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So we could also try and create employment as part of regeneration projects involving rail then? Nowhere can be a single sector place anymore but we can use rail to serve plenty of them.
For Morecambe having some tourist attractions (along with deals for students from Lancaster to travel by train) along with maybe placing employment in Lancaster to create flows both ways so Lancaster, Morecambe and Heysham can act as one economic unit together linked by rail. Employment in Lancaster, Recreation in Morecambe and Freight/Travel in Heysham.
You're massively underestimating the sheer numbers of people you'd need employed in the area just to make something like this viable.
Media City in Salford has almost 10,000 people working there - the population of Morecambe is only 30,000.
And Media City draws people from Greater Manchester, Merseyside and beyond to work there - with a wide range of employable people. Morecambe isn't ever going to be comparable.
I'm not sure what other freight you think will go through Heysham that doesn't already ? Heysham's sole ferry route is to the Isle of Man - again, that's not a huge flow.
I think that's a vast overestimation of how many Uni students take their cars to University. It's maybe 5-10% of all students and this changes if it's a City Centre University. While Lancaster is a dedicated Campus not many will have cars there due to dedicated subsidised transport to Lancaster. Advertising dedicated days out from the University would provide trade.
And I think you're massively overestimating how many students Lancaster has - it's about 13,000 undergrads and 4,000 post grads.
Even if *half* of those went for a day out in Morecambe, you're only talking 8,000 people in a year - which on a 40 week year (because University students aren't there 52 weeks a year) is 200 people a week.
But you've got have people to sell to at the end of the day, and there just isn't a big market in the Lancashire area. Why would companies who need to trade widely locate themselves in Morecambe rather than Preston or Carlisle?
There is only 1 freight flow that will go by rail to Heysham - Nuclear fuel. It simply won't be worth the while of any other commercial flow given the need to runround at Morecambe and the length this limits trains to.
As mentioned, I went to York 10 years ago which is a campus but with the majority of student housing in the city centre, and I had multiple first degrees of connection to a car. But I think you are seriously overestimating the number of students who are going to go to the beach. The number of students who are going to go to Morecambe for a day at the beach is probably smaller than the number who have access to a car. And all of this is dependent on the weather - Lancashire being not exactly famed for a Mediterranean climate.
If you want to boost usage of the Morecambe branch you need to build some houses and have good connections at Lancaster into Manchester and London trains. A half-hourly battery EMU would do that pretty neatly.
The Morecambe Branch is already quite well utilised, Bare Lane is used by a considerable number of school children in the week and local people travelling into Lancaster and beyond.
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So many on here think we should be a Country just to feed everything to London.
We should be positioning rail as a key way to regenerate the entire country and not just to feed London.
I wonder what many on here would have said about any proposals in the Docklands of London in the 1960's?
We see where it has gone due to developers with a vision and funding. We can see what can be done and while it's unlikely anything would be to that scale it should be proof that with a plan and some capital and area can be regenerated into something desirable.
If you want to boost usage of the Morecambe branch you need to build some houses and have good connections at Lancaster into Manchester and London trains. A half-hourly battery EMU would do that pretty neatly.
You're broadly correct, but Morecambe's way too far for London to be of use. It's pushing it a bit for Manchester - it's 50 miles which is as far north from Manchester as Stafford is to the south.
Whilst London does get commuting 50 miles out - due to house prices - Manchester has nothing like the same distance for commuting.
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The Morecambe Branch is already quite well utilised, Bare Lane is used by a considerable number of school children in the week and local people travelling into Lancaster and beyond.
Usage figures pre-Covid for 2018/19 were Morecambe ~ 200k, Bare Lane ~100k.
Compare it to Clacton (taking that one, because it also has deprived areas such as Jaywick) and although Clacton has a bigger population of about 60k, it's station usage is about 800k.
You're broadly correct, but Morecambe's way too far for London to be of use. It's pushing it a bit for Manchester - it's 50 miles which is as far north from Manchester as Stafford is to the south.
Whilst London does get commuting 50 miles out - due to house prices - Manchester has nothing like the same distance for commuting.
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But is it really ?
Usage figures pre-Covid for 2018/19 were Morecambe ~ 200k, Bare Lane ~100k.
Compare it to Clacton (taking that one, because it also has deprived areas such as Jaywick) and although Clacton has a bigger population of about 60k, it's station usage is about 800k.
Morecambe doesn't have Clackton's frequent NSE style service.
Given the comparatively less frequent service that would probably require a change for many destinations, the Morecambe lines 300k isn't bad against Clacton's 800k.
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The Winter Gardens Restoration is coming along quite nicely a quarter of a million has already been spent on repairs to the roof. It's also received more funding from the Theatres Trust
Usage figures pre-Covid for 2018/19 were Morecambe ~ 200k, Bare Lane ~100k.
Compare it to Clacton (taking that one, because it also has deprived areas such as Jaywick) and although Clacton has a bigger population of about 60k, its station usage is about 800k.
Clacton would get more passengers for a couple of reasons. One that it's closer to London, and for most people rail is the only mode they will consider for going to London. Another that it's closer to London, so you get people daytripping to the beach there from, er, London.
In summary, rail usage is higher near London than 200 miles away from it. Who would have thunk it?
Who's talking about a massively uplifted service? The current timetable is horrible: sometimes hourly, sometimes twice hourly, but the gaps between trains are far from even. It may just about fulfil the needs of local passengers but as it stands is absolutely useless as an offering for anyone travelling further. At minimum it needs to become as close as possible to an all-day half-hourly service, if necessary by ditching the Heysham service completely and curtailing the Bentham line trains at Lancaster.
As mentioned upthread there used to be a regular service to/from Liverpool. In fact this lasted until December 2008 when introduction of the full Pendolino timetable restricted the number of 75mph DMU paths north of Preston. Not surprisingly the Cumbria service got priority and the Morecambe through service was axed. A question to consider now that both Liverpool and Manchester have electrified routes to Preston is whether an all electric service to Morecambe with (some) through workings from further south would generate additional traffic. It might even allow some WCML services to omit Lancaster with the Morecambe trains providing a connection at Preston (or Wigan).
I've made this point before - but it's worth restating, the current Eden Project in Cornwall with all the tourist trade that was already going to Cornwall only gets about 650,000 visitors a year
I don't share your pessimism about the Eden Project Morecambe. Given its relative proximity to large urban areas, as compared with the Cornwall site, I would think it would easily attract more than 650,000 annual visitors, indeed the projections suggest a million plus. Of course only a minority would arrive by train but given that most would be day-trippers it would be important to provide sufficient capacity at the times when those visitors would be travelling: a 4-car EMU could be just the ticket.
How long a walk will it be from Morcambe station to the Eden Project site? If no more than 5 mins, there could be potential for a park and ride service.
Speculating wildly, the best place for this given road and rail layouts is probably junction 33 of the M6 (which would be a Lancaster South Parkway for Lancaster University station). That of course is a big cost and there would be issues around line capacity unless (crayons set to maximum) we have a three platform station with a central loop line to enable trains stopping to be overtaken. I can't see any other location where this would work unless the park and ride is north of Lancaster, but given the major car traffic will be from Manchester and Liverpool, south of the city would seem more logical. I'm sure it will simply be too expensive!
Clacton would get more passengers for a couple of reasons. One that it's closer to London, and for most people rail is the only mode they will consider for going to London. Another that it's closer to London, so you get people daytripping to the beach there from, er, London.
In summary, rail usage is higher near London than 200 miles away from it. Who would have thunk it?
Clactons catchment is comparatively local then rather like what New Brighton is to Liverpool. Neither places you'd travel across the country for.
But then you have a place like Cleethorpes that whilst it has some attractions isn't in the same league as Blackpool or Scarborough but still has the luxury of a through train to Manchester (when it runs anyway ) and there's talk on social media of a possible through train to London with a newly refurbished 4th platform?
What magical powers does Cleethorpes possess to gain such expansion and that's without any world class attractions beyond the usual?
It's the terminus of routes that serve other fairly significant places like Grimsby, Scunthorpe and Lincoln (and Brigg ). Morecambe isn't, purely owing to geography
It's the terminus of routes that serve other fairly significant places like Grimsby, Scunthorpe and Lincoln (and Brigg ). Morecambe isn't, purely owing to geography
I'm not sure I'd call Grimsby a significant place these days plenty of post war industrial decline and it's importance much reduced as a rail centre after the closure of the East Lincs main line in 1970.
Scunthorpe is an industrial town not a tourist centre, You'd only go to those places if you had to or lived locally, I don't think they'd be on my bucket list for a visit anytime soon.
As mentioned upthread there used to be a regular service to/from Liverpool. In fact this lasted until December 2008 when introduction of the full Pendolino timetable restricted the number of 75mph DMU paths north of Preston. Not surprisingly the Cumbria service got priority and the Morecambe through service was axed. A question to consider now that both Liverpool and Manchester have electrified routes to Preston is whether an all electric service to Morecambe with (some) through workings from further south would generate additional traffic. It might even allow some WCML services to omit Lancaster with the Morecambe trains providing a connection at Preston (or Wigan).
No, no and a million times no. Lancaster is a key connectional node and all* WCML trains should continue to stop there. The city itself isn't massive, but it has a significant "railheading" hinterland, with significant loads boarding trains to all destinations.
* I know a 400m HS2 train can't, but that assumes that ever happens...
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Actually, people do travel across the country to Clacton from places like the Home Counties - it's actually the nearest reasonable seaside resort to Milton Keynes, for instance. However that travel is pretty much universally by car due to poor rail connections.
So I'd say it has a fairly big catchment in population terms, even if a lot of it is from London itself and immediate surrounds.
It certainly has a larger catchment than Morecambe at present - the only North West seaside resort people go a long way to is Blackpool, but that's pretty unique in its "sort of Vegas ish but poorer" "brand".
But then you have a place like Cleethorpes that whilst it has some attractions isn't in the same league as Blackpool or Scarborough but still has the luxury of a through train to Manchester (when it runs anyway ) and there's talk on social media of a possible through train to London with a newly refurbished 4th platform?
What magical powers does Cleethorpes possess to gain such expansion and that's without any world class attractions beyond the usual?
I suspect that almost nobody travels from Manchester to Cleethorpes for a bucket and spade holiday (and that almost everyone who does does it on a coach tour and is probably aged over about 60).
To me it's just one of those "strings of regional services attached together" a bit like Liverpool-Norwich, which exists for intermediate journeys with almost nobody doing the whole run, and those who are are more likely to be going for a city break in Manchester than a bucket and spade in Cleethorpes.
I also suspect any proposed London service would be a traffic source, not a traffic sink, i.e. people who live in Cleethorpes and surrounds going to London, much less so vice versa.
Morecambe is in a similar position. If you want to go to the beach for a day out, you go to West Kirby or Southport. Though the Eden Project could change that a bit I suppose. I'd concentrate on a quality clockface shuttle service over the classic North West "hourly service from everywhere to everywhere", unless there's a specific need to get a unit out of the way somewhere.
No, no and a million times no. Lancaster is a key connectional node and all* WCML trains should continue to stop there. The city itself isn't massive, but it has a significant "railheading" hinterland, with significant loads boarding trains to all destinations.
While I don't deny Lancaster's importance if Barrow/Morecambe/Windermere trains were all going to/from Preston(and points south) then the only connection to worry about is in/out of Bentham line trains, hardly a big market and from Bradford/Keighley to Preston is normally quicker via Blackburn or even Leeds/Manchester. WCML trains are somewhat flighted over Shap so speeding one of them up by omitting Lancaster wouldn't necessarily make much difference to most journeys to or via Lancaster. Not that I'm strongly advocating such a move, merely noting the possibility in concert with Morecambe trains running to Preston/Liverpool/Manchester.
While I don't deny Lancaster's importance if Barrow/Morecambe/Windermere trains were all going to/from Preston(and points south) then the only connection to worry about is in/out of Bentham line trains, hardly a big market and from Bradford/Keighley to Preston is normally quicker via Blackburn or even Leeds/Manchester. WCML trains are somewhat flighted over Shap so speeding one of them up by omitting Lancaster wouldn't necessarily make much difference to most journeys to or via Lancaster. Not that I'm strongly advocating such a move, merely noting the possibility in concert with Morecambe trains running to Preston/Liverpool/Manchester.
At which point, assuming they can be pathed, having Morecambe trains running to Preston helps fill the gap(s). There is potential there but as an amateur I can't say just how much. I hope that somewhere among the ranks of train planners this idea is at least under consideration.
At which point, assuming they can be pathed, having Morecambe trains running to Preston helps fill the gap(s). There is potential there but as an amateur I can't say just how much. I hope that somewhere among the ranks of train planners this idea is at least under consideration.
I just think it's a waste of money compared to the greater benefits of a clockface half hourly "The Bay Metro" service which I think would be quite well used with the coming of the Eden Project. And you'd save money by doing that, as you could use a small number of dedicated BEMUs instead of having to electrify to extend the Liverpool-Preston EMU service.
The classic Northern "hourly train from everywhere to everywhere" is not necessarily of the greatest benefit.
At which point, assuming they can be pathed, having Morecambe trains running to Preston helps fill the gap(s). There is potential there but as an amateur I can't say just how much. I hope that somewhere among the ranks of train planners this idea is at least under consideration.
I think an extension to Preston would only make sense if HS2 had dedicated tracks north of Preston and you built stations for Garstang and maybe Galgate as well.
Otherwise, the balance between connectivity and operability probably lends itself more to the Half-hourly metro with connections into Fast trains at Lancaster.
I just think it's a waste of money compared to the greater benefits of a clockface half hourly "The Bay Metro" service which I think would be quite well used with the coming of the Eden Project. And you'd save money by doing that, as you could use a small number of dedicated BEMUs instead of having to electrify to extend the Liverpool-Preston EMU service.
The classic Northern "hourly train from everywhere to everywhere" is not necessarily of the greatest benefit.
769s could do the job now. Once Westhoughton and Stalybridge electrifications are complete, and if they're still reliably functional(!), Northern's current fleet will (presumably) be going spare.
Based on what I've read following phase 2b.
Lancaster will have two HS2 trains an hour from London to Scotland that don't stop
1ph from London that is supposed to terminate.
1ph from Birmingham to Scotland that I think stops.
Based on that and no extra track, I don't think there's capacity to extend the Morecambe train south on the regular, with adding new stations, you'd need passing loops. For Galgate/uni, you have oubeck but there's nothing for Garstang.
So for now it would be better to just make the Morecambe to Lancaster train 2ph and not extend it south till capacity is found
769s could do the job now. Once Westhoughton and Stalybridge electrifications are complete, and if they're still reliably functional(!), Northern's current fleet will (presumably) be going spare.
So doesn't fit in 1. I doubt you could go half hourly without a dedicated platform, though maybe you could swap 1 and 2 over and use 1 for 2-car Furness Line local services? But just 8m to add!
So doesn't fit in 1. I doubt you could go half hourly without a dedicated platform, though maybe you could swap 1 and 2 over and use 1 for 2-car Furness Line local services?
Don't forget Lancaster used to have a platform 6, used by reversing Green Ayre electrics, it's still there but disused for years. It could give Lancaster some extra capacity for local services, if needed. It would probably need a complete rebuild though.
Don't forget Lancaster used to have a platform 6, used by reversing Green Ayre electrics, it's still there but disused for years. It could give Lancaster some extra capacity for local services, if needed. It would probably need a complete rebuild though.
Don't forget Lancaster used to have a platform 6, used by reversing Green Ayre electrics, it's still there but disused for years. It could give Lancaster some extra capacity for local services, if needed. It would probably need a complete rebuild though.
Used to. It would definitely need a full rebuild, and possibly a derogation for width (not impossible for a platform that would not see non-stop traffic), and there's a few signals and OLE stanchions along with drainage and cabling to move. Oh and the south end OTM siding would need to go as well.
You're broadly correct, but Morecambe's way too far for London to be of use. It's pushing it a bit for Manchester - it's 50 miles which is as far north from Manchester as Stafford is to the south.
Whilst London does get commuting 50 miles out - due to house prices - Manchester has nothing like the same distance for commuting.
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But is it really ?
Usage figures pre-Covid for 2018/19 were Morecambe ~ 200k, Bare Lane ~100k.
Compare it to Clacton (taking that one, because it also has deprived areas such as Jaywick) and although Clacton has a bigger population of about 60k, it's station usage is about 800k.
You would be surprised how far commuters go outside Manchester. Whilst doing ticket checks pre covid for TPE Lancaster and Oxenholme were well represented.
You would be surprised how far commuters go outside Manchester. Whilst doing ticket checks pre covid for TPE Lancaster and Oxenholme were well represented.
Oxenholme seems to be the limit for day returns to Manchester. Mildly annoying for the few times I go to Manchester (from Penrith), but there are options with splitting (or using advances).
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