Morecambe - Lancaster

[Dunc108]

How would matters seem once the Windermere branch is fully electrified ?

Perhaps pre-electrification... but yes, once the wires are up, Leeds - Windermere diesels under the wires will be absurd.
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Well, there's more to Cumbria than Windemere. Cartmel, Grange Over Sands and South Lakeland to name but a few are all quite picturesque and accessible from the Barrow route. Then you have residents of Barrow and Whitehaven etc who may have reason to visit Yorkshire.

Yes, Barrow/Grange could be a possibility, but very circuourtous if still having a Lancaster reversal & is there really demand/market for travel between Leeds - South Cumbria? the former direct line at Carnforth could have been useful.

 

[yorksrob]

Perhaps pre-electrification... but yes, once the wires are up, Leeds - Windermere diesels under the wires will be absurd.
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Yes, Barrow/Grange could be a possibility, but very circuourtous if still having a Lancaster reversal & is there really demand/market for travel between Leeds - South Cumbria? the former direct line at Carnforth could have been useful.

With decent connections at Carnforth you could have the best of both worlds !

 

[Dunc108]

With decent connections at Carnforth you could have the best of both worlds !

Perhaps if they put in a North Chord at Carnforth allowing Manchester - Windermere's to stop it would suddenly make Leeds\Skipton\Furness connections alot more desirable, perhaps if they threw in a few Carnforth - Skipton's interspersed with the Morecambe -Leeds it would look alot more attractive aswell as catering more effectively for local needs.

 

[Buttsy]

Ah thanks. I had no idea Lancaster was missed out until so late. A particularly poor piece of planning, bearing in mind that without mainline platforms at Carnforth, there would have been no connection to the WCML!

Originally after diversion via Carnforth, most services served Morecambe before Lancaster and Lancaster - Morecambe - Carnforth.
the change to Lancaster first was part of the strategy to close the S&C as WCML connections would be made at Lancaster. On the re-routing, Inter-City Trans-Pennine units were used on semi-fast services to Lancaster.

 

[yorksrob]

Perhaps if they put in a North Chord at Carnforth allowing Manchester - Windermere's to stop it would suddenly make Leeds\Skipton\Furness connections alot more desirable, perhaps if they threw in a few Carnforth - Skipton's interspersed with the Morecambe -Leeds it would look alot more attractive aswell as catering more effectively for local needs.

Yes - it could work.

Having some additional services from Lancaster to Skipton with onward connections would certainly be a cheaper way of improving the service. Could be particularly useful in extending the operational day of the line as the last train from Lancaster is only 19:20 !
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Originally after diversion via Carnforth, most services served Morecambe before Lancaster and Lancaster - Morecambe - Carnforth.
the change to Lancaster first was part of the strategy to close the S&C as WCML connections would be made at Lancaster. On the re-routing, Inter-City Trans-Pennine units were used on semi-fast services to Lancaster.

Ah, that's not so bad then. Looking at the map, either one could go first without too much trouble, although I suspect Lancaster is probably a more important destination from points East today than Morecambe.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Having some additional services from Lancaster to Skipton with onward connections would certainly be a cheaper way of improving the service. Could be particularly useful in extending the operational day of the line as the last train from Lancaster is only 19:20 !

Interestingly, as far as I can tell from the local Route Utilisation Strategy a few years ago, it seems Network Rail did seriously consider curtailing the route to run Lancaster-Skipton, specifically because that would mean they could run a more frequent service with the same number of trains. Obviously it never got implemented, possibly they figured it wasn't worth the loss of people having to change at Skipton.

 

[yorksrob]

Interestingly, as far as I can tell from the local Route Utilisation Strategy a few years ago, it seems Network Rail did seriously consider curtailing the route to run Lancaster-Skipton, specifically because that would mean they could run a more frequent service with the same number of trains. Obviously it never got implemented, possibly they figured it wasn't worth the loss of people having to change at Skipton.

Well that's possibly true. I can see that you wouldn't want to risk losing the current through trains as people do prefer to travel direct. That said, they've done a similar thing on the S&C with a last train connecting into the electric service at Skipton.

 

[nw1]

I think that's a rather downbeat assessment of the route's potential. Given a better service and better fares, it could become a useful route between Leeds and Cumbria. 50 - 60 quid between the two doesn't make it particularly competitive.

I'm not sure that the Carnforth route adds that much time. Is the WCML prohibitively full at this point ?

£50-60? Where in Cumbria? Unless it's somewhere like Carlisle, that must be one of the most expensive fares in the country given the distance! Compare that to the £15 return (£10 with a railcard) Southampton-Eastbourne, 80 miles in the "affluent" south, which at the other extreme is extraordinarily cheap - or more typically, a Southampton-Bristol return at £34.50.

 

[yorksrob]

£50-60? Where in Cumbria? That must be one of the most expensive fares in the country given the as-the-crow-flies distance! Compare that to the £15 return (£10 with a railcard) Southampton-Eastbourne, 80 miles in the "affluent" south.

Even something like Southampton-London, off peak, is less than that.

Certainly Leeds - Whitehaven's in that range. I think you can get it down a bit with splitting, but not that much.

 

[L&Y Robert]

Thanks, Darren R for the gen on the Burnley-Nelson-Colne rail-motor. Yes of course "Reedly HALLOWS Halt". One forgets . . .

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Certainly Leeds - Whitehaven's in that range. I think you can get it down a bit with splitting, but not that much.

Leeds to Whitehaven is £59.70 anytime return.

I am intruiged at the stated cost of £170.60 First Class return, as the benefits of the First Class travel are not there for all of this journey.

 

[nw1]

Leeds to Whitehaven is £59.70 anytime return.

I am intruiged at the stated cost of £170.60 First Class return, as the benefits of the First Class travel are not there for all of this journey.

That is a lot... I presume it's due to the high rail mileage and the fact you have to loop right round the Lake District to get there. Leeds-Windermere seems a lot less.

EDIT: just checked Leeds-Windermere train times out of curiosity. While the quickest way is often via Hebden Bridge, at times it's quicker to go via Manchester Piccadilly... very counter intuitive! The only problem with speeding up "mainline" services is it encourages everyone to go that way, leading to overcrowding and threatening the viability of secondary routes like said Leeds-Lancaster route. Even Leeds-Preston (where there is a direct train) seems to be quicker via Manchester every 2 hours!

 

[PR1Berske]

Any expansion of Carnforth is doomed to fail because the mighty/untouchable Virgin won't allow it.

 

[bluenoxid]

How much space is there around Carnforth to develop a car park and park and ride. We are talking a massive potential gateway for the Lakes and local area which is much easier to access from the M6 than Lancaster and Preston (even after the Heysham Link Road is put in). I assume an extension of the A601M to Warton Road.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How much space is there around Carnforth to develop a car park and park and ride. We are talking a massive potential gateway for the Lakes and local area which is much easier to access from the M6 than Lancaster and Preston (even after the Heysham Link Road is put in). I assume an extension of the A601M to Warton Road.

Has this "park and ride" matter ever been submitted to be a part of the future transport plan of this region ?

 

[bluenoxid]

I highly doubt it but a fresh pair of eyes can knock the teeth out of the consensus.

Is electrification of the Morecambe branch part of the transport plan for this region?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

How much space is there around Carnforth to develop a car park and park and ride. We are talking a massive potential gateway for the Lakes and local area which is much easier to access from the M6 than Lancaster and Preston (even after the Heysham Link Road is put in). I assume an extension of the A601M to Warton Road.

Why would someone who's already on the M6 turn off at Carnforth to get an hourly train that only goes as far as Windermere (assuming platforms are built at Carnforth for it), when by staying on the M6, they can get directly to Windermere almost entirely at 50mph or faster[1], and then continue in the same car to Bowness/Ambleside/Coniston/etc.

I'd love to see less road traffic in the Lake District, but I'd imagine a park and ride would need rather more incentive in terms of frequent service to the most common final destinations, amount of congestion being avoided, to attract people.

[1] As I recall, Ings (40mph) is the only significant exception until you hit the border of Windermere itself.
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I highly doubt it but a fresh pair of eyes can knock the teeth out of the consensus.

Is electrification of the Morecambe branch part of the transport plan for this region?

Not to my knowledge.

 

[yorksrob]

Of course , it goes without saying that 142‘s are entirely unsuitable for the Leeds - Morecambe route. And needless to say, today we get a 142.
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And to cap it all, some cretin‘s managed to block the toilet with paper towels.

 

[bluenoxid]

Why would someone who's already on the M6 turn off at Carnforth to get an hourly train that only goes as far as Windermere (assuming platforms are built at Carnforth for it), when by staying on the M6, they can get directly to Windermere almost entirely at 50mph or faster[1], and then continue in the same car to Bowness/Ambleside/Coniston/etc.

I'd love to see less road traffic in the Lake District, but I'd imagine a park and ride would need rather more incentive in terms of frequent service to the most common final destinations, amount of congestion being avoided, to attract people.

[1] As I recall, Ings (40mph) is the only significant exception until you hit the border of Windermere itself.

Sorry, that was not clear. I was talking the other way. Getting people in the lakes to head South. The only other option is Penrith.

Of course , it goes without saying that 142‘s are entirely unsuitable for the Leeds - Morecambe route. And needless to say, today we get a 142.
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And to cap it all, some cretin‘s managed to block the toilet with paper towels.

Could be a bus instead.

 

[yorksrob]

To cap it all, it's the same mobile crap heap coming back as well. I paid twenty pounds for this. A bad weekends travelling all around .

 

[Dunc108]

Theyve installed brand new PIS screens at Bare Lane station I trust Morecambe station is getting them aswell?

 

[PR1Berske]

Theyve installed brand new PIS screens at Bare Lane station I trust Morecambe station is getting them aswell?

That seems an awful waste of money when, say, neither Burscough station has them (or Bamber Bridge, if I recall).....

 

[Grumpy]

That seems an awful waste of money when, say, neither Burscough station has them (or Bamber Bridge, if I recall).....

Why? When Bare lane has a lot more users than Bamber Br or Burscough jn.

 

[PR1Berske]

Why? When Bare lane has a lot more users than Bamber Br or Burscough jn.

If you want to know when a train is coming, it shouldn't be on the basis of a station getting an arbitrary number of passengers to justify installing a departure board or PIS.

 

[reb0118]

If you want to know when a train is coming, it shouldn't be on the basis of a station getting an arbitrary number of passengers to justify installing a departure board or PIS.

Very true, but it may help decide which station gets them first?

 

[PR1Berske]

Very true, but it may help decide which station gets them first?

I take your point.

 

[Dunc108]

Bare Lane is an incredibly busy & popular station catering not only for local residents but a large contingent of school children. I can only think theyre an asset on unstaffed stations where facilities are alot less & not everyone may have a mobile to access live departures..

 

[snail]

Any expansion of Carnforth is doomed to fail because the mighty/untouchable Virgin won't allow it.

Virgin weren't responsible for removing the main line platforms. If they were reinstated it would probably mean fewer stops for Lancaster/Oxenholme/Penrith because of the combined dwell times.

A lot of the comments on this thread seem to me to be founded in railway enthusiast dreams rather than the practicalities of moving people from A to B.

 

[lancastrian]

Virgin weren't responsible for removing the main line platforms. If they were reinstated it would probably mean fewer stops for Lancaster/Oxenholme/Penrith because of the combined dwell times.

A lot of the comments on this thread seem to me to be founded in railway enthusiast dreams rather than the practicalities of moving people from A to B.

You may well be right, that we are rail enthusiasts and we do dream of a better railway system and services. But that doesn't mean that we are always wrong.

You are quite right, Carnforth's Main Line platforms were taken out when the line was electrified, if my memory serves me right, sad to say. I agree that it might cause some delays, but the stupidity of have to travel through Carnforth if you are travelling from West Yorkshire to the Lake District on to Lancaster, get a train from there BACK through Carnforth and on to your destination. It must add at least 45 minutes to any such journey, if not longer.

There are loops just to the south of Carnforth, where services to Windermere could be held to allow Scottish Expresses to pass, and it could be possible for the new electric trains with their greater acceleration to be able to call at the re-installed platforms at Carnforth with out major problems.

 

[edwin_m]

I can confirm there were definitely no main line platforms at Carnforth when I first visited in the mid-70s. According to Wikipedia they were closed in 1970 and cut back prior to electrification.