More Up and Down Line Questions

[Andy873]

I was looking this morning at the OS town plans of Colne, Nelson, and Burnley (which just shows Rose grove station too) and noticed that all the platforms for all of these stations are labelled opposite to what has been written about, that is, the down platforms are labelled as Up and vice versa. The same applies to the loop line stations (Gt. Harwood & Padiham).

Next, I decided to look at an L&Y WTT from October 1885 more closely, all three stations on the loop line are listed in the Up direction which goes against the L&Y mileposts standard of measuring from Manchester Victoria and listing Victoria as in the Up direction, away, Down, and as I've mentioned before, the loop line mile posts were measured from the Rose Grove end (zero point at the junction there).

I then checked out Accrington on the OS 1890 map, but it only has the platform numbers listed, and by the time I get to Blackburn the platforms there are labelled correctly.

Could this be a throw back to ELR days?
Perhaps when the L&Y built the loop line they just carried on with the Up in the Colne direction?
Any thoughts, anyone?

 

[D Mylchreest]

Like most pre-group railways LYR trains went up towards milepost 0. This milepost was in the middle of the River Irwell (the border between Manchester and Salford) just outside Victoria Station.
As I'm not at all clear from your post which platforms are intended for travel to or from Manchester I can't comment further, sorry.

 

[Andy873]

Like most pre-group railways LYR trains went up towards milepost 0. This milepost was in the middle of the River Irwell (the border between Manchester and Salford) just outside Victoria Station.
As I'm not at all clear from your post which platforms are intended for travel to or from Manchester I can't comment further, sorry.

Thanks for that David, appreciated.

Well, I've dome some more digging and this is what I can state:

The stations at Great Harwood, Simonstone, Padiham, Rose Grove, Burnley Barracks, Burnley Central (Bank Top), Brierfield, Nelson & Colne all show the UP platforms for trains running to Colne and Skipton (from the OS 1890 town maps).

With regards to these stations, the L&Y 1885 & 1905 WTT's state the UP direction is as the 1890's maps show. An LMS passenger timetable from 1938 shows the same as the maps and the L&Y timetables.

My BR 1956 Goods WTT, 1962-1964 passenger WTT's don't mention the UP or Down direction.

The first mention of the UP and DOWN the way it's been written about is the special notice regarding the re-signalling of East Lancashire dated September 1973 which shows the directions the other way round.

The only conclusion I can come to is that the directions were changed sometime during the BR days and that all the authors who wrote about any of the above stations took their knowledge from that period and not earlier. This means that all the authors got it wrong (including me!), something I struggle with but that's the conclusion.

Regarding the 1890's town maps - These are extremely detailed maps, showing minute details such as lamp posts and drains in the streets. I know there are some mistakes on OS maps but I find it very hard to believe the people drawing these maps would get the platform labelling wrong.

To back up all of this, I re-read my own transcript of a fatal accident inquest from December 1880 on the death of a farmer crossing his occupation level crossing whilst returning home. The remains of the cart and horse were on the UP line and the farmer's body was in the four foot of the other line (DOWN). The train that hit them was travelling from Burnley to Blackburn, and to be hit as described in the inquest can only mean one thing - He and his horse and cart were just about on the edge of the DOWN line (nearest the farm) when the train hit. More so, they say the driver and guard had to move the smashed cart off the UP line to clear it. In short, UP line crossed first (nearest the main road), then the DOWN line (nearest the farm), and the train was travelling on the line nearest the farm which makes it the DOWN line at that time.

All of this might sound pedantic, but as I've said before, if we are going to write about the history of a railway line, let's get it right!

Are there any more examples out there where the UP and DOWN directions were at some point reversed?

 

[Rescars]

Are there any more examples out there where the UP and DOWN directions were at some point reversed?

We had a go at trying to find some examples in this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ups-and-downs.290255/

 

[D Mylchreest]

Thanks for that David, appreciated.

Well, I've dome some more digging and this is what I can state:

The stations at Great Harwood, Simonstone, Padiham, Rose Grove, Burnley Barracks, Burnley Central (Bank Top), Brierfield, Nelson & Colne all show the UP platforms for trains running to Colne and Skipton (from the OS 1890 town maps).

With regards to these stations, the L&Y 1885 & 1905 WTT's state the UP direction is as the 1890's maps show. An LMS passenger timetable from 1938 shows the same as the maps and the L&Y timetables.

My BR 1956 Goods WTT, 1962-1964 passenger WTT's don't mention the UP or Down direction.

The first mention of the UP and DOWN the way it's been written about is the special notice regarding the re-signalling of East Lancashire dated September 1973 which shows the directions the other way round.

The only conclusion I can come to is that the directions were changed sometime during the BR days and that all the authors who wrote about any of the above stations took their knowledge from that period and not earlier. This means that all the authors got it wrong (including me!), something I struggle with but that's the conclusion.

Regarding the 1890's town maps - These are extremely detailed maps, showing minute details such as lamp posts and drains in the streets. I know there are some mistakes on OS maps but I find it very hard to believe the people drawing these maps would get the platform labelling wrong.

To back up all of this, I re-read my own transcript of a fatal accident inquest from December 1880 on the death of a farmer crossing his occupation level crossing whilst returning home. The remains of the cart and horse were on the UP line and the farmer's body was in the four foot of the other line (DOWN). The train that hit them was travelling from Burnley to Blackburn, and to be hit as described in the inquest can only mean one thing - He and his horse and cart were just about on the edge of the DOWN line (nearest the farm) when the train hit. More so, they say the driver and guard had to move the smashed cart off the UP line to clear it. In short, UP line crossed first (nearest the main road), then the DOWN line (nearest the farm), and the train was travelling on the line nearest the farm which makes it the DOWN line at that time.

All of this might sound pedantic, but as I've said before, if we are going to write about the history of a railway line, let's get it right!

Are there any more examples out there where the UP and DOWN directions were at some point reversed?

As ever I can't get 'Quote' to work, sorry.
I really can't work out what's going on about the East Lancs Stations. It's possible that the East Lancs ran it's mileposts from its Bury HQ and the LYR, when it merged with the ELR, didn't change this practice. It's also possible that BR (NE Region?) changed the milepost sequence to match the Midland practice (ie service towards Skipton from the north and west were thought of as up to St Pancras). I honestly don't know, all very speculative.
What I am sure of is that the Liverpool to York expresses (or what passed for an express on the LYR) were up to Manchester (ie up to milepost 0) and then down to York. You can't get to Manchester from Liverpool by LYR lines anymore (I think) but the same applies to Southport and Wigan services.

 

[Springs Branch]

My BR 1956 Goods WTT, 1962-1964 passenger WTT's don't mention the UP or Down direction.

The first mention of the UP and DOWN the way it's been written about is the special notice regarding the re-signalling of East Lancashire dated September 1973 which shows the directions the other way round.

The only conclusion I can come to is that the directions were changed sometime during the BR days and that all the authors who wrote about any of the above stations took their knowledge from that period and not earlier. This means that all the authors got it wrong (including me!), something I struggle with but that's the conclusion.

I'm always glad of an excuse to browse through old Working Time Tables. I don't have any timetables from the era when the Padiham Loop was open, but I've looked into those covering the East Lancs line (Todmorden - Rose Grove - Accrington - Blackburn - Preston) from the 1960s and 70s.

BR WTTs were generally fastidious in labelling the Up and Down directions at the top of each page - at least in the LMR examples I'm familiar with. However, WTTs through the 1960s and into the 70s for this particular route did not indicate any Up or Down at all - which sort of suggests some "funny business" might have been going on along this line.

A glance through the Sectional Appendix issued in 1960 shows why - the Up & Down directions switched several times along the way back then. So, in the 1960 Sectional Appendix:

• Travelling from Todmorden Hall Royd Jn to Rose Grove Gannow Jn was DOWN.
• Colne to Gannow Jn to Accrington and on through Blackburn to Cherry Tree Jn was UP.
• Rose Grove West Jn to Padiham and onwards to Gt Harwood Junction was also shown as UP in this direction in 1960.
• Cherry Tree Jn to the Bamber Bridge / Lostock Hall area reverted to DOWN.
• The DOWN line then continued via Ormskirk all the way to Liverpool Exchange.

None of my WTTs for the East Lancs route up to and including the May 1973 issue show any UP or DOWN designations.
But - from 1974 WTTs onwards, the whole East Lancs, Colne & Copy Pit routes were consistently identified as UP westbound and DOWN eastbound.
Re-signalling of the route and transfer to Preston PSB in late 1973 would have been the ideal opportunity to tidy things up and eliminate these inconsistencies when the mechanical signal boxes were eliminated.

Admittedly, all this does not explain the discrepancy in the OP.

Are there any more examples out there where the UP and DOWN directions were at some point reversed?

Vaguely connected to this topic, Merseyrail directions were reversed on the Northern Line a short time (1978?) after the electric lines had been physically separated at Kirkby & Ormskirk.

• Historically, Preston - Ormskirk - Liverpool Exchange was the DOWN direction.
  Now it's DOWN from Preston to Ormskirk and UP from Ormskirk to Liverpool and on to Hunts Cross (where it matches the Up & Down on the Cheshire Lines route)
• Similarly, Wigan Wallgate - Kirkby - Liverpool Exchange was DOWN when it was a through route.
  Now it's DOWN from Wigan to Headbolt Lane, and UP from Headbolt Lane to Liverpool.

 

[Andy873]

I'm always glad of an excuse to browse through old Working Time Tables. I don't have any timetables from the era when the Padiham Loop was open, but I've looked into those covering the East Lancs line (Todmorden - Rose Grove - Accrington - Blackburn - Preston) from the 1960s and 70s.

@Springs Branch, . It's always interesting when you get an excuse to look at those old WTTs, I do it frequently.

• Historically, Preston - Ormskirk - Liverpool Exchange was the DOWN direction.
  Now it's DOWN from Preston to Ormskirk and UP from Ormskirk to Liverpool and on to Hunts Cross (where it matches the Up & Down on the Cheshire Lines route)
• Similarly, Wigan Wallgate - Kirkby - Liverpool Exchange was DOWN when it was a through route.
  Now it's DOWN from Wigan to Headbolt Lane, and UP from Headbolt Lane to Liverpool.

We can see over time that different railway companies covering the same area had different ideas, and as time went on a line becomes split into sections as we can see from the above quote, which mirrors what I have found.

As ever I can't get 'Quote' to work, sorry.
I really can't work out what's going on about the East Lancs Stations. It's possible that the East Lancs ran it's mileposts from its Bury HQ and the LYR, when it merged with the ELR, didn't change this practice. It's also possible that BR (NE Region?) changed the milepost sequence to match the Midland practice (ie service towards Skipton from the north and west were thought of as up to St Pancras). I honestly don't know, all very speculative.
What I am sure of is that the Liverpool to York expresses (or what passed for an express on the LYR) were up to Manchester (ie up to milepost 0) and then down to York. You can't get to Manchester from Liverpool by LYR lines anymore (I think) but the same applies to Southport and Wigan services.

To get a better understanding of what and where I'm talking about please have a look at these two town maps from the OS 1890 sheets from the NLS.

First, Great Harwood:

Georeferenced Maps viewer - Map images - National Library of Scotland

maps.nls.uk

And Padiham:

Georeferenced Maps viewer - Map images - National Library of Scotland

maps.nls.uk

Note - Harwood has two relief sidings, a smaller one near the goods yard, and a much larger one next to the carriage shed. Padiham has only one relief siding next to the goods yard.

Now add in the L&Y Appendix to the WTT from August 1884, it lists the loop line as the "Padiham Branch" which lists Great Harwood has one relief siding listed as "Up" yards 175, and one listed as "Down" yards 470. At Padiham, it lists the only relief siding as "Up" yards 280. Both "Up" sidings are on the same (south) line (as you look at the maps).

Finally, going back to the farmer who was killed crossing his level crossing, as described at the inquest, the farmer's cart (what was left of it) ended up blocking "the up line" as stated by an L&Y Superintendent who just happened to be on that train. The farmer had to cross the north side line first from the main road and was killed as he just about got onto the south side line, hence the cart was blocking the Up line.

None of this of course, the general public would have cared about, all they want to know is what time is my train to X and which platform.

I've encountered fierce resistance on this one from all sides, and I understand why, even I just thought the OS map makers had got it wrong, but when you add in the 1884 Appendix, and that fatal accident you can only come up with one explanation - That originally (at least on the loop line) life began with the Ups and Downs in reverse order.