Morecambe Electrification Bid

[snail]

A friend pointed this out to me today:

http://www.lancasterguardian.co.uk/news/business/bid_to_electrify_railway_line_1_3799536

A COUNCIL working group could be set up to help push for the re-electrification of the railway between Lancaster and Morecambe.

At last week’s full Lancaster City Council meeting, Heysham South city councillor Richard Rollins asked council leader Coun Eileen Blamire whether the authority was trying to get the stretch of track, which is currently used by diesel trains, included in the North West Railway Electrification Scheme.

There is evidence of sloppy journalism later in the piece though:

After the meeting, David Bousfield, chairman of the Lancaster and Morecambe Rail Users Group, said it supported re-electrification of the line, which was previously electrified from 1908 until 1966.

The current line through Bare Lane has never been electrified, it was the former line from Lancaster Green Ayre.

 

[HSTEd]

The current line through Bare Lane has never been electrified, it was the former line from Lancaster Green Ayre.

It might be in terms of "We had electric trains to lancaster and we want them again" rather than any other specific stretch of track and theyve just misinterpreted what was said.

 

[Eng274]

If they do electrify this route, what economically viable stock could be used to run the (Leeds-)Lancaster-Morecambe services?

They are usually worked by 142, 150, 153 or 156 - 1 or 2 car DMUs. Given the minimum EMU length is 3 car, it would probably only cover its daily operating costs with a reduction in service frequency. Unless, of course, some form of new 'electro-pacer' lightweight 2 car EMUs are built, but even then the initial outlay of the electrification would take decades to pay back.

Would it not be a pointless task if the Heysham branch wasn't also electrified? I struggle to think of a stretch of track in the UK that would be MORE financially unjustifiable to electrify than Morecambe - Heysham, since it sees two trains a day tops. Unless rail freight makes a resurgence at Heysham Port, but lack of a spur bypassing Morecambe station restricts the chance of this ever happening.

Its a great idea, and I wish this campaign the best of luck. But with so many other key infrastructure projects jostling for funding, the cost-benefit ratio doesn't look too attractive. One of the plus-points going for it is that it's a fairly slow line (~40mph max) so a fairly cheap/basic spec OHL system would suffice.

 

[4SRKT]

If Lancaster > Morecambe were electrified, Leeds > Morecambe trains would just terminate at Lancaster. In the days when there was a decent service between Hellifield and Carnforth only about half the trains went through to Morecambe anyway, with the [loco-hauled] remainder terminating at Lancaster.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The current line through Bare Lane has never been electrified, it was the former line from Lancaster Green Ayre.

I am old enough to remember passing through Scale Hall en route to Morecambe on these services from Lancaster Green Ayre.

 

[Lampshade]

If they do electrify this route, what economically viable stock could be used to run the (Leeds-)Lancaster-Morecambe services?

Chop it at Lancaster and use an EMU shuttle between there and Heysham/Morecambe?

 

[4SRKT]

I always fancied the idea of the Leeds > Lancaster trains going through to Windermere instead of Morecambe, providing a destination from West Yorkshire that people might actually want to go to!

 

[Lampshade]

I always fancied the idea of the Leeds > Lancaster trains going through to Windermere instead of Morecambe, providing a destination from West Yorkshire that people might actually want to go to!

A 144 bouncing up the WCML to Windermere, what a sight to behold hock:

 

[4SRKT]

A 144 bouncing up the WCML to Windermere, what a sight to behold hock:

Diverting services to Windermere might finally be a good way of getting Northern to put 158s on the route. After all I ride regularly to work on a 158 on the 07:43 Leeds > Huddersfield local, while pacers are being put through their paces on the Morecambes.

 

[Gathursty]

This is a stupid idea, and for that reason, I'm out!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Diverting services to Windermere might finally be a good way of getting Northern to put 158s on the route. After all I ride regularly to work on a 158 on the 07:43 Leeds > Huddersfield local, while pacers are being put through their paces on the Morecambes.

What would the WCML path availability be to allow for the Leeds services to proceed to Windermere at the frequency suggested?

 

[Ploughman]

Where would the reverse point be?
Carnforth or Lancaster?

 

[driver9000]

Where would the reverse point be?
Carnforth or Lancaster?

Lancaster would be the logical reversal point. Reversing at Carnforth would have to be done in the sidings as the platforms aren't on the mainline.

I can't see any point in electrifying Lancaster-Morecambe, they would be better off looking at improving the service to make it a proper frequency. It certainly has potential and is quicker and cheaper than the bus. The council has far more pressing matters to attend to in Lancaster and Morecambe.

 

[4SRKT]

The reversal point would be Lancaster, as that is the main source/destination of current local traffic. Pathing wouldn't be a problem I don't suppose as there are only 4 trains a day at present to Morecambe, although this is a terrible service and an improvement would be desriable if the line is to remain open.

 

[Eng274]

The reversal point would be Lancaster, as that is the main source/destination of current local traffic. Pathing wouldn't be a problem I don't suppose as there are only 4 trains a day at present to Morecambe, although this is a terrible service and an improvement would be desriable if the line is to remain open.

really? I just checked NRE and it seems to have a sporadically timed 1tph service at this time of day.

There could be scope to develop this route further, as the traffic in and around lancaster is pretty bad. Plus it is better value, quicker than the bus as previously mentioned, plus the train runs close to lancaster city centre.

 

[4SRKT]

really? I just checked NRE and it seems to have a sporadically timed 1tph service at this time of day.

There could be scope to develop this route further, as the traffic in and around lancaster is pretty bad. Plus it is better value, quicker than the bus as previously mentioned, plus the train runs close to lancaster city centre.

Sorry, I meant 4 trains a day from Leeds to Morecambe.

 

[Nym]

Well this is going to sound contriversial but here we go...

If Lancaster - Morcombe and Oxenhome - Windermere where electrified, how about giving these stations a through service into Manchester?

(Or just Oxenholme - Windermere)

If both where done, the current Manchester - Lancaster - (Scotland / Lakes) paths could be reverted back to run either Windermere or Morcombe services on an hourly pattern from Lancaster, with possible join/splits in the peaks etc. Operated under either the NT banner, or the TPE banner. The Barrow services that will not be electrified as it is somtimes less than 1tph will then remain diesel and run on a standard ?hourly path into Manchester, in a slower path via Bolton, or Wigan & Bolton or Paitcroft.

Personally I wouldn't think it be too badder idea either for these to get joined onto the Blackpool North services, so the hourlys would look like, off Manc Airport

xx:00 via Bolton: Barrow In Furness & (Hellefeild / Leeds via Lancaster?)
xx:29 via Bolton: Blackpool North & Windermere or Morcombe
xx:xx Scotland via Paitcroft

Services wouldn't be that hard to justify a tacking on to the Blackpool Norths via Bolton I don't think, and would provide some nice extra capacity between Chorley, Bolton and Manchester.

 

[ole man]

There is no chance that Morecambe-Lancaster will ever be put forward for electrification by network rail,Dft, and no mention in the north west RUS.
Although i would love to see more wire in the uk, this scheme is a total waste of time and effort by lancashire council when it could be spending the money on something that people really need.
There are more routes in the uk that need electrification.
Sandbach-Northwich-WCML
Crewe- Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton
Stoke- Derby
These are just three routes than would benefit more people and MORE importantly make money.

 

[snail]

Leeds-Morecambe is 4 trains per day, Lancaster-Morecambe is more frequent. The erratic frequency is because of having to find slow paths on the WCML.

I don't see much point in this proposal unless there were direct trains to Morecambe from Manchester, which isn't going to happen. It's something like 5 miles, taking less than 10 minutes so fuel costs are fairly insignificant compared to Northern's operation as a whole.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

Leeds-Morecambe is 4 trains per day, Lancaster-Morecambe is more frequent. The erratic frequency is because of having to find slow paths on the WCML.

It's not so much the paths on the WCML per se that is the problem, it's the fact a train can't be signalled into to the bays whilst a northbound train is signalled from Preston into P3 at Lancaster and vice versa. The other alternative of putting it in P5 means on it's departure it has to cross both the Up and Down lines, and the same problem exists. A train can't leave P5 going Northbound whilst a train is signalled into P3 from the South. This is the main problem with increasing the frequency or having a clockface timetable.

There are proposals to remodel Lancaster to avoid this problem, some more radical than others (having only a single bi-di through line and a extra platform is the most adventurous one). At the very least I believe it's almost guarenteed that a cross over will be put in to allow trains from the south to access all through platforms.

As for the proposals, it does seem a little pointless when it's mostly a self contained service. If there were long distance services continuing under the wires I could maybe see it was worth it. That said, there is some justifcation for trying to get as much electrification done in an area whilst the gangs are together in the area. If they are doing the North West, it would be a lot cheaper to get it done now. I'm still not that convinved about it, but it's not "ludicrous" as some have put it.

 

[bluenoxid]

This is a stupid idea, and for that reason, I'm out!

This is actually a good idea. An EMU would help bring the end to end time down to 10 minutes, giving a possible 2TPH service with the Leeds services providing a welcome relief to services as they catch up for any delays and retaining the Heysham.

Both stations are well located for the places they serve and it would also provide a possible place to terminate possible EMU stopper enhancements between Crewe and Preston as well as extra EMU's serving Manchester in the peak. It is not an incredible expense. We are talking about the same area where a £130m bypass has just been approved.

signalling ia due to be done next year and it would provide an ideal test for NRs new high output train

Yes, the lines around Lancaster would need improving as stated but for just several miles of electrification, a diesel train can be released and service improved. I wonder how long it will be before the Marple area is also looked at for electrification? Imagine the number of Pacers released for that one.

 

[HSTEd]

Yes, the lines around Lancaster would need improving as stated but for just several miles of electrification, a diesel train can be released and service improved. I wonder how long it will be before the Marple area is also looked at for electrification? Imagine the number of Pacers released for that one.

One would hope that Marple gets electrified at the same time as the MML to permit trains to run through from London to Manchester and provide some additional trains, even if they arent as fast as Virgin ones.

 

[Buttsy]

If they do electrify this route, what economically viable stock could be used to run the (Leeds-)Lancaster-Morecambe services?

As Heysham has no real justification for electrifying (unless you can do something on the cheap along the lines of the tram-style system but use 25kV), it would seem that the best idea is stop the Leeds - Morecambe at Lancaster apart from the Heysham Port service.

 

[driver9000]

Given that journey is 11 minutes with one or two at 10 minutes (source National Rail) is saving 1 minute enough to justify electrification? The diesels can do the run in 10 minutes perfectly well and the service was once timed at 10 minutes. Wires would be a waste as the service is linked to Leeds and Cumbrian coast diagrams both of which need diesels.

I would rather they looked at promoting the service, increasing passenger number and making the frequency more regular first before looking at putting wires up. The bypass is much needed and in all the years they've dithered over it traffic just gets worse. Driving through Lancaster is a nightmare - it shouldn't take 20 minutes off peak to travel 1 mile.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would rather they looked at promoting the service, increasing passenger number and making the frequency more regular first before looking at putting wires up. The bypass is much needed and in all the years they've dithered over it traffic just gets worse. Driving through Lancaster is a nightmare - it shouldn't take 20 minutes off peak to travel 1 mile.

This is a very valid point that you have made. The whole area needs a complete re-think with regards to all methods of transportation. As you say, driving through Lancaster is not a good experience and I speak only as a visitor to the area by car, when we travel the scenic route there through the Trough of Bowland. Normally, we use the train for direct journeys to Lancaster from our home region.

 

[Greenback]

Sorry, but I think there are higher priorities for electrification than Morecambe to Lancaster.

 

[HSTEd]

It might be a good place to test the construction price associated with using simple trolley wire with 25kV in a non depot setting as its slow and to be quite honest, if anything goes wrong its not a serious matter.

As a testbed you can defray many of the installation costs.

 

[Holly]

It might be a good place to test the construction price associated with using simple trolley wire with 25kV in a non depot setting as its slow and to be quite honest, if anything goes wrong its not a serious matter. As a testbed you can defray many of the installation costs.

Good point.
If low power, moderate speed, low cost, lightweight 25kVAC overhead is an option for minor lines then a good place to try it out is needed. On such lines freight (if any) would be diesel hauled while passenger trains are electric.

Main line heavy electric trains could use such lines as an alternate route subject to severe power and speed limits.

The Middlewich branch would be another good place to experiment.

 

[snail]

It might be a good place to test the construction price associated with using simple trolley wire with 25kV in a non depot setting as its slow and to be quite honest, if anything goes wrong its not a serious matter.

It's not a very practical branch for that kind of thing. Over half the journey to Morecambe from Lancaster is on the WCML, it's less than 2 miles from Bare junction to Morecambe with no interchange station at the point the tracks diverge. Something like the Windermere branch would be far more suitable as it's 8 miles of relatively simple branch with Oxenholme station at the junction end.

It would be a little ironic though, as the Green Ayre branch to Morecambe was not only one of the first electric railways, it served as a testing ground for various types of kit in its later years before closure.

 

[Lampshade]

Would the Lake District National Park Authority agree to wiring the Windermere branch though? They don't even like garden fences being out of character.