Morecambe - Lancaster

[Darren R]

You may well be right, that we are rail enthusiasts and we do dream of a better railway system and services. But that doesn't mean that we are always wrong.

You are quite right, Carnforth's Main Line platforms were taken out when the line was electrified, if my memory serves me right, sad to say. I agree that it might cause some delays, but the stupidity of have to travel through Carnforth if you are travelling from West Yorkshire to the Lake District on to Lancaster, get a train from there BACK through Carnforth and on to your destination. It must add at least 45 minutes to any such journey, if not longer.

The same argument can be made about most stations on every Inter-City route though. Bletchley, for instance, to name but one. I don't see that the lack of WCML platforms at Carnforth is such an issue (although, admittedly, I might not think that if I was affected by the lack thereof! )

Yes, the abscence of WCML platforms at Carnforth must inconvenience some passengers. But since the only passengers affected are those to and from the Skipton/Leeds and the Barrow-in-Furness lines wanting to go to Oxenholme, Kendal, Windermere and maybe Penrith I'd suggest it's really not that big a problem! Passengers wishing to continue from Yorkshire to Furness don't need to travel to Lancaster for their connection. I can't imagine that's a huge number of passengers incovenienced every year - certainly not enough to warrant the cost, upheavel whilst the platforms are rebuilt, and resultant operating difficulties from stopping main-line trains at Carnforth.

Personally I think the reinstatement of WCML platforms at Carnforth - even if only used by 'local' trains - is a solution in search of a problem. As NetworkRail would undoubtedly put it: It would disbenefit more customers than it benefits.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If Carnforth was ever to receive approval for the reinstatement of its main line platforms with services stopping there, you can be assured that those in the Garstang and Catteral area would also be clamouring for the reinstatement of their railway station and stopping services.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Sorry, that was not clear. I was talking the other way. Getting people in the lakes to head South. The only other option is Penrith.

Ah, that makes a lot more sense. Yes, I can see that could be useful for allowing more people to connect to the train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, the abscence of WCML platforms at Carnforth must inconvenience some passengers. But since the only passengers affected are those to and from the Skipton/Leeds and the Barrow-in-Furness lines wanting to go to Oxenholme, Kendal, Windermere and maybe Penrith I'd suggest it's really not that big a problem!

I don't think that's completely true. People heading south are also affected because it means fewer trains are available.

The real problem over the whole stretch from Preston to Carnforth is that you have a high speed long-distance line going through a couple of quite highly populated areas, but which has been designed for long distance, not local, traffic. The result is you have (in my view) considerable suppressed demand for local journeys due to the relative infrequency/erratic timings of the trains and lack of stations, as well as many local passengers between Lancaster and Preston cramming onto long-distance trains that aren't really intended for that purpose.

Ideally you probably want the line 4-tracked from Preston to Carnforth (I suspect that may be true between Euxton and Warrington too, though have no direct experience of that area). That would allow a decent service for local passengers without affecting capacity for fast trains, and new stations at places like Hest Bank, Galgate (parkway for Lancaster and can just about serve the University), Garstang, Broughton (M55 parkway for Preston), and Blackpool Road (heavily populated area in the north of Preston) as well as perhaps allowing Windermere services to stop at Carnforth.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If Carnforth was ever to receive approval for the reinstatement of its main line platforms with services stopping there, you can be assured that those in the Garstang and Catteral area would also be clamouring for the reinstatement of their railway station and stopping services.

Nothing wrong with that Garstang and Catterall would be big enough to generate a fair bit of traffic. An additional problem though is that the line doesn't really go near the town. I've often wondered whether a spur into Garstang would make a good solution. The land there is quite flat, and the shape of Garstang, with open countryside directly to the East of the town centre, would mean you could get a station practically in the town centre without too much trouble, although possibly at a cost of trains needing to reverse there.

 

[PR1Berske]

The 2-tracks of the WCML out of Preston towards Garstang and beyond have almost no space available to be 4-tracked, so there goes that dream (and before people bring it up, I have always said that my alternative to HS2 would be expanding lines and building stations *where possible*)

 

[joeykins82]

I don't think anyone would expect the VT services to stop at Carnforth but presumably the Manchester-Scotland TPE services could without causing disruption. That'd give a service up to Carlisle etc which didn't involve going down to Lancaster.

 

[Dunc108]

I don't think anyone would expect the VT services to stop at Carnforth but presumably the Manchester-Scotland TPE services could without causing disruption. That'd give a service up to Carlisle etc which didn't involve going down to Lancaster.

Thats how i envisaged it if main line plats came back, all TPEs with maybe the occasional Edinburgh - Birmingham, a bit like Lockerbie, but enough to open up the potential for connections...

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The 2-tracks of the WCML out of Preston towards Garstang and beyond have almost no space available to be 4-tracked, so there goes that dream

Are you sure of that? When I've travelled on that route, it certainly looks from the train like there's quite a bit of space either side of the track for a mile or so out of Preston. Beyond that around Preston I'm not so sure and Google maps suggests a mile or so of built up area on both sides of the track which could make widening difficult. But after that the line runs largely through open countryside as far as Galgate. North of that there are some pinch points where widening would be difficult. The bridge at Galgate, and Carnforth station itself are obvious ones. There are stretches where widening would involve compulsorily purchasing gardens, which is not something I relish, but's not uncommon in a major infrastructure project.

Putting together what I can see from the train, what I know of the local area around Lancaster, and looking at Google maps, I'd say 4-tracking most of the route looks perfectly possible, but there will be a few stretches where dropping to 2 tracks may be necessary.

 

[PR1Berske]

Are you sure of that? When I've travelled on that route, it certainly looks from the train like there's quite a bit of space either side of the track for a mile or so out of Preston. Beyond that around Preston I'm not so sure and Google maps suggests a mile or so of built up area on both sides of the track which could make widening difficult. But after that the line runs largely through open countryside as far as Galgate. North of that there are some pinch points where widening would be difficult. The bridge at Galgate, and Carnforth station itself are obvious ones. There are stretches where widening would involve compulsorily purchasing gardens, which is not something I relish, but's not uncommon in a major infrastructure project.

Putting together what I can see from the train, what I know of the local area around Lancaster, and looking at Google maps, I'd say 4-tracking most of the route looks perfectly possible, but there will be a few stretches where dropping to 2 tracks may be necessary.

Immediately inside the City of Preston on the approach into the station is nigh on impossible:

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=inkerman+street,+preston&ll=53.773069,-2.719005&spn=0.001855,0.004823&hnear=Inkerman+St,+Preston,+Lancashire+PR2+2BN,+United+Kingdom&gl=uk&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=53.773069,-2.719005&panoid=IXtulrKKAhhHxW7KL5ViWg&cbp=12,78.64,,0,6.91

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Cadley+Causeway,+Fulwood&hl=en&ll=53.780001,-2.72145&spn=0.007417,0.01929&sll=53.773069,-2.719005&sspn=0.001867,0.004823&oq=cadley+ca&t=h&gl=uk&hnear=Cadley+Causeway,+Fulwood,+Preston,+United+Kingdom&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.780001,-2.72145&panoid=FU6MP4vUOzdRTBgqXnK_vg&cbp=12,166.59,,0,6.81

 

[Darren R]

I'm all for station re-openings and infrastructure improvements - but you have to be sensible about these things. All this talk of widening to four tracks between Preston and Lancaster seems a bit OTT. The last station to close was Garstang & Catterall, which lasted until 1969; all the others didn't even make it into the 1940s. The area between Preston and Lancaster (and beyond) is largely rural. Garstang is the largest settlement, and even including Catterall as well that's barely 6000 residents. Carnforth's population is less than that. Four-tracking between Preston and Lancaster - let alone building a branch line into Garstang - is an awful lot of money to be spending for virtually no benefit.

As for reinstating the main-line platforms at Carnforth - I still say it's just not worth the expense and disruption. The town has just over 5000 residents (well, according to Wikipedia!). Even including the catchment area and passengers from further afield changing trains there - seriously, just how many extra passengers are going to use the train just because they can get from Carnforth to Oxenholme, Windermere and Penrith a bit quicker?

 

[billio]

Even including the catchment area and passengers from further afield changing trains there - seriously, just how many extra passengers are going to use the train just because they can get from Carnforth to Oxenholme, Windermere and Penrith a bit quicker?

I think the issue is more a question of improving services from West Yorkshire to Kendal and Windermere. A slow route by car, with little chance of improvement, and a slow route by rail due to the way services interconnect.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Do many of the forum membership find that attempting to visit the Ravenglass and Eskdale Railway by rail for a days' visit when travelling from either West Yorkshire or the areas in the Manchester and Liverpool regions a difficult proposition to face, as you have to pass through the area of this thread to do so ?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

From Manchester it's not so bad, it's just an early start, 0717 from Manchester Victoria with one change (Preston). The 1654 return journey has the same connection, giving around six hours there and arriving back before 2100, long day though. I'd imagine Liverpool has a similar connection at Preston.

 

[yorksrob]

Do many of the forum membership find that attempting to visit the Ravenglass and Eskdale Railway by rail for a days' visit when travelling from either West Yorkshire or the areas in the Manchester and Liverpool regions a difficult proposition to face, as you have to pass through the area of this thread to do so ?

Not done the Ravensglass and Eskdale yet, but from West Yorkshire, Barrow is generally do-able but any further around the coast tends to become problematic - sometimes have to get a taxi from the rugby ground to one of the stations near Whitehaven to make the train back.

 

[billio]

Leaving Leeds at 8-19 and getting back into Leeds at 21-23 (in order to get bus home - there is a later train) gives about 4 hours and forty minutes in Ravenglass. To be fair, the slower part of the journey is after Carnforth.

Almost 8 hours traveling on the train.

Its 107 miles by road (A65, much further in distance by M62-M6) and its probably going to take about 6 hours driving in total for the return journey.

This just illustrates that whatever way you go, getting to the Lakes from Yorkshire isn't quick.

 

[30907]

I think the issue is more a question of improving services from West Yorkshire to Kendal and Windermere. A slow route by car, with little chance of improvement, and a slow route by rail due to the way services interconnect.

The time saving by reopening Carnforth main line would be about 12 minutes, but you would have to offset against that the additional 4 minutes for the other passengers (who would be the vast majority, I fear).

In the days before Windermere services started running through to Manchester, I recall devising a timetable based around a regular Leeds-Lancaster-Windermere service, but it's pretty obvious that Manchester is a more sensible choice.

Now if there could be better connections...and a CDR at a similar level to the Manchester one...

 

[Dunc108]

The time saving by reopening Carnforth main line would be about 12 minutes, but you would have to offset against that the additional 4 minutes for the other passengers (who would be the vast majority, I fear).

In the days before Windermere services started running through to Manchester, I recall devising a timetable based around a regular Leeds-Lancaster-Windermere service, but it's pretty obvious that Manchester is a more sensible choice.

Now if there could be better connections...and a CDR at a similar level to the Manchester one...

Ironically, its probably quicker at the moment doing Leeds - Preston via Hebden Bridge then catching a Manchester - Windermere or Voyager at Preston, than all stations via Skipton, then a reversal at Lancaster.

 

[LWB]

Leaving Leeds at 8-19 and getting back into Leeds at 21-23 (in order to get bus home - there is a later train) gives about 4 hours and forty minutes in Ravenglass. To be fair, the slower part of the journey is after Carnforth.

Almost 8 hours traveling on the train.

Its 107 miles by road (A65, much further in distance by M62-M6) and its probably going to take about 6 hours driving in total for the return journey.

This just illustrates that whatever way you go, getting to the Lakes from Yorkshire isn't quick.

Strongly agree

Tend to disagree

North Leeds (Weetwood) to Newby Bridge (southern tip of Windermere) is 2 hrs by car at steady pace 95% of the time. The rest is either getting through Leeds or meandering around the Lake District. The A65 is really not bad. By rail the situation is dire! Sometime ago I posted asking if people thought that the appalling timetabling was an attempt to throttle the Carnforth- Leeds line out of existence.
On the matter of usage, I think there is great potential for direct services from South Lakeland to West Yorkshire. I have introduced many friends to the idea of driving down to Ilkley and then taking the sort of train service that should be on the whole line straight into Leeds. A day shopping, no city traffic, lovely scenery but shouldn't need to take the car 75% of the way.

 

[30907]

Ironically, its probably quicker at the moment doing Leeds - Preston via Hebden Bridge then catching a Manchester - Windermere or Voyager at Preston, than all stations via Skipton, then a reversal at Lancaster.

Leeds-Preston and Leeds-Lancaster times direct are very similar, but the connections at Lancaster are pretty poor (they were not too bad a few years back) - not to mention the frequency via Preston is much better.

 

[Dunc108]

I agree - though initially "post Beeching" Leeds-Morecambes didn't serve Lancaster at all (until around 1980?).
When the service was reduced pre-privatisation to more or less its present level, it was almost entirely Leeds-Lancaster only for several years (Morecambe as a resort having become very run down!) - which again indicates where the market mainly is.

Certainly since Bubbles & Frontierland closed, Morecambe has had no major visitor attractions for it to remain relevant. Sure the Midland Hotel refurbishment is great and theyre even using the Winter Gardens for periodical events now (but it still needs alot of work), but it needs a Sealife Centre or something substantial to call its own.

 

[Sox]

Certainly since Bubbles & Frontierland closed, Morecambe has had no major visitor attractions for it to remain relevant. Sure the Midland Hotel refurbishment is great and theyre even using the Winter Gardens for periodical events now (but it still needs alot of work), but it needs a Sealife Centre or something substantial to call its own.

Reminds me of the sad story of Rocky the dolphin:

http://marineanimalwelfare.com/intoblue.htm

 

[LWB]

Certainly since Bubbles & Frontierland closed, Morecambe has had no major visitor attractions for it to remain relevant. Sure the Midland Hotel refurbishment is great and theyre even using the Winter Gardens for periodical events now (but it still needs alot of work), but it needs a Sealife Centre or something substantial to call its own.

Not to mention the sad demise of Happy Mount Park following the Mister Blobby affair.

 

[yorksrob]

Not to mention the sad demise of Happy Mount Park following the Mister Blobby affair.

Wasn't there talk of it becoming an open prison at one point ?

 

[LWB]

Don't know, but I'm going to put my head above the parapet and own up to liking HMP (was your comment a play on the initials by the way?). I'm sixty now and can remember being brought over from Leeds as a kid on evening trips over the Carnforth- Settle jcn route Magical! I took my kids there and they loved it too. I guess the grandkids are out of luck then!

 

[yorksrob]

Don't know, but I'm going to put my head above the parapet and own up to liking HMP (was your comment a play on the initials by the way?). I'm sixty now and can remember being brought over from Leeds as a kid on evening trips over the Carnforth- Settle jcn route Magical! I took my kids there and they loved it too. I guess the grandkids are out of luck then!

Ha, no - didn't realise it was a play on HMP

I just remember reading that it was being considered to solve a prison crisis a few years after the demise of Noel Edmond's ill fated Crinkly Bottom related enterprise.

 

[Dunc108]

142031 at Morecambe on Sunday, 142s are rare in Morecambe but do appear on some Leeds diagrams. This may have appeared instead of a 144..

 

[yorksrob]

142031 at Morecambe on Sunday, 142s are rare in Morecambe but do appear on some Leeds diagrams. This may have appeared instead of a 144..

Not rare enough on that line, in my experience.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Happy Mount Park appears to be in the best part of Morecambe.

 

[Dunc108]

Not rare enough on that line, in my experience.

Theyre not as frequent as they were a few years ago, its mostly 153s & 156s used between Cumbrian Coast workings, but 142s now nowhere near as frequent here as Wigan - Southport, even Blackpool especially the south Fylde line..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Happy Mount Park appears to be in the best part of Morecambe.

Yes Bare has always been the "posh" end of Morecambe! Bare Lane station is always looked after by local residents with flower tubs etc, theyve even got PIS screens before Morecambe!

 

[Darren R]

Not rare enough on that line, in my experience.

I don't see why Leeds - Morecambe should be spared the delights of Northern's finest! (Bet it's fun at Carnforth on a Pacer! )

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't see why Leeds - Morecambe should be spared the delights of Northern's finest! (Bet it's fun at Carnforth on a Pacer! )

Just having a happy daydream in which a regulation had been issued to say that Pacers of any type were not allowed north of Watford..