More Oyster woes caused by unexpected OSI

[Brucey]

Today I made a journey from West Ruislip to Barking, and then return again. Both avoiding Zone 1. Copious engineering works around London today, so the route was slightly convoluted, but still reasonable and within the maximum journey time.

Both journeys should cost £1.00 as I have a NR railcard loaded.

Here is a summary of what I did:

Starting balance £0.00
Top-up West Ruislip by £5.00
Enter at West Ruislip
Exit at Shepherd's Bush [LU] - Charge £1.00
Enter at Shepherd's Bush [NR]
Touch pink reader at Willesden Junction
Touch pink reader at Stratford
Touch out (on gateline) at Barking - Balance £4.00
Top-up Barking by £2.40 (to cover Monday morning's journey to work) - Balance £6.40

Approx. thirty minutes later
Touch-in (on standalone validator at manual wide gate) at Barking - Displayed "ENTER £6.40"
Touch pink reader at Blackhorse Road - Displayed "ENTER £4.15" rather than the usual "ENTER INTERCHANGE" - This was the first clue something was wrong
Touch pink reader at Highbury & Islington
Touch pink reader at Willesden Junction
Touched out at Shepherd's Bush [NR] - Balance £2.35
Obtained journey receipt (attached) from grumpy man at ticket window
Touched in at Shepherd's Bush [LU]
Touched out at West Ruislip - Balance £2.35
Photographed journey history on TVM (attached)

So, two issues:

1. It appears the journey got re-opened at Barking. This is not a continuation exit as the reader displayed Enter. Once at Blackhorse Road, the first journey had timed out so a new one was opened and the previous marked as uncompleted. There are no OSIs at Barking, but there were multiple rail replacement buses running, so emergency OSIs would have been put in place. This incomplete journey was charged at £3.25 (as on the TVM, not the £2.25 shown on the printed receipt).

2. The new journey from Blackhorse Road to West Ruislip was charged at £1.80, instead of £1.00. This is the correct fare for Blackhorse Road to Shepherd's Bush [NR] using Zone 1, i.e. the system had ignored my pink touches during this journey. The via. Zone 1 fare to West Ruislip is £2.00, so it appears the pink touches were taken into account at West Ruislip but the fare wasn't adjusted down.

It really annoys me that I've had to fork out extra money in order to get to work tomorrow due to the additional charges. To top it off, I got home and discovered the block of cheese I'd bought yesterday has gone mouldy (completely unrelated....)

Does anyone have any comments/suggestions/corrections before I contact the Oyster helpline tomorrow once the journey history has updated?

 

[island]

I don't think the journey was reopened at Barking but you appear to have timed out on the journey back. Max journey time from Barking to Blackhorse Road is 100 minutes on a Sunday and your journey on that segment appears to have run from 1343 to 1523, so I think you must have been some seconds over the maximum journey time there and the pink reader started a new journey.

I suggest telling the helpline that you went over the maximum journey time due to the engineering works and that your journey was West Ruislip to Barking and back.

I can't see how the system didn't figure out that you avoided zone 1 on the Blackhorse Road to Shepherd's Bush bit. Perhaps MikeWh will be along to help.

 

[Brucey]

I don't think the journey was reopened at Barking but you appear to have timed out on the journey back. Max journey time from Barking to Blackhorse Road is 100 minutes on a Sunday and your journey on that segment appears to have run from 1343 to 1523, so I think you must have been some seconds over the maximum journey time there and the pink reader started a new journey.

1523 was the time I touched out at Shepherd's Bush [NR]. Touch-in at Barking was at 1343, Blackhorse Road was some time between 1411 and 1415.

I'll post the online journey history tomorrow morning.

 

[MikeWh]

1. It appears the journey got re-opened at Barking. This is not a continuation exit as the reader displayed Enter. Once at Blackhorse Road, the first journey had timed out so a new one was opened and the previous marked as uncompleted. There are no OSIs at Barking, but there were multiple rail replacement buses running, so emergency OSIs would have been put in place. This incomplete journey was charged at £3.25 (as on the TVM, not the £2.25 shown on the printed receipt).

All correct. It's unfortunate that you didn't take a few minutes longer at Barking as the EOSI expires after 30 minutes.

2. The new journey from Blackhorse Road to West Ruislip was charged at £1.80, instead of £1.00. This is the correct fare for Blackhorse Road to Shepherd's Bush [NR] using Zone 1, i.e. the system had ignored my pink touches during this journey. The via. Zone 1 fare to West Ruislip is £2.00, so it appears the pink touches were taken into account at West Ruislip but the fare wasn't adjusted down.

The system won't adjust a fare downwards except in one very obscure situation involving exceeding MJT at an OSI and the gate not opening followed by entry the other side of the OSI (possibly after top up) then exit where the new overall journey was within MJT.

However, you appear to have discovered a bug in the logic of pink validators. The single fare finder describes exactly the journey you made by changing at Highbury & Islington and Willesden Junction. The instruction for using that route is that you must touch on the pink validator at Highbury & Islington. It does not mention the pink validator at Willesden Junction. I have a funny feeling that the second validator over-rides the first and thus you have found a case where touching a pink validator causes more to be deducted.

Does anyone have any comments/suggestions/corrections before I contact the Oyster helpline tomorrow once the journey history has updated?

I think you need to make a big thing of touching pink readers charging you more. Also, may I highlight your case on my site?

 

[Brucey]

However, you appear to have discovered a bug in the logic of pink validators. The single fare finder describes exactly the journey you made by changing at Highbury & Islington and Willesden Junction. The instruction for using that route is that you must touch on the pink validator at Highbury & Islington. It does not mention the pink validator at Willesden Junction. I have a funny feeling that the second validator over-rides the first and thus you have found a case where touching a pink validator causes more to be deducted.

I guess this makes sense under normal circumstances, where either you would take a through train or change for another on the same platform at Willesden Junction, thus never passing a pink validator (unless you go to the toilets on Platform 3). Today was different as westbound services to Stratford were departing from Platform 2, calling all stations to South Hampstead then Camden Road and all stations to Stratford. They obviously didn't think of this possibility that you may actually pass a pink validator during planned engineering works. :roll:

Also, may I highlight your case on my site?

Of course you can. I'll post the online history tomorrow, or whenever it gets updated. PM me if you need any further info.

I may actually wait a few days before contacting the helpline, just to see if anything gets adjusted automatically. Always interesting to learn how the system works...

 

[MikeWh]

I may actually wait a few days before contacting the helpline, just to see if anything gets adjusted automatically. Always interesting to learn how the system works...

You never know they might adjust it automatically. Although the fact you've got two issues (Barking and Willesden Junction) makes me believe that they won't get it right. Worth waiting to find out though as it might be in your favour.

 

[Brucey]

As promised, here is the full journey history:

14:10 - 15:51 Blackhorse Road to West Ruislip £1.80 £2.35
15:51 Touch out, West Ruislip +£1.45 £2.35
15:24 Touch in, Shepherd's Bush (Central line) £1.45 £0.90
15:23 Touch out, Shepherd's Bush [London Overground] +£1.45 £2.35
15:02 Touched pink card reader, Willesden Junction £0.00 £0.90
14:27 Touched pink card reader, Highbury & Islington £0.00 £0.90
14:10 Touch in, Blackhorse Road £3.25 £0.90
13:15 Topped up, +£2.40 £6.40
11:09 - ???? West Ruislip to [No touch-out] £3.25 £4.15
13:43 Touch in, Barking £2.25 £4.15
13:14 Touch out, Barking +£2.25 £4.00
12:57 Touched pink card reader, Stratford £0.00 £1.75
12:07 Touched pink card reader, Willesden Junction £0.00 £1.75
11:47 Touch in, Shepherd's Bush [London Overground] £2.25 £1.75
11:45 Touch out, Shepherd's Bush (Central line) +£2.25 £4.00
11:09 Touch in, West Ruislip £3.25 £1.75
11:04 Topped up, West Ruislip +£5.00 £5.00

Nothing there that I didn't expect to see.

 

[Brucey]

Shortly after posting this thread, I received a refund by contacting the helpline. There was no automatic refund for either overcharge.

I also submitted a FOI request regarding this, which you can see here: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/oyster_card_pink_validators

Interestingly they say

5) I can advise that using the pink Oyster card reader at Willesden
Junction will invalidate, or prevail over, a previous touch at a pink
reader at Highbury and Islington and generally lead to the charging of a
Zone 1-inclusive fare for the journeys in question. A touch at a pink
reader at Willesden Junction will not invalidate a previous touch at a
pink reader at Gospel Oak.


6) We endeavour to make the Oyster card scheme as fair as possible but
there are limitations in the steps we can take to refund customers
automatically when they make unexpected validations which are ambiguous to
the Oyster system and inconsistent with the interchanges actually made.
The pink readers at Willesden Junction are located at points associated
with interchanges between the Bakerloo/Euston-Watford Junction Lines and
the North London/West London Lines and a validation at these locations is
associated with travel via zone 1 for the journeys concerned. Oyster card
holders making the journeys described via Highbury & Islington and
Willesden Junction are unlikely to pass the pink readers at Willesden
Junction.

On the day in question, services from Stratford were arriving on the Watford DC/Bakerloo Line platforms, therefore causing people to walk past the pink readers. Additionally, someone using the toilets at Willesden Junction will also walk past these validators.

 

[Be3G]

That's most interesting – thanks for looking in to this. Seems there's always something new to learn with PAYG on Oyster. I had always assumed that I should touch every pink validator I ever walk past; now, it seems, we should only touch pink validators that the single fare finder specifically tells us to touch!

 

[MikeWh]

Well indeed. Except that TfL say you should always touch one if you pass it because it might reduce your fare. I have to say that I'm slightly skeptical about Willesden not over-riding Gospel Oak, to the point where I'm going to try and re-create that scenario just to be sure.

 

[Brucey]

I actually had a chance to do this (Gospel Oak then Willesden) yesterday, but hadn't read TfL's response at that point as I was returning from abroad where I refused to check my emails. Just my luck. I assume it will be charged at the lower fare, as the table given in their response indicates one journey was made touching at Willesden Junction and Gospel Oak which was charged at non-zone 1 rate.

I'm also sceptical about a touch at Highbury & Islington and Willesden Junction being considered as default via. Zone 1. The only way I see you could do this journey via. Zone 1 without touching in/out at intermediate stations would involve changing at somewhere like Oxford Circus onto the Bakerloo Line. But that would mean having to climb the escalator from the Victoria Line at H&I to touch the pink reader, then return back into the underground. The logical route for this journey would be to take the Overground.

 

[MikeWh]

OK. The way I understand it is that pink validators and routeing OSIs are grouped together largely by what zone they are in, but splitting those in zones 1 and 2 into sub groups. I think that it is possible that the system only keeps track of one via point. Willesden Junction is classed as a boundary zone 2/3 point which puts it into a different group from Highbury & Islington, Gospel Oak etc which are all zone 2. This is all pretty much theory at the moment, but if you can check your journey history for yesterday I'd be interested to know what it says.

This ties in with people changing between NLL (between Stratford and Highbury) onto Northern line north branches via either the Camdens or Kentish Towns being charged via zone 1 because the system can't differentiate between those two and Highbury where you'd take the Vic to Euston. LTW forced them to make automatic adjustments after the event where people did this.

 

[Brucey]

This is all pretty much theory at the moment, but if you can check your journey history for yesterday I'd be interested to know what it says.

I actually made the journey yesterday via. Zone 1. Had I seen the email, I would have used the avoiding route. I may be able to do this journey again in about three or four weeks time, to test out your theory.

 

[edwin_m]

I'm still wondering what an OSI is. Could it be the Oyster Spanish Inquisition? Nobody expects that...

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm still wondering what an OSI is. Could it be the Oyster Spanish Inquisition? Nobody expects that...

Reallly? OSI stands for Out of Station Interchange.

 

[bb21]

I'm still wondering what an OSI is. Could it be the Oyster Spanish Inquisition? Nobody expects that...

See this.

 

[edwin_m]

Reallly? OSI stands for Out of Station Interchange.

Thanks.

Spanish Inquisition would have been a lot more interesting though.