuting destination, not just a residential area, whereas your first stab at rules seems more designed for a station in a purely residential area.
• At least hourly service (preferably 2tph). Tick. 3tph.
• Commuting potential to medium sized city (100k + population). Tick. Preston must be around that big.
• Not causing major timetabling problems for existing fast services. Fail. I don't know if it would actually cause timetabling problems adding a couple of minutes to journey times, but there's clearly a big problem in terms of detracting from the attractiveness of long distance services if you add stops like this to them. That would of course be solved though if the Morecambe shuttle was extended to Preston or beyond.
• Funding available for new station from housing development or park and ride potential. Dubious relevance (as noted above)

 

[Shrimper]

As it's on the 2-track WCML it'd need loops, so the cost would be higher. Good idea, though.

There is already a loop in place (Oubeck) in both directions just south of the main university access road.

 

[Chester1]

What utter idiocy. As someone who spent that first 18 years of my life in Morecambe and has been visiting my family there for the last 15 ½, I can assure you that there is absolutely no justification for what you propose. I travel on the shuttle at all times of day and it's very rare for the train to be quiet. At peak times, they can be rammed. The train is significantly cheaper than the bus and gets you right into the station for easy interchange. Lancaster station isn't an easy one to access by bus, with the roads being pretty narrow. And where exactly would you send your guided busway? You'd need a new bridge across the Lune if you were to avoid the still busy one way system. The costs would be astronomic.

Even a full sprinter won't get close to matching bus usage. The vast majority of public transport journeys between Lancaster and Morecambe are on a bus. The train only makes sense if you live within walking distance of Morcambe or Bare Lane stations and are travelling further. For those that can't walk to the stations the bus is a better choice. I love trains but they are only part of a public transport mix. Buses are better for feeding large railway stations when the catchment area is wide. Two, three or even four stations on the line would not serve a significant number of people.

I'm a Lancaster graduate and a Heysham resident. The Heysham branch goes past my window. Before the bypass opened, I spent many hours in traffic fantasising about local transport solutions. A spur to the Uni Underpass with a fast link to the centre might have improved on the bus services, especially to the north, as the Morecambe branch is well used at peak times, but a station on the mainline just isn't practical; that hill is formidable, especially for a hungover student with a nine o'clock lecture. The bus is slow and bumpy, but it drops off where you need to be and it passes close to almost every student street.

The bypass though, has revolutionised the Lancaster commute, with the only downside being the rush between 08:40 and 08:55, as everyone allows twenty minutes for the journey, as opposed to the 90 minutes required before.

With the garden village at Bailrigg promising a redesigned J33 north of Galgate, and the growing residential areas on the Quay building demand for a new Lune crossing to take pressure off the one way system, Lancaster finally has an adequate road network in its grasp. Not that I'd object to the direct line reopening all the way to Caton.

If the Garden village happens then a new station might be viable. I am glad someone else has agreed that students walking from a station to campus is unrealistic. The Uni has been there for over 50 years and most of the arguments used in favour of a University station have applied for decades. As soon as you need a shuttle bus to get people from a University station around campus then you might as well not bother. When I was a student there was a regular fast bus from the railway station that stopped at the underpass and then went around the campus. In addition, there was a very regular service from the market stop to the underpass on a indirect route. I can't see how a Uni station would be an improvement on this especially as most students will be travelling on long distance trains that would not be likely to stop twice.

 

[yorksrob]

Even a full sprinter won't get close to matching bus usage. The vast majority of public transport journeys between Lancaster and Morecambe are on a bus. The train only makes sense if you live within walking distance of Morcambe or Bare Lane stations and are travelling further. For those that can't walk to the stations the bus is a better choice. I love trains but they are only part of a public transport mix. Buses are better for feeding large railway stations when the catchment area is wide. Two, three or even four stations on the line would not serve a significant number of people.

Trains are indeed part of the transport mix, hence those passengers who travel through to Morecambe currently. It would be foolish to remove the rail link to Morecambe and replace it with a busway, when there are already perfectly decent bus services to suit bus passengers.

When I lived in Lancaster, the bus was the main mode of choice to get to Morecambe, however there were occasions when the train was more convenient, particularly when I lived fairly close to Lancaster station for a year.

If the Garden village happens then a new station might be viable. I am glad someone else has agreed that students walking from a station to campus is unrealistic. The Uni has been there for over 50 years and most of the arguments used in favour of a University station have applied for decades. As soon as you need a shuttle bus to get people from a University station around campus then you might as well not bother. When I was a student there was a regular fast bus from the railway station that stopped at the underpass and then went around the campus. In addition, there was a very regular service from the market stop to the underpass on a indirect route. I can't see how a Uni station would be an improvement on this especially as most students will be travelling on long distance trains that would not be likely to stop twice.

I can remember that we used to walk down the hill to catch the express bus services running towards Preston on occasion. The railway line isn't that much further. If a local service towards Manchester were available, that could prove popular, compared to the rigmarole of getting into town and traipsing to Castle station.

 

[Ianno87]

There is already a loop in place (Oubeck) in both directions just south of the main university access road.

Loop entry/exit is quite slow, IIRC.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Even a full sprinter won't get close to matching bus usage. The vast majority of public transport journeys between Lancaster and Morecambe are on a bus. The train only makes sense if you live within walking distance of Morcambe or Bare Lane stations and are travelling further. For those that can't walk to the stations the bus is a better choice. I love trains but they are only part of a public transport mix. Buses are better for feeding large railway stations when the catchment area is wide. Two, three or even four stations on the line would not serve a significant number of people.

The problem with the guided bus idea is that the rail track potentially available to convert doesn't take you into Lancaster city centre: It takes you to the junction of the WCML. From there, you'd presumably need to use mostly existing roads to get into Lancaster - which is going to take just as long as it would've taken from Morecambe by the existing conventional buses in the first place! So you haven't gained anything, and you've lost the fact that with a train you can fairly quickly get to Lancaster station for connections to other places.

I am glad someone else has agreed that students walking from a station to campus is unrealistic. The Uni has been there for over 50 years and most of the arguments used in favour of a University station have applied for decades.

Alexandra Square to the most plausible location of a station is about 500m - about the same distance as my house to my nearest station - that didn't stop me walking to the station daily when I needed to commute. Indeed, there appear to be some drivers locally who regularly drive, and park their cars considerably further from the station to get the train (it's London - it's the closest you can easily park all day without a permit). And the hill round here is a lot higher than the one Lancaster University is on! Of course 500m will deter some people, but many others will happily see it as reasonable walking distance/their daily exercise. It's quite a pleasant walk too - past the sports fields and (possibly, depending on the route, the duck pond). (Maybe not as good if it's raining though )

As soon as you need a shuttle bus to get people from a University station around campus then you might as well not bother. When I was a student there was a regular fast bus from the railway station that stopped at the underpass and then went around the campus. In addition, there was a very regular service from the market stop to the underpass on a indirect route. I can't see how a Uni station would be an improvement on this especially as most students will be travelling on long distance trains that would not be likely to stop twice.

I can recall there being the bus from the station, although I don't think I ever used it. I'm struggling to imagine that it could meet the description of fast, given the route it would have had to take from the station round the one way system. I do agree with you that long distance trains would be unlikely to stop at a University station - but that is part of the point of the suggestion of extending the Morecambe shuttle!

 

[absolutelymilk]

I can recall there being the bus from the station, although I don't think I ever used it. I'm struggling to imagine that it could meet the description of fast, given the route it would have had to take from the station round the one way system. I do agree with you that long distance trains would be unlikely to stop at a University station - but that is part of the point of the suggestion of extending the Morecambe shuttle!

A Morecambe to Preston shuttle would allow commutes to the uni from Preston, Morecambe and Lancaster city, as well as tying into HS2 when it arrives.

 

[70014IronDuke]

A Morecambe to Preston shuttle would allow commutes to the uni from Preston, Morecambe and Lancaster city, as well as tying into HS2 when it arrives.

Why terminate it at Preston? Could it not, in the worst case (meaning least useful, but better than nothing) be extended to Ormskirk?

If the Morecambe DMU were not extended, as someone else mentioned, it would be the ideal time to put platfoms back in at Carnforth and run a Preston - Carnforth - Windermere EMU.

I don't believe Virgin WCML trains would ever stop there - except maybe those very early up train(s) that start at Lancaster - but I really think that if this Lancaster University + P+R station were put in, a bit like Corby - now being electrified less than a decade after being reinstated - within a very short time people would wonder why it wasn't done years ago.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Loop entry/exit is quite slow, IIRC.

Could it not be speeded up? Could it be connected to any new loop paths needed for a new station, giving a short section of four track line?

 

[The Planner]

Considering the exit signal will be a red and Id bet TPWS would have some severe over speed on the approach you might not get much benefit anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is already a loop in place (Oubeck) in both directions just south of the main university access road.

That might make a difference.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why terminate it at Preston? Could it not, in the worst case (meaning least useful, but better than nothing) be extended to Ormskirk?

There's going to have to be *something* extended to Ormskirk when it goes hourly - you can't do that with one unit (running time is about 29 minutes with almost no way of gaining from skip-stopping unless they plainlined Rufford) and if you don't interwork it with something you'll just have a pair of units and crews sat doing nothing for 31 minutes in every hour, which is a bit wasteful.

I *think*, but may be wrong (as I was a kid), when Ormskirk-Preston was last hourly with 2 units in the early 1990s it worked through to Blackpool South.

 

[Shrimper]

Loop entry/exit is quite slow, IIRC.

Indeed; it is also a goods loop so would require some changes before being used for passenger services. But those changes would be much easier than starting from scratch.

 

[Ianno87]

There's going to have to be *something* extended to Ormskirk when it goes hourly - you can't do that with one unit (running time is about 29 minutes with almost no way of gaining from skip-stopping unless they plainlined Rufford) and if you don't interwork it with something you'll just have a pair of units and crews sat doing nothing for 31 minutes in every hour, which is a bit wasteful.

I *think*, but may be wrong (as I was a kid), when Ormskirk-Preston was last hourly with 2 units in the early 1990s it worked through to Blackpool South.

Ormskirk to Morecambe would be a bit of a dog's breakfast operationally through Preston, having to weave its way Slow Line to Fast Line through the station area. Best bet in my view would be some sort of hourly Barrow-Manchester Airport making the call, giving 'interurban' type connectivity to Lancaster Uni as well as the station acting as a railhead for Manchester commuters from Lancaster and the surrounding area.

Blackpool South to Ormskirk would be operationally quite neat: the hourly Colne service currently crosses itself somewhere around Pleasington; divert it to Ormskirk, and that might be about right for crossing at Rufford instead, with something of a layover at Ormskirk. The stub of the Colne service could just terminate at Preston, with enough time for a shunt from Platform 1 to Platform 2 via the north end of the station somewhere.

 

[glbotu]

A lot of these suggestions seem to involve running a sprinter on a non-trivial portion of the WCML? Surely that just wouldn't work, because they're too slow. Any of these suggestions would surely also need a "new" minimum 100mph train, probably with some cracking acceleration (tilt?), so it doesn't get in the way of the Pendos.

Is there anything out there that would be able to run that service? Maybe the spare 185s, I guess, but they aren't exactly perfect solutions (hell, TPE are getting the 397s so they don't run 100mph trains on the WCML).

Or is this a suggestion to 4-track the WCML between Preston and Lancaster?