Morecambe - Lancaster

[Lankyline]

There used to be a reasonable amount of traffic to the power station & port, anyone any info if there are plans that would lead to an increase in freight traffic to these ?

 

[Mugby]

Is the third line at Morecambe station ever used for anything?

The one on the left, facing the buffers.

 

[Dunc108]

Is the third line at Morecambe station ever used for anything?

The one on the left, facing the buffers.

If you mean the run around loop that was used for Nuclear Flask locos running around on trips to/from Heysham, alot of these seem to be top & tailed recently so im not sure its been used in a while, still its handy for potential stabling or visiting specials if they wish to make use of it...

 

[Buttsy]

A variety of options were looked at in Option
BL1 in terms of how to create a practical hourly
service in the peaks between Heysham and
Lancaster. The business cases were weak
because the only station is in the wrong place
for easy access by commuters, the line is slow
and the method of operation is time consuming.
Realistically such a service would need
a higher linespeed, and a simplified method of
working at Morecambe, in order to justify the
assumption that the service could be operated
in the marginal time of existing units and crews,
and in order to attract passengers from their
cars there would need to be new stations in
appropriate places. These factors mean the
scheme not viable.

I hope they looked at building the stations in the style of Beauly and Conon Bridge, as I would expect that these style short platforms would suffice.

 

[Dunc108]

I must admit, it‘s been a good fifteen years since I ‘ve travelled on the Lancaster - Morecambe section. Is the current service well used between them?

Yes the Morecambe Branch is very busy these days as I use it regularly; particularly the 10.34 Morecambe - Leeds which leaves Morecambe almost full, you do get long distance travellers changing at Lancaster aswell.

The peak hour returns from Lancaster are also well loaded with school children to Bare Lane.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes the Morecambe Branch is very busy these days as I use it regularly; particularly the 10.34 Morecambe - Leeds which leaves Morecambe almost full, you do get long distance travellers changing at Lancaster aswell.

The peak hour returns from Lancaster are also well loaded with school children to Bare Lane.

That's good to know. It's also good to see that contrary to the views of some, a local railway service can compete with a fairly frequent bus.

 

[Dunc108]

That's good to know. It's also good to see that contrary to the views of some, a local railway service can compete with a fairly frequent bus.

Yes, Morecambe - Lancaster buses might be more frequent but the train gets there quicker!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Morecambe is an even shorter branch than Windermere. Are there any services from Morecambe or Heysham to places like Preston, Liverpool, Manchester or Carlisle, or do they all go to Leeds or Bradford?

Heysham was the destination of the 'Belfast Boat Express' from Manchester Victoria, the last steam hauled 'titled' train on BR in the North West. This evolved into a morning commuter working in the 1970s between Morecambe & Manchester Victoria after Heysham Harbour station closed due to the 'troubles' in Northern Ireland. in the 1990s FNW introduced a roughly 2-hourly service between Morecambe & Liverpool Lime Street which was whittled down to a morning through train to Preston after a few years. It was useful for Morecambe residents wanting to travel to destinations beyond Lancaster without having to change. I still think some direct services would be useful especially as the Branch is busy these days and its not just local traffic, maybe they could extend some Hazel Grove - Preston's to Morecambe? Sure, its not the Airport but its the next best thing and would provide connections in that respect, aswell as giving Morecambe a service to Manchester. Certainly at the moment, apart from Leeds/Lancaster services theres a very early morning TPE train to Windermere and a morning train from Maryport and im sure one back to Barrow at teatime.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Yes, Morecambe - Lancaster buses might be more frequent but the train gets there quicker!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Heysham was the destination of the 'Belfast Boat Express' from Manchester Victoria, the last steam hauled 'titled' train on BR in the North West. This evolved into a morning commuter working in the 1970s between Morecambe & Manchester Victoria after Heysham Harbour station closed due to the 'troubles' in Northern Ireland. in the 1990s FNW introduced a roughly 2-hourly service between Morecambe & Liverpool Lime Street which was whittled down to a morning through train to Preston after a few years. It was useful for Morecambe residents wanting to travel to destinations beyond Lancaster without having to change. I still think some direct services would be useful especially as the Branch is busy these days and its not just local traffic, maybe they could extend some Hazel Grove - Preston's to Morecambe? Sure, its not the Airport but its the next best thing and would provide connections in that respect, aswell as giving Morecambe a service to Manchester. Certainly at the moment, apart from Leeds/Lancaster services theres a very early morning TPE train to Windermere and a morning train from Maryport and im sure one back to Barrow at teatime.

My morning journey to Lancaster by connection from Preston was sometimes by a nearly empty DMU on a Colne to Morecambe service (when the B'ham to Edinburgh train was late). I think it left Preston at 8.44. I didn't notice many people get on at Lancaster.
PS I remember when 0-4-4 tanks were on the NW Morecambe service. Also the large passenger engines that took excursions to Morecambe - including Britannias on direct Glasgow to Morecambe trains.

 

[Dunc108]

My morning journey to Lancaster by connection from Preston was sometimes by a nearly empty DMU on a Colne to Morecambe service (when the B'ham to Edinburgh train was late). I think it left Preston at 8.44. I didn't notice many people get on at Lancaster.
PS I remember when 0-4-4 tanks were on the NW Morecambe service. Also the large passenger engines that took excursions to Morecambe - including Britannias on direct Glasgow to Morecambe trains.

There was a Clitheroe - Morecambe at one point i can swear under FNW or NWRR, likewise it set off quite early, possibly a positioning move. The Maryport - Morecambe leaves Maryport at 6am according to the latest Northern Cumbrian Coast timetable, its something of an oddity, but again probably a positioning move but at the same time providing an early train down the coast for those wanting long distance connections at Lancaster, or for those working at Sellafield or Barrow.

 

[Darren R]

My morning journey to Lancaster by connection from Preston was sometimes by a nearly empty DMU on a Colne to Morecambe service (when the B'ham to Edinburgh train was late). I think it left Preston at 8.44. I didn't notice many people get on at Lancaster.

As Dunc108 says, there was an early mornning train from Clitheroe to Morecambe (SX). This began running when regular passenger services re-started to Clitheroe in May 1994, and ran for many years (until the last timetable recast in 2007-ish.) I always assumed it was some sort of stock-positioning thing: it must have run ECS to Clitheroe from Preston or Blackpool.

There was also, at the same time this appeared, a through train from Morecambe to Colne, departing about 1700. Can't find any trains in the opposite direction though.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just come across a copy of the British Rail 1981-1982 master timetable book in my railway archives. Table 109 has two footnote Saturday only services:-

Manchester Victoria dep. 1033
Morecambe arr. 1208

Morecambe dep. 1315
Manchster Victoria arr. 1441.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Although I don't think it'd be sensible (or easy) to put platforms back on the mainline, I wonder if it'd be possible to put in a new west to north chord here where the Leeds line crosses the mainline, allowing electric TPE services to call at Carnforth, go round the loop and back onto the mainline. It would only have to be single track.

As you can see there's a convenient disused trackbed there (although it originally connected to the Barrow line rather than the Leeds line).

Conflicting moves puts me off the idea... Northbound yes it would be brilliant, and relatively cheap you would hope.... (although i am not convinced it would be eg Todmorden)

South bound do a bit of track slewing and put in a loop :P Simples.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is it not better, operationally speaking, not to regard Carnforth as a stopping place on the West Coast Main Line, to obviate any associated problems that may occur, as Lancaster is a far more useful stop. In other words, let the status quo prevail.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I don't think you would stop the long distance London-Scotland trains there. But it would be quite useful to have Windermere trains stopping. Although having said that there are very few of them running South of Oxenholme at present anyway - not enough by themselves to be worth building anything for. There used to be a lot more.

I guess what I'd really like to see is all Windermere branch trains running from Preston, some ability for them to stop at Carnforth put in, and a couple of new stations between there and Preston added (and yes I do realize that probably wouldn't work without as a minimum some passing loops in places).

There are at present heavy commuter flows between Lancaster and Preston - and the level of road traffic suggests to me substantial flows from Carnforth too - both of which are poorly served by rail at present. Lancaster-Carnforth has only the hourly Barrow trains plus the occasional Leeds train. Lancaster-Preston has loads of trains but almost all of them are long distance ones not intended for commuters, and the combined schedule is quite erratic.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Lancaster-Carnforth has only the hourly Barrow trains plus the occasional Leeds train. Lancaster-Preston has loads of trains but almost all of them are long distance ones not intended for commuters, and the combined schedule is quite erratic.

Shall I play Devils Advocate here on the subject of public transport between Lancaster and Carnforth, which to be fair, has numerous bus stops between those two settlements. Four bus services spring to mind:-

5......Overton-Lancaster-Morecambe-Carnforth..via connecting 12 service
51....Lancaster-Carnforth
55....Lancaster-Carnforth
555..Lancaster-Carnforth

If you look at these service departure times from Lancaster, you will find that these services do actually run between each other at different times of the hour.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Shall I play Devils Advocate here on the subject of public transport between Lancaster and Carnforth, which to be fair, has numerous bus stops between those two settlements. Four bus services spring to mind:-

5......Overton-Lancaster-Morecambe-Carnforth
15....Lancaster-Carnforth
55....Lancaster-Carnforth
555..Lancaster-Carnforth

If you look at these service departure times from Lancaster, you will find that these services do actually run between each other at different times of the hour.

Oh go on then. As Devil's Oppenent I submit that:

• 5 doesn't go to Lancaster
• I think you mean 51 not 15

The Stagecoach timetables are showing half-hourly on the 55/555, with a journey time of 20 minutes. I've not travelled on those buses but based on driving/cycling along that road, 20 minutes sounds very optimistic to me given the level of congestion around Skerton and over the river Lune bridges, even allowing for the bits with bus lanes. The 51 doesn't really figure from Lancaster (it takes a roundabout route and gets overtaken by the 555 that leaves 10 mins later).

I just checked the rail timetable and am quite surprised that the train from Lancaster to Carnforth takes 10-12 minutes. Given it's such a fast line and Lancaster-Oxenholme (3 times the distance) is only 13-15 minutes, I'm not sure what's slowing it down. I know the Pendolinos and Voyagers can go faster but surely not to account for that speed difference? I would have thought the train ought to be able to wipe the bus out on timings on that route, but it appears not on the current timetable.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Oh go on then. As Devil's Opponent I submit that:

• 5 doesn't go to Lancaster
• I think you mean 51 not 15

Early Friday morning "Devil's Advocates" Senior Moment Syndrome once again has afflicted my transposition of the numbers 1 and 5.... (Posting now suitably corrected on that point). Addendum connection note now added to my posting on service 5.

 

[Darren R]

I just checked the rail timetable and am quite surprised that the train from Lancaster to Carnforth takes 10-12 minutes. Given it's such a fast line and Lancaster-Oxenholme (3 times the distance) is only 13-15 minutes, I'm not sure what's slowing it down. I know the Pendolinos and Voyagers can go faster but surely not to account for that speed difference? I would have thought the train ought to be able to wipe the bus out on timings on that route, but it appears not on the current timetable.

I can't find any that take up to 12 minutes to do Lancaster - Carnforth: most seem to take 8 or 9 minutes - not unreasonable start-to-stop times for just over 6 miles, especially considering the curve going into Carnforth.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I can't find any that take up to 12 minutes to do Lancaster - Carnforth: most seem to take 8 or 9 minutes - not unreasonable start-to-stop times for just over 6 miles, especially considering the curve going into Carnforth.

I double checked and it looks like I checked too small a subset of the timetable. Overall you're right that there are quite a few trains that take 8 minutes from Lancaster, with the northbound typical range being 8 to 10 minutes. The 12 minute train from Lancaster is the 17.48 to Barrow. Coming back times are often slower, which may be because of allowance for crossing the northbound main line at Carnforth? There are several 12 minutes and a few 13 minutes (eg. 17:12, 18:29 from Carnforth) The 15:34 from Carnforth is advertised for 14 minutes!

 

[driver9000]

The Stagecoach timetables are showing half-hourly on the 55/555, with a journey time of 20 minutes. I've not travelled on those buses but based on driving/cycling along that road, 20 minutes sounds very optimistic to me given the level of congestion around Skerton and over the river Lune bridges, even allowing for the bits with bus lanes. The 51 doesn't really figure from Lancaster (it takes a roundabout route and gets overtaken by the 555 that leaves 10 mins later).

As a former driver of these services and occasional passenger, I know 20 minutes for Lancaster-Carnforth is very optimistic and generally the 55 and 555 buses run late. Congestion in Carnforth can be just as bad as Lancaster sometimes! The timings have been the same for as long as I can remember and have always been a challenge to maintain. There are no bus lanes on the route except for Parliament Street and a short gate at Skerton Triangle for buses to return to the A6. The 51 is probably the most reliable service of the group because of its circuitous rural route meaning it avoids most of the traffic. Stagecoach really need to retime the service to improve its reliability and they had the perfect chance to do so not too long ago when they recast the timetable altering the frequencies and departure times but sadly they chose to ignore the long standing problem of timekeeping on the service.

 

[bluenoxid]

Would Leeds - Morecambe be better diverted towards Barrow.

 

[Eagle]

Do you mean Leeds–Barrow or Morecambe–Barrow?

 

[Welshman]

Would Leeds - Morecambe be better diverted towards Barrow.

There are historical reasons for the Leeds/Bradford-Morecambe flow.

Back in the day a lot of mill-owners used to live in the more rarefied Morecambe area and commute into the woollen centre of Bradford, hence the "residential" or "club train" which used to run from Morecambe to Bradford Forster Square in the morning, and return in the evening. Also, many folks from Bradford used to holiday in Morecambe. Not for nothing was Morecambe known as "Bradford-by-the-Sea"

Now that these social links have been lost, there is perhaps not such a great Bradford- Morecambe flow, and I imagine a direct link to Barrow could be more useful.

 

[yorksrob]

There are historical reasons for the Leeds/Bradford-Morecambe flow.

Back in the day a lot of mill-owners used to live in the more rarefied Morecambe area and commute into the woollen centre of Bradford, hence the "residential" or "club train" which used to run from Morecambe to Bradford Forster Square in the morning, and return in the evening. Also, many folks from Bradford used to holiday in Morecambe. Not for nothing was Morecambe known as "Bradford-by-the-Sea"

Now that these social links have been lost, there is perhaps not such a great Bradford- Morecambe flow, and I imagine a direct link to Barrow could be more useful.

I think such a link would still have to take in Lancaster to be useful, therefore having the service go to Barrow would require quite a long doubling back along the WCML.

 

[edwin_m]

I think such a link would still have to take in Lancaster to be useful, therefore having the service go to Barrow would require quite a long doubling back along the WCML.

The WCML platforms at Carnforth could help here - you could have Leeds-Barrow connecting with WCML stopping trains.

However, while the Leeds services might divert if it reduces operating costs, I think there would still be a lot more people travelling between the Barrow line and stations to the south than between that line and Leeds, so there would still need to be a frequent service from Barrow to Lancaster and beyond.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The WCML platforms at Carnforth could help here - you could have Leeds-Barrow connecting with WCML stopping trains.

The matter of the WCML platforms at Carnforth has been a long running saga over numerous threads on RailUK over the last few years.

 

[Dunc108]

There are historical reasons for the Leeds/Bradford-Morecambe flow.

Back in the day a lot of mill-owners used to live in the more rarefied Morecambe area and commute into the woollen centre of Bradford, hence the "residential" or "club train" which used to run from Morecambe to Bradford Forster Square in the morning, and return in the evening. Also, many folks from Bradford used to holiday in Morecambe. Not for nothing was Morecambe known as "Bradford-by-the-Sea"

Now that these social links have been lost, there is perhaps not such a great Bradford- Morecambe flow, and I imagine a direct link to Barrow could be more useful.

And the majority of Holidaymakers & Businessmen probably came in via the direct line, via Lancaster Green Ayre, rather than via Carnforth in those days, certainly the Bradford Forster Square - Morecambe 'Residential' did this. There was also heavy freight between Heysham Harbour & Yorkshire Yards - and probably beyond.. in fact even after passenger services ceased in 1966 the line via Green Ayre stayed open until 1967 until alternate paths could be found for remaining freight.

Lancaster Green Ayre would have been a busy station almost upto closure, with electric services, steam expresses to Morecambe & Leeds, Freight from/to Heysham, & various light engine & empty stock workings not to mention local trip freight from Ladies Walk Sidings near the station..

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can I ask which services would have used the short Furness and Midland Joint Railway line that had three stations at Melling, Arkholme and Borwick.

 

[Dunc108]

Can I ask which services would have used the short Furness and Midland Joint Railway line that had three stations at Melling, Arkholme and Borwick.

These would have been served by Carnforth - Leeds through coaches that combined with a Morecambe via Lancaster Green Ayre portion at Wennington Junction to form one train to Leeds, this splitting/combining at Wennington lasted until closure of the Green Ayre direct line in 1966.

 

[Bevan Price]

Can I ask which services would have used the short Furness and Midland Joint Railway line that had three stations at Melling, Arkholme and Borwick.

As an example of services over these lines, these are the departures in the summer 1956 timetable:

05:55 Heysham - Leeds (first stop Hellifield; boat train)
06:50 Morecambe (Promendade) - Leeds
07:40 Morecambe - Bradford & Leeds
07:52 Carnforth / 08:05 Lancaster Green Ayre - Leeds
09:23 (SO) Morecambe - Leeds (first stop Keighley)
09:33 Morecambe - Leeds
09:10 (SO) Barrow - 10:30 (daily) Carnforth - Leeds
10:46 (SO) Morecambe - Bradford & Leeds (non-stop Lancaster to Hellifield)
10:53 Morecambe - Leeds
11:30 (SO) Morecambe - Sheffield (first stop Skipton, then Keighley, Normanton, Rotherham Masborough & Sheffield)
12:15 Carnforth / 12:25 Morecambe - Leeds
11;05 (SO) Windermere - 12:45 Carnforth - Leeds
(presumably reversed / loco change in loop south of Carnforth station.)
13:50 (SO) Morecambe - Nottingham (first stop Keighley, then Royston, Cudworth, Swinton, Parkgate, Chesterfield & Nottingham)
14:16 (SO) Morecambe - Leeds
14:25 (SO) Morecambe - Bradford
14:43 Carnforth / 14:46 Morecambe - Leeds
16:20 Morecambe - Bradford & Leeds
16:50 Carnforth - Leeds
19:00 Carnforth / 18:55 Morecambe - Leeds
19:50 Morecambe - Leeds & Bradford
21:16 Morecambe - Skipton
22:50 (SO) Morecambe - Skipton

Equivalent trains ran towards Morecambe & Carnforth. With the exception of the current single service avoiding Lancaster, journey times from Morecambe to Wennington were mostly about 10 minutes faster in 1956 than in 2013.