More cross-border services (e.g. Clansman)

[backontrack]

Here's a question:

Is there any scope for increasing frequencies between London Kings Cross/Euston and destinations in Scotland other than Edinburgh and Glasgow? And similarly, more CrossCountry services to these places?

I'm not really talking about sleepers, though you can also discuss those here.

These are the current frequencies for Virgin Trains East Coast:

Inverness, Aviemore, Kingussie, Pitlochry, Perth, Gleneagles: 1tpd
Stirling, Falkirk Grahamston: 2tpd
Aberdeen, Stonehaven, Montrose, Arbroath, Dundee, Leuchars, Kirkcaldy, Inverkeithing: 4tpd
Carrbridge, Newtonmore, Blair Atholl, Dunkeld and Birnam, Dunblane: 1tpw

 

[Bevan Price]

Here's a question:

Is there any scope for increasing frequencies between London Kings Cross/Euston and destinations in Scotland other than Edinburgh and Glasgow? And similarly, more CrossCountry services to these places?

I'm not really talking about sleepers, though you can also discuss those here.

These are the current frequencies for Virgin Trains East Coast:

Inverness, Aviemore, Kingussie, Pitlochry, Perth, Gleneagles: 1tpd
Stirling, Falkirk Grahamston: 2tpd
Aberdeen, Stonehaven, Montrose, Arbroath, Dundee, Leuchars, Kirkcaldy, Inverkeithing: 4tpd
Carrbridge, Newtonmore, Blair Atholl, Dunkeld and Birnam, Dunblane: 1tpw

In a sensible world - yes. With the present fragmented / franchise system - probably not. But to work properly, it would also need electrification to at least as far as Perth, Dundee & Aberdeen.

(Bi-mode trains will become obsolete quickly IF we ever get a sensible, pro-electrification government. )

 

[Bald Rick]

There are plenty of places closer to London, with a much greater affinity to London, that would be ahead of most of Scotland in a queue for more / any direct services. In no particular order:

Lincoln, Grimsby, Rotherham, Bury St Edmunds, Shrewsbury, Barnsley, Huddersfield, Rochdale, Bolton, Blackpool, Middlesboro', Sunderland,

 

[tbtc]

Is there any scope for increasing frequencies between London Kings Cross/Euston and destinations in Scotland other than Edinburgh and Glasgow?

No chance finding additional paths at the London end (and, if there are then places like Liverpool will probably be ahead of places like Montrose in the pecking order for additional services).

Not a lot of scope for finding additional paths on the Highland Main Line or over the Forth Bridge.

Not much scope for extending some London - Glasgow WCML services further north, unless you want to avoid Glasgow entirely (diverting from Motherwell to serve Stirling etc instead sounds nice but will that really attract more passengers than serving central Glasgow?).

Plenty of scope for extending some London - Edinburgh services north of the Forth, but they'd have to replace some ScotRail services for reasons above.

But MSPs seemed to want to *reduce* the number of "English" services that run north of Edinburgh (but then quickly complain when Cross Country planned to reduce their Aberdeens service to a single return in the middle of the day), so I can't see them being too keen at seeing more of the Aberdeen - Dundee - Fife - Edinburgh tickets going to a "UK" TOC.

And, whilst people may prefer a GNER/ NXEC/ VTEC HST over a ScotRail Turbostar (for journeys within Scotland), with four/five coach HSTs being introduced before long, the differential may be less significant in future. So the argument for extending more KX services to Aberdeen may not be so attractive (in terms of "they'll attract more short distance passengers too).

All sounds very nice, but do you really want to disrupt services on the busy section of the ECML with problems inherited from the single track sections north of Perth/ Arbroath?

Maybe when Aberdeen was booming due to oil there'd have been an argument for more KX services to be extended there, but those days are in the past now.

 

[backontrack]

There are plenty of places closer to London, with a much greater affinity to London, that would be ahead of most of Scotland in a queue for more / any direct services. In no particular order:

Lincoln, Grimsby, Rotherham, Bury St Edmunds, Shrewsbury, Barnsley, Huddersfield, Rochdale, Bolton, Blackpool, Middlesboro', Sunderland,

Very true. In fact, I'd add a few more into the list - Birkenhead, Rotherham, Scarborough, Scunthorpe, Bradford FS - but I'd drag this thread OT if I did.

Which I have literally just done.

 

[Bald Rick]

Very true. In fact, I'd add a few more into the list - Birkenhead, Rotherham, Scarborough, Scunthorpe, Bradford FS - but I'd drag this thread OT if I did.

Which I have literally just done.

I think serving Rotherham twice is a bit OTT.

 

[adrock1976]

I think serving Rotherham twice is a bit OTT.

Thinking about it, Rotherham Central and a reopened Rotherham Masborough could be served separately.

 

[adrock1976]

On a serious point, has anybody thought about a Swansea or Cardiff - Edinburgh Waverley Intercity service via Preston?

Calling points from Cardiff could be Newport, Hereford, Shrewsbury, Gowbowen for Oswestry, Chirk, Ruabon, Wrexham General, Chester, Warrington BQ, Preston, Carlisle, Haymarket, and Edinburgh Waverley.

The reason I suggest keeping to Great Western Railway metals right to the farthest point north (just south of Warrington BQ) is that it would avoid the congestion and pathing problems at Crewe.

 

[Gareth]

Very true. In fact, I'd add a few more into the list - Birkenhead, Rotherham, Scarborough, Scunthorpe, Bradford FS - but I'd drag this thread OT if I did.

Which I have literally just done.

If you're going to give Birkenhead a shout, you may as well add Bootle. If you add Bootle, you may as well add Crosby and so on...

Of course, another topic that we also dare not drag the thread OT with is whether or not every last hamlet in the country needs a direct service to London but we'd probably end up in even more precarious territory.

 

[InOban]

On a serious point, has anybody thought about a Swansea or Cardiff - Edinburgh Waverley Intercity service via Preston?

Calling points from Cardiff could be Newport, Hereford, Shrewsbury, Gowbowen for Oswestry, Chirk, Ruabon, Wrexham General, Chester, Warrington BQ, Preston, Carlisle, Haymarket, and Edinburgh Waverley.

The reason I suggest keeping to Great Western Railway metals right to the farthest point north (just south of Warrington BQ) is that it would avoid the congestion and pathing problems at Crewe.

Except that all but two XC trains from Manchester travel via Crewe. There should be a market for some operator to offer a direct Glasgow to Plymouth train without either going the very long way round by the East coast, or changing in Birmingham (see thread on Britain's worst stations). OK, I know you could change in Coventry instead!

Seems tailor-made for a bi-mode!

 

[Altnabreac]

Can't see a case for more services but possibly for more stops.

Carnoustie could probably generate some traffic on Aberdeen services and Dunblane might have a case for weekday Chieftain services. With Bi-Modes and electrification a Dunblane stop might not be a huge time penalty.

Lockerbie and Motherwell are relatively poorly served by London services as well.

Lanarkshire and West Lothian both have potential for park and ride stations too.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The reason I suggest keeping to Great Western Railway metals right to the farthest point north (just south of Warrington BQ) is that it would avoid the congestion and pathing problems at Crewe.

Hereford-Shrewsbury was never solely GWR, nor was Chester-Warrington.
They were joint lines, and dominated by the LNWR initially.
Even the iconic signal boxes at Shrewsbury (Severn Bridge Jn and Crewe Jn) are LNWR design.

Stopping at Chirk and Ruabon disqualifies it from being a "fast" service.
You would also ideally need bi-modes, and to solve the problem of no tilt (110mph).
Voyagers (221s) would work, of course...

 

[gingerheid]

I've been looking at old timetables recently, and it is sad that the modern railway network doesn't have the variety of services that it used to have; not just services from more places in Scotland to London, or more places to London in general, or indeed more variety of long distance services that don't serve London.

But while it's easy to be sentimental, we have to also look at what else has changed.

It's sad that there's no service from Coatbridge Central to London, and it's also sad that there's no service from Glasgow to Brighton or Ipswich. It's definitely sad for me that there's less trains from Glasgow to KX!

But... those two trains a day from London to Coatbridge Central and Perth / Inverness... at the time they were still running they were the only four trains a day Coatbridge Central had!

And the changes in the network that have made outliers like this less viable have, as long as you don't really really object to changing, normally still better overall. We do have more intensive services and on the most popular routes they usually are faster (I'm aware of the exceptions...).

In 1987 you could have left Coatbridge Central at 1447 and been in London at 2036 (if it ran on time; one thing I remember about intercity trains in those days is that they never seemed to be). And nowadays you could leave Coatbridge Central at 1431 and be in London at 2012, which with a change is superficially worse. However what more than makes up for it is that fact that you could also leave Coatbridge Central at any earlier hour of your choosing and still have a similar journey time!

Likewise; there was a time the intercity services to Brighton were the majority of services from Brighton that avoided central London. In 1990 you could leave Brighton at 0918 and be in Glasgow at 1810. Nowadays that journey will involve a cross London transfer and that's not pleasant, but to make up for it you will shave 2h30m off your journey. But there are now far more local services around West London than there were at the time Intercity trains were chugging around it!

I would suggest that what we should be asking for instead is better connection opportunities. What people travelling from London to Coatbridge Central really need is for more London trains to stop at Motherwell.

And if individual routes to be improved, then that improves all the journeys made on them. What people going from Brighton to Glasgow really need is a better service from East Croydon to Watford or Milton Keynes (and the better connections...). What people going from Glasgow to Ipswich really need is a better service from Peterborough to Ipswich...

For me... I miss my Glasgow QS - Kings Cross train, and even more so the Glasgow C - KX train. They was handy for going to Cambridge. (1000-1622, changes at Peterborough and Ely).

The equivalent journey nowadays is no faster; (0940-1555), and involves a change in London (less pleasant). But at least Glasgow - Euston is now much faster than it was, and KX - Cambridge trains are too. The majority of people are making those journeys (and indeed the majority of the time I personally am making the Cambridge - KX journey), do benefit. While Glasgow to Peterborough trains would be nice; lots of other things could also make the journey better while benefiting more people!

 

[Polarbear]

One option I've thought may be of use is a service between Perth & Carlisle, via Coatbridge?

I appreciate that other than providing a direct service, it doesn't provide that many additional journey opportunities. What it can do though, is act as a feeder to/from the London - Glasgow services by calling at Lockerbie, Carstairs & Motherwell - which all see few if any West Coast services these days.

 

[gingerheid]

It would add opportunities, but how many people a day travel from places in that area to England?

A Carlisle to Perth journey would take... 2h50? (Meaning that even with an amazing connection onto a fast train you'd be looking at a 6h journey to London?)

As well as the existing direct services there are already some <6h and ~6h Perth - London journeys with connections, so you'd only want to use a Perth > Carlisle service for access to places like the Midlands or NW (unless the service was as frequent as the service to Edinburgh, which would be silly). For a journey to the Midlands the time saving over XC via Edinburgh would be really minor, so you'd end up using the train that was at the best time for your departure. Even with four units working Carlisle - Perth, on an average departure the frequency would be such that it would be XC you'd use most often.

We could get some time savings on a journey like Perth > Manchester. However again, unless the service was really frequent, often an indirect service would be best. And that's such a small potential market...

 

[route101]

Can't see a case for more services but possibly for more stops.

Carnoustie could probably generate some traffic on Aberdeen services and Dunblane might have a case for weekday Chieftain services. With Bi-Modes and electrification a Dunblane stop might not be a huge time penalty.

Lockerbie and Motherwell are relatively poorly served by London services as well.

Lanarkshire and West Lothian both have potential for park and ride stations too.

Could be dreaming but was Carnoustie served in Intercity days

 

[route101]

Often think Glasgow to Bristol via Preston should come back.
Glasgow to Nottingham via Settle
Aberdeen , Dundee to Manchester and Birmingham
Inverness , Perth Stirling , Manchester

Is there any Scottish to Oxford XC left ?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Is there any Scottish to Oxford XC left ?

0700 Edinburgh-Reading (Monday-Saturday); 1355 Edinburgh-Reading (Sunday only).

 

[anti-pacer]

Except that all but two XC trains from Manchester travel via Crewe. There should be a market for some operator to offer a direct Glasgow to Plymouth train without either going the very long way round by the East coast, or changing in Birmingham (see thread on Britain's worst stations). OK, I know you could change in Coventry instead!

Seems tailor-made for a bi-mode!

Changing in Coventry wouldn't be possible if travelling from Glasgow to Plymouth.

 

[InOban]

Changing in Coventry wouldn't be possible if travelling from Glasgow to Plymouth.

My bad. That only works for connections to Southampton, which is another possibility for the cruise market. They did try chartering a train which meandered from Edinburgh to Southampton, but if they booked space on an public service it might work better.

You could change at Wolverhampton for trains to Bristol, soon to be extended to Exeter, I believe.

But much of the market will be occasional travellers, visiting friends and family, and they always prefer through trains.

 

[Heartland]

I have a feeling that any new Cross Border services, be it Scotland/ England or England/France has at present an enforced handicap as the DfT has a tight grip on change. As to who might operate the service depends if it is part of a franchise or as open access. There is also the question of sourcing suitable rolling stock.

The Clansman was part of an age when British Railways sourced such services as loco hauled trains. They were long trains, where electric haulage might be replaced by diesel
haulage along the non electrified lines to Inverness. It travelled along the West Coast Route and was introduced when the East Coast was not electrified.

I remember it as a popular service.

 

[route101]

0700 Edinburgh-Reading (Monday-Saturday); 1355 Edinburgh-Reading (Sunday only).

Just Reading left , bournemouth on sundays until a few years back .