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More praise for SWT from Barry Doe

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Goldfish62

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I see in "Rail" that Barry Doe is continuing his love-in with SWT. He has complied a league table of the "best" TOCs and of course SWT comes out top, scoring 9 or 10 in all his categories.

SWT certainly isn't the worst TOC, but what's so wonderful about it? I use it every day and my experience is filthy trains (and getting worse), invisible, silent guards and a general corporate jobsworth, non-customer service attitude coming from the management.
 
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radamfi

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I used to think he was God a long time ago but that changed when I realised he didn't know anything about buses and trains outside the UK and Ireland. So he isn't in a good place to decide what is good practice when he hasn't seen it!

His site is sponsored by Stagecoach.
 

thefab444

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SWT certainly isn't the worst TOC, but what's so wonderful about it? I use it every day and my experience is filthy trains (and getting worse), invisible, silent guards and a general corporate jobsworth, non-customer service attitude coming from the management.

Sounds like Southern and Southeastern! :lol:

Cutting wet cleaning of trains from monthly to yearly was a bad move, but I wouldn't describe the majority of the fleet as "filthy". Most of the rubbish is just stuff left behind by other passengers and could be solved with a few more cleaners at Waterloo.
 

Goldfish62

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Sounds like Southern and Southeastern! :lol:

Cutting wet cleaning of trains from monthly to yearly was a bad move, but I wouldn't describe the majority of the fleet as "filthy". Most of the rubbish is just stuff left behind by other passengers and could be solved with a few more cleaners at Waterloo.

The floors of the 455s and 458s, and toilets, are in a disgusting state.
 

Clip

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I used to think he was God a long time ago but that changed when I realised he didn't know anything about buses and trains outside the UK and Ireland. So he isn't in a good place to decide what is good practice when he hasn't seen it!

His site is sponsored by Stagecoach.

Its probably not. Its probably google ads which run on there and they just pick keywords and get the ad thats best suited to the page/words. No point advertising womens undies to a bunch of blokes who have obsessions with trains is it?



Well maybe in some cases ;)
 

junglejames

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I used to think he was God a long time ago but that changed when I realised he didn't know anything about buses and trains outside the UK and Ireland. So he isn't in a good place to decide what is good practice when he hasn't seen it!

His site is sponsored by Stagecoach.

So someone has spent their time studying the public transport of the UK only. Thats not a bad thing. Just because he has little interest in public transport outside of the UK.
He has never claimed to be an expert on European railways. So the problem? It would be different if he claimed to know about them, but then it turned out he didnt. but this isnt the case.

People very rarely know a lot about everything. He is no different to everybody else in the world in this respect.

As for not being able to know what good practice is. What? So if you dont know anything about European railways, its not possible to know what good practice is in the UK? Sorry, does not make sense.
After a few years of following the UK rail scene, it is possible to get a good idea of problems, and good things about it. You dont need to follow the European rail scene as well. If you travel around Europe you would get extra ideas, but you dont need to do this to realise what problems are in the UK.

Barry Doe has a very good understanding on the subject of fares and timetables for UK rail operations. That would be his specialist subject, in the eyes of Mastermind. When he writes about TOCs that he likes and dislikes, this is from his personal opinion. Some will agree, some will disagree. Europe does not need to come into it. Never has needed to, never will need to.

Now if he was to take charge of a TOC, then yes, travelling Europe to get an idea on how they do things would be an idea. But for what he does, and for what he knows, Europe isnt needed.
 

WestCoast

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Interesting and ill stand corrected. But you cant fault someone who has made his own website about the UK railways being sponsored by people who run parts of the network also can you?

No, but it could lead to a conflict of interest if criticism of one of the sponsors was reported on.

So someone has spent their time studying the public transport of the UK only. Thats not a bad thing. Just because he has little interest in public transport outside of the UK.
He has never claimed to be an expert on European railways. So the problem? It would be different if he claimed to know about them, but then it turned out he didnt. but this isnt the case.

I have often seen ideas touted around concerning improvements and innovations, which have often been in practice in other countries for many years. However, if Barry Doe chooses to focus on the UK Transport Scene, that's absolutely his choice.

What I will say is that I would get sick of looking at buses here very soon, they're awful in the main (except London and a few key areas!).

SWT certainly isn't the worst TOC, but what's so wonderful about it? I use it every day and my experience is filthy trains (and getting worse), invisible, silent guards and a general corporate jobsworth, non-customer service attitude coming from the management.

On the subject of cleanliness, you've not seen some of Northern's fleet, with almost 50% of respondents not satisfied in the latest Passenger Focus Survey, but as the old saying goes "you can't polish a turd". As for the toilets, I won't even go there (only 38% satisfied in the survey). Having said that, none of the regional operators score highly with the toilets, they are hard to keep clean if you don't have someone to do that job:lol:
 
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AlterEgo

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No, but it could lead to a conflict of interest if criticism of one of the sponsors was reported on.

Indeed. Barry Doe is supposed to be the ultimate "impartial" fares advisor/critic. His knowledge is pretty much second to none but there you go.
 

Clip

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No, but it could lead to a conflict of interest if criticism of one of the sponsors was reported on.

Im sure the sponsors of anyones website would want unbiased reporting/features which criticised them if they deserved it.
 

Greenback

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He has been very critical of both SWt and First at times. It would be interesting to see if the timings have any relationship with the sponsoring of his site!

I have been reading him for over twenty years, and I have never found him anyhting but objective. However, I was a bit surprised to see that he rates SWT station staff as 10/10. I would assume he is not basing this rating on gateline staff!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Im sure the sponsors of anyones website would want unbiased reporting/features which criticised them if they deserved it.

Most organisations do want feedback of where they are going wrong so that they can improve.
 

WestCoast

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Most organisations do want feedback of where they are going wrong so that they can improve.

They do, but would they rather that feedback was supplied directly to that organisation, rather than being placed in the public eye on a website that they sponsor?

I suppose it depends on what the "feedback" is, and the nature of the organisation.
 

MidnightFlyer

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Barry Doe is an excellent writer.

He used to do a catering review annually, but stopped a couple of years ago because most of it had got so bad.
 

Clip

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They do, but would they rather that feedback was supplied directly to that organisation, rather than being placed in the public eye on a website that they sponsor?

I suppose it depends on what the "feedback" is, and the nature of the organisation.

But look at car programmes - Car makers are forever giving them cars to faff around in even if they have slated a certain model in the past - they still want feedback in the public domain - even if it is criticism. As long as its constructive then they are happy to be faced with that.
 

Greenback

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I suppose it depends on what the "feedback" is.

Indeed it would. It appears form the articles that Mr Doe often raises issues with TOC's and NR before publication. This allows him to inform his readers of their respnses, or sometimes, the lack of any. It's possible that his relationship with some TOC's is bette rthan others, and this is likely if they are in contact frequently.

It's hard to prove objectivity, especially in such subjective matters as how someone rates interaction with staff. but having read his articles for such a long time, I have never seen any indication of bias - on the contrary, he will often refer to a great improvement or a decline in a particular TOC.
 

WestCoast

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But look at car programmes - Car makers are forever giving them cars to faff around in even if they have slated a certain model in the past - they still want feedback in the public domain - even if it is criticism. As long as its constructive then they are happy to be faced with that.

Yes, with the key word being constructive and helpful to them. Social networking sites can be dangerous territory for firms, if you look at Virgin Trains facebook for example, there are people slating them night and day. Most of it isn't constructive in the slightest.

Not directly related, but that can be especially true if you believe the old adage, "any publicity is good publicity", an example being a certain Irish airline that constantly spouts nonsense at the UK media to get their name in the press.
 

radamfi

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As for not being able to know what good practice is. What? So if you dont know anything about European railways, its not possible to know what good practice is in the UK? Sorry, does not make sense.

After a few years of following the UK rail scene, it is possible to get a good idea of problems, and good things about it. You dont need to follow the European rail scene as well. If you travel around Europe you would get extra ideas, but you dont need to do this to realise what problems are in the UK.

I admit I haven't read his column for some years but I don't remember him being particularly interested in having a Swiss-style interconnecting network and I'm sure I remember him obsessing about direct services as a typical Brit enthusiast would. I certainly didn't realise it was possible to have tight connections across a whole network before I branched out onto the continent. Without continental knowledge he is bound to have formed typically British attitudes on how things should be, as I used to.

I sense he, like me, is more interested in how everything in a transport network fits together, such as timetabling and fares, rather than the actual vehicles themselves. Given that it is widely publicised how good European trains are in this respect, it seems odd that he isn't at least curious. Of course it is his choice to study what he wants. As I said, I used to read everything he wrote, for both buses and trains, especially buses, and thought it made total sense. So it was very disappointing to me when I realised so much of it was blinkered.
 

thefab444

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I certainly didn't realise it was possible to have tight connections across a whole network before I branched out onto the continent. Without continental knowledge he is bound to have formed typically British attitudes on how things should be, as I used to.

Until there is a relaxation of the delay attribution and fines system, it's not going to be possible to have a truly connectional based railway.
 

radamfi

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Until there is a relaxation of the delay attribution and fines system, it's not going to be possible to have a truly connectional based railway.

Does Barry S Doe lobby for such a relaxation? British Rail didn't do it so I doubt it would make much difference. Indeed BR ruined station layouts to make connections more difficult.
 

radamfi

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Eh? Please expand on this, I'm fascinated...

Platforms were closed, meaning that there weren't enough platforms to allow trains to be there at the same time so that passengers could transfer between them.
 

the sniper

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However, I was a bit surprised to see that he rates SWT station staff as 10/10. I would assume he is not basing this rating on gateline staff!

It will be his opinion though of his experiences. I believe he lives in the Bournemouth area, so are the staff at Bournemouth station staff particularly good? If so that would probably give him a good impression of all SWT trains staff. If he doesn't come across any problems elsewhere on the SWT network, he's likely to just imagine that all stations are that good.

Even if most visitors don't find the Bournemouth staff that good, if Barry is anything like me, he'll know his local station staff well and will probably get on with them, especially as he's presumably a regular traveller. This wouldn't make him biased because he knows them, it'd just be his personal experience. :)
 

bb21

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It will be his opinion though of his experiences. I believe he lives in the Bournemouth area, so are the staff at Bournemouth station staff particularly good? If so that would probably give him a good impression of all SWT trains staff. If he doesn't come across any problems elsewhere on the SWT network, he's likely to just imagine that all stations are that good.

I would say that Bournemouth staff are one of the better ones amongst the SWT crew. They have always been more than helpful when needed and do not tend to make up their own rules (at least I have not experienced any), which is in stark comparison to places like Salisbury.
 

junglejames

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Indeed. Barry Doe is supposed to be the ultimate "impartial" fares advisor/critic. His knowledge is pretty much second to none but there you go.

He does give impartial fares advice.
What he says about SWT is his personal choice, and not actually advice.
Plus, to be fair, SWT do have to be up there with the best. The 158s/ 159s are very nice trains. The 444s, whilst i dont like them because of the seats, would be good units if the seats were changed. Also, if you look on this forum, a 444 style EMU is wanted for pretty much every service going in the UK. Wont be long before someone asks for them to replace Pendys.
Whenever i have used their suburban services, the trains have always been in a pleasant condition.
I dont think there is much that could be argued with. Customer service seems to be the biggest bugbear on here.
 

Greenback

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In terms of trains, I think SWT are pretty good. I haven't been on any trains that I would describe as dirty, either internally or externally, but my recent experience with them is also limited to Southampton and Bournemouth services. I haven't been overly impressed with Southampton staff, but the Bournemouth ones seem better.

It seems that a lot fo people have their favourite company, and for many different reasons. I think it's fair to accept that Barry Doe's ratings are reflective of what he sees and it's just a coincidence that those he rates highly also sponsor his website.
 

anthony263

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The staff at Bournemouth & Salisbury were really good , i do admit some staff were not too good at Southampton central however, part from 1 who i spend a few minutes chatting to.

I always seem to get freindly waves for the drivers of the class 158/159's
 

junglejames

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I admit I haven't read his column for some years but I don't remember him being particularly interested in having a Swiss-style interconnecting network and I'm sure I remember him obsessing about direct services as a typical Brit enthusiast would. I certainly didn't realise it was possible to have tight connections across a whole network before I branched out onto the continent. Without continental knowledge he is bound to have formed typically British attitudes on how things should be, as I used to.

He usually wants whatever is best for the passenger (unless of course it is unreasonable). So whilst i cant recall him mentioning a fully interconnecting network, I really cant see him being against it. He realises though, a lot of this is not plausible with the fragmented privatised railway we have, and his views on whether he agress with privatisation or not, is something he very rarely makes obvious in his writings. He leaves that to Wolmar!


I sense he, like me, is more interested in how everything in a transport network fits together, such as timetabling and fares, rather than the actual vehicles themselves. Given that it is widely publicised how good European trains are in this respect, it seems odd that he isn't at least curious. Of course it is his choice to study what he wants. As I said, I used to read everything he wrote, for both buses and trains, especially buses, and thought it made total sense. So it was very disappointing to me when I realised so much of it was blinkered.

Blinkered? What because his specialist subject does not extend to European Railways? Thats hardly fair.
He has a good idea of the good points and the bad points of the UK rail system. He doesnt need to know about European Railways to do this. He may/ may not suggest something that is in use elsewhere in Europe. What he knows on European railways makes no difference with this.
He may not think of something that is happening in Hungary or Poland or Turkey, which he may have known about if he had been there, but this hardly makes what he says bad, or blinkered.
His stuff still often makes sense. What he says is often well thought through, and Europe doesnt need to play a part in it.

You say he is blinkered because he doesnt know much about European railways. Where does this end? Surely you could call someone blinkered for not knowing about Indian Railways? Aussie Railways? Argentinian Railways? Are we saying that someone claiming to know about fares and timetables in any country must be blinkered if they dont know about railways all around the world? Afterall, its unfair just to limit it to European railways.

As for how good European Railways are in the timetabling front. Have you seen the comment made by some American Railway journalist on the most underrated and overrated rail systems? I hope so, otherwise could we perhaps call you blinkered???
If so, you would know that in his view, the most underrated rail system is that of the UK. Mainly because of our very good regular frequent trains, which people conveniently dont see. Which was the most underrated? The French. Why? Because get away from the TGV, and they are totally the opposite, yet people seem to just base the French system on the fast TGVs.

Now im not trying to claim that the UK system is the best in the world. But it goes to show, that actually, we are not languishing behind other European countries.
 
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