More GTR Gatwick Express OBS nonsense.

[Joe Paxton]

You wouldn't have a Thameslink-only ticket to get to Victoria as Thameslink doesn't run to Victoria.

I think I said London Terminals in the first line...

Yes, but you said you were heading for Victoria...

... if say I held a "Thameslink Only" Brighton - London terminals ticket (with the intention of changing at ECR for VIC) ...

If you accept the Thameslink-only restriction, then a Thameslink-only ticket to London Terminals cannot get you to London Victoria (only London Bridge, Blackfriars and City Thameslink).

If you don't accept the Thameslink-only restriction, well, then it's up to you...

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Ok, lets try an different scenario:

I arrive at Brighton ticket office at ask for a single/return to London, what ticket can I expect to be sold?

A "Southern Only" ticket?
A "Thameslink Only" ticket?
An "Any Permitted" ticket?

Let's say I'm sold a "Southern Only" ticket. (Remember I did not state any particular London terminus)

I board a Southern train and it fails at Gatwick Airport and taken out of service. In order to not delay my journey further, I board a GX train and arrive at Victoria (ableit a little late). I am pulled over at Platform 13 (or whatever the GX platform is) and told my ticket is invalid as it says "Southern Only"

Considering GTR is one company with 4 branded services, where do I stand?

 

[Joe Paxton]

Ok, lets try an different scenario:

I arrive at Brighton ticket office at ask for a single/return to London, what ticket can I expect to be sold?

A "Southern Only" ticket?
A "Thameslink Only" ticket?
An "Any Permitted" ticket?

Let's say I'm sold a "Southern Only" ticket. (Remember I did not state any particular London terminus)

You would not be sold a Southern-only ticket as these do not exist.

You would be sold an Any Permitted ticket.

The ticket clerk might offer you alternatives, e.g. a Super Off-Peak Day Return if you did not wish to return in the evening peak, or an outboundary Day Travelcard, or indeed work out that you actually really want a period return or alternatively that you really do only want a single. They would only sell a Thameslink-only ticket to a Thameslink destination.

 

[AlterEgo]

Ok, lets try an different scenario:

I arrive at Brighton ticket office at ask for a single/return to London, what ticket can I expect to be sold?

In reality, I have no idea.

In theory, in this situation a clerk should ask questions about your appetite for speed/flexibility/price to ascertain the best value ticket - if this does not happen then the clerk isn't doing their job properly.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

You would not be sold a Southern-only ticket as these do not exist.

Thanks for the clarification

 

[Antman]

So, just to get this right - GTR no longer has any in-house RPIs? What about on the Great Northern route? Or is this just referring to Southern services/routes?

If they only have OBS on Great Northern, then god help the customers as some of the RPIs couldn't understand the evening peak restrictions.

 

[Hadders]

Still got RPIs on Great Northern, I had a ticket inspection just last Saturday.

 

[jon0844]

Still got RPIs on Great Northern, I had a ticket inspection just last Saturday.

Yes, and they often work in groups - which, to be honest, is the only effective way.

Sure, working alone covers more trains, but anyone remotely threatening is left well alone (and justifiably so) so not as effective as doing as a team.

If Southern is going to end up with some RPIs regraded and put on trains, their effectiveness is going to be massively reduced.

 

[greatkingrat]

Yes, and they often work in groups - which, to be honest, is the only effective way.

Sure, working alone covers more trains, but anyone remotely threatening is left well alone (and justifiably so) so not as effective as doing as a team.

If Southern is going to end up with some RPIs regraded and put on trains, their effectiveness is going to be massively reduced.

It depends how you define effective. From the TOCs point of view it might be better to have ten RPIs on ten different trains giving penalty fares to the low hanging fruit (people who forgot to touch in their Oyster etc) rather than doing one big block which might catch the more hardcore offenders.

 

[electrostar375]

The problem is that a lot of passengers have become frustrated with all the hassle for the past year that a lot of staff get conflict when doing ticket checks from frustrated passengers who refuse to show tickets because of all the strikes.

 

[swt class 450]

At the moment only all of the Gatwick Express and Southern RPIs have been converted to OBS. However if i remember correctly i believe that Great Northern and Thameslink are planning to do exactly the same at some point this year (although they will be known as Passenger Hosts instead of On Board Supervisors). Although the Great Northern and Thameslink plans have gone very quiet so im not sure what is happening now.

 

[Hadders]

I thought Passenger Hosts were the replacement role for ticket office staff (which thankfully got kicked into the long grass following passenger feedback).

Great Northern has been proper DOO for 30 years so there's no way GTR will want to increase on-board staff. Introducing OBS would give the unions the opportunity so demand Southern style levels on coverage which is simply not going to happen.

 

[Starmill]

I have had a Great Northern RPI check my ticket fairly recently.

 

[swt class 450]

This is the information on the Great Northern and Thameslink websites regarding their plans.

http://www.thameslinkrailway.com/about-us/improvements/onboard-staff/

Although it says that these plans will come in to place from Summer 2016 but as far as i know they still havent yet.

Improving the role of on board staff

New on-train role would deliver customer service improvements

The number of passengers using Thameslink and Great Northern has soared in the past five years and demand is set to grow on our busy network. To keep up with this increasing demand and the rising expectations of our customers we are modernising how we do things at our stations, on board our trains and behind the scenes.

Our aim is to make things easier for you, our passengers. As part of our plans to modernise our services, we are talking to unions and staff about adjusting the role of Thameslink and Great Northern on-train revenue protection staff to place a still greater emphasis on providing customer service for passengers on board our trains.

The Thameslink and Great Northern revenue protection staff already provide help and assistance, but their primary role is checking tickets to target fare evaders and protect revenue from ticket sales. Every staff member would receive training to help to expand the customer service element of their role to provide our passengers with a better experience when travelling with us.

The widened role would include:

Providing journey information (such as connecting onward journeys or current service updates)
Providing assurance and assistance to passengers
Ticket upgrades and renewals
Revenue protection, including the issuing of penalty fares
Chief Operating Officer Dyan Crowther says: “Passenger satisfaction is not only driven by the punctuality of our services and quality of our trains – all of which we are investing to improve – but also the visibility and helpfulness of our staff on board. We are incredibly fortunate to have a fantastic group of dedicated revenue protection staff and we want to help them enhance the level of customer service they offer.”

Further to our discussions with our unions and staff, the change would be introduced this summer, 2016.

I’ve heard that conductors have been striking on Southern over their transfer to a similar customer-centric on-board role? Will this affect Thameslink and Great Northern services?

There are also proposals to alter the role of conductors on board Southern services to provide the same position as those on Thameslink and Great Northern. In response, the RMT union has a mandate for strike action.

Thameslink and Great Northern does not have conductors on board its services and would therefore not be directly affected by any industrial action. However, in the event of strike action, many passengers displaced from Southern services would be using Thameslink trains south of London. These trains would be extremely busy and there could also be delays. Please keep abreast by checking live travel information on this website.

It seems like basically Great Northern and Thameslink are just planning to change the roll of RPIs to keep them on the same train for the entire journey and have them make announcements etc. I certainly dont think they will be on every train. I think it will be a very different arrangement to the Gatwick Express and Southern OBS.

 

[tsr]

Thameslink now have Passenger Hosts vice Revenue Protection staff, and have done since last year. It was brought in very quietly, and I am reliably advised that the role of the revenue staff hasn't changed much, just with a few extra items of training on things like wheelchair ramps. I don't believe they are diagrammed to specific trains. It's not quite that it was introduced in name only, but almost.

All Southern revenue staff and a number of their conductors have been converted to the OBS role, which is rather more of a difference for the Southern revenue staff, as it involves compulsory diagrammed trains and little station-based work.

It should be noted that unlike what some GTR press releases (and their Twitter account) say, not all conductors were transferred to OBS roles. However, all former Southern revenue staff are OBSs.

Station staff at certain locations may still become Station Hosts, which is the proposed role for roving staff within stations. This is currently being trialled at a handful of stations. I am glad it is being trialled in a fairly controlled manner and I have to say that, with the right security systems in place, I think it could be much better for stations than the OBS/Passenger Host roles on trains.

 

[Antman]

Thameslink now have Passenger Hosts vice Revenue Protection staff, and have done since last year. It was brought in very quietly, and I am reliably advised that the role of the revenue staff hasn't changed much, just with a few extra items of training on things like wheelchair ramps.

And what is the point in that?

On the rare occasion one turns up (none so far this year) all they do is check tickets.

If you actually needed a wheelchair ramp you would obviously need the station staff to assist you as there would be no chance a host would be on the train.

Mind you, at least when they are on the train they are visible, unlike those on Southern.

 

[yorkie]

Considering GTR is one company with 4 branded services, where do I stand?

See www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2736554#post2736554

....They can't redefine train company; it's a term with an inalienable meaning, but that won't stop some of them trying.

The Ticketing Settlement Agreement (TSA) allows an operator to set operator specific fares; there is no provision within the TSA to allow an operator to set brand specific fares. The definition of operator within the TSA is very clear; Govia Thameslink Railway is an operator.

Govia Thameslink Railway are obliged to comply with the TSA, whether they - or the DfT - want to or not. Failure to comply is a breach of the legal framework, and the franchise agreement.....

Fares routed "not Gat Exp" or "Southern only" are non-TSA compliant and only exist for legacy reasons as mentioned earlier, but cannot be restricted in a manner that is not consistent with the TSA as that would not be lawful.

Fares routed "TL Only" have to be honoured by the new company in the manner described in the TSA until their inevitable withdrawal.

They won't always admit it, and some staff may puff and threaten you with all sorts of bad things, but I'm yet to hear of anyone who has actually lost a battle with them. But battles are few and far between because the company knows the law is on our side. Consumer law applies to train tickets, remember (despite some people previously denying this!)

 

[Joe Paxton]

...
They won't always admit it, and some staff may puff and threaten you with all sorts of bad things, but I'm yet to hear of anyone who has actually lost a battle with them. But battles are few and far between because the company knows the law is on our side. Consumer law applies to train tickets, remember (despite some people previously denying this!)

That does perhaps best illustrate the matter... those who wish to use a brand-restricted ticket in a way GTR would rather you didn't should be prepared to go into battle...!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fares routed "not Gat Exp" or "Southern only" are non-TSA compliant and only exist for legacy reasons as mentioned earlier, but cannot be restricted in a manner that is not consistent with the TSA as that would not be lawful.

I agree they should not be doing this, but would their answer not be something like "well, we'll create a set of new Super Off Peak fares at the Southern-only rate and create a restriction code that just lists all the GatEx departures from Victoria as barred"?

 

[yorkie]

I agree they should not be doing this, but would their answer not be something like "well, we'll create a set of new Super Off Peak fares at the Southern-only rate and create a restriction code that just lists all the GatEx departures from Victoria as barred"?

Not that insane suggestion again.

Yeah, like that's really going to be feasible! I'd actually love it if they did; the press would shred them to pieces over that story. Imagine the size of the restriction code text!

Meanwhile, back to reality...

 

[MikeWh]

Not that insane suggestion again.

Yeah, like that's really going to be feasible! I'd actually love it if they did; the press would shred them to pieces over that story. Imagine the size of the restriction code text!

Meanwhile, back to reality...

At the risk of being controversial, I don't think it is insane. The restriction code text would be a lot shorter than some of the really convoluted ones. It would legally convey the intention that the DfT want and I don't think the press would be interested at all.

The insanity is that GatExes convey 95% fresh air when some of their Southern branded trains are full and standing. Not to mention the fact that the trains aren't express at all. In fact, enforcing more rigidly the increased price of travelling on these trains may interest some sections of the press, but not because of a long-winded restriction text.

 

[yorkie]

At the risk of being controversial, I don't think it is insane. The restriction code text would be a lot shorter than some of the really convoluted ones. It would legally convey the intention that the DfT want and I don't think the press would be interested at all.

In the 'up' direction, for weekdays only (good luck with weekends ) it would be something like:

NOT VALID on departures to Victoria between the following times:
0001-0111
0113-0204
0412-0504
0506-0536
0538-0554
0602-0629
0633-0651
0653-0706
etc etc

And you'd have to have easements for the 0835 (and any other same-time departures) via Redhill

The insanity is that GatExes convey 95% fresh air when some of their Southern branded trains are full and standing. Not to mention the fact that the trains aren't express at all.

Yes, it is insane.

 

[MikeWh]

In the 'up' direction, for weekdays only (good luck with weekends ) it would be something like:

NOT VALID on departures to Victoria between the following times:
0001-0111
0113-0204
0412-0504
0506-0536
0538-0554
0602-0629
0633-0651
0653-0706
etc etc

And you'd have to have easements for the 0835 (and any other same-time departures) via Redhill.

Are there any restrictions on the wording that can be used in the restriction text? Would it be permissable to simply say:

Not valid on trains between London Victoria and Gatwick Airport that are scheduled to run non-stop between the two stations.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Are there any restrictions on the wording that can be used in the restriction text? Would it be permissable to simply say:

Not valid on trains between London Victoria and Gatwick Airport that are scheduled to run non-stop between the two stations.

Even simpler would be "not valid on any scheduled services listed/branded as Gatwick Express or Thameslink". However, there would be issues with any Anytime Fares as these don't have restriction codes. Perhaps they could become an extra Off-Peak fare with an 8A style restriction code for simplicity. Personally I think I'd prefer to see the restriction clearly noted on the ticket rather than forcing GTR/DfT to hide it in restriction codes, but I guess you can't please everyone.

 

[IrishDave]

Not that insane suggestion again.

Yeah, like that's really going to be feasible! I'd actually love it if they did; the press would shred them to pieces over that story. Imagine the size of the restriction code text!

How does that suggestion differ from the current situation on, for example, tickets between London Paddington and Didcot? The restriction text for an Off-Peak Single from Paddington to Didcot details a very long list of departures from Paddington which the ticket is not valid on:

Not valid on the following
departures from London
Paddington (or Reading in
brackets):

1600 (1627) Bristol TM (BRI)
1606__(1633)__Penzance (PNZ)
1615__(1641)__Swansea (SWA)
1630__(1657)__Taunton (TAU)
1636__(1704)__Exeter St D(EXD)
1645__(1711)__Swansea (SWA)
1649__(1720)__Oxford (OXF)
1700__(1726)__Bristol TM (BRI)
1703__(1732)__Penzance (PNZ)
1715 (1741)__Swansea (SWA)
1722 (1750) Hereford (HFD)
1730 (1756) Taunton (TAU)
1733 (1804) Paignton (PGN)
1742 Cheltenham (CNM)
1745__(1811)__Swansea (SWA)
1749 (1822) Worcester (WOS)
1800 (1827) Bristol TM (BRI)
1803 (1830) Penzance (PNZ)
1815 (1841) Swansea (SWA)
1822 (1850) Hereford (HFD)
1830 (1856) Weston SM (WSM)
1835 (1902) Exeter (EXD) FX
1835 (1902) Plymouth(PLY) FO
1845 (1911) Swansea (SWA)
1847 (1918) Cheltenham (CNM)
1850 (1922) Oxford (OXF)
1900 (1927) Bristol TM (BRI)
1903 (1933) Plymouth(PLY)_FX
1903 (1933) Penzance(PNZ) FO
1915 (1941) Swansea (SWA)

I would assume -- although I would appreciate confirmation -- that this is due to the fact that First Great Western used to just be an InterCity operator, and the local services were operated by Thames Trains. As a result, the restriction could simply have read "not valid on First Great Western services due to depart Paddington between 1600 and 1915".

Why can a similar model not be used for "Not Gatwick Express" tickets? I appreciate that Anytime tickets would cause a problem, but for Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak fares this seems like a viable alternative to the current situation.

 

[455driver]

The DfT have instructed GTR to have a visible staff presence on every "Southern" branded train with the OBS patrolling the train selling/checking tickets.

Unless the OBS is unavailable because of 1 of over 100 reasons!

 

[Antman]

They aren't visible even when they are on the train.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Even simpler would be "not valid on any scheduled services listed/branded as Gatwick Express or Thameslink". However, there would be issues with any Anytime Fares as these don't have restriction codes. Perhaps they could become an extra Off-Peak fare with an 8A style restriction code for simplicity. Personally I think I'd prefer to see the restriction clearly noted on the ticket rather than forcing GTR/DfT to hide it in restriction codes, but I guess you can't please everyone.

As mentioned above this is aganist the TSA.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

As mentioned above this is aganist the TSA.

Is it against the TSA or just not mentioned?

How could they have set a daysave fare (not valid on Gatwick Express) if it is not allowed?