More Borismaster Discussion

[TheGrandWazoo]

Are these "rated capacities" an accurate measure of the number of people a bus can actually carry?

Yes, subject to wheelchairs users or people coming on with large amounts of luggage/furniture/inflatable animals

 

[tbtc]

Bendy buses taking up more road space than double deckers to carry the same number of passengers is not an opinion, it is a fact

I love people who say "fact" at the end of things, it's very Gervais...

However, the point that you are missing/ ignoring (?) is that people are reluctant to go upstairs on these kind of journeys for many reasons:

• You are only going a handful of stops
• Going upstairs means you'll be some distance from the doors when you reach your stop
• There's obviously no standing space upstairs (so people have to be fairly certain there'll be a seat before they risk it on short/medium distance journeys)
• Fighting your way up a staircase when people are wanting to come down to exit at the next stop causes frustration

...so the number of seats on a double decker becomes less of an advantage when there are unused seats upstairs whilst standees cram downstairs.

Artics can use their capacity much more efficiently - there's an incentive to move down the bus when you have a choice of doors to exit through - there's no "bad" seats (unlike on a double decker where you may have to fight your way upstairs and then fight your way downstairs).

Given the changes in road layouts for some routes that serve Oxford Street, you could potentially re-introduce some bendies there - as they probably work quite well on mostly straight roads, and where people are hopping on and off at frequent intervals (sometimes just one stop, as anyone with a Travelcard/season has nothing to lose bar some exercise!)

In an ideal world, I'd like to see a handful of very busy London corridors on a fairly straight line (e.g. Marble Arch - Oxford Street - City, Euston - Holborn - Waterloo) replaced by just one service - an artic operated route running every minute or two capable of soaking up thousands of passengers an hour - no faffing about waiting for your service from a choice of half a dozen at that stop - just board quickly and circulate people around the city centre quickly - but that'll never happen.

Nobody will have the guts to remove some existing suburban links into central London - even though the variety of routes through central London is part of the problem (since almost half the buses congesting the centre are just dropping people off). But I appreciate that's pure Crayonista

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I love people who say "fact" at the end of things, it's very Gervais...

However, the point that you are missing/ ignoring (?) is that people are reluctant to go upstairs on these kind of journeys for many reasons:

• You are only going a handful of stops
• Going upstairs means you'll be some distance from the doors when you reach your stop
• There's obviously no standing space upstairs (so people have to be fairly certain there'll be a seat before they risk it on short/medium distance journeys)
• Fighting your way up a staircase when people are wanting to come down to exit at the next stop causes frustration

...so the number of seats on a double decker becomes less of an advantage when there are unused seats upstairs whilst standees cram downstairs.

I was thinking it was more "BrassEye" - Paedophiles have more genes in common with crabs than they do with you and me. Now that's a scientific fact: there's no real evidence for it, but it is scientific fact.

You're right to highlight that there are valid reasons why some people found them more advantageous than a decker. One such article here http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/dec/11/bendy-buses-london-boris-johnson so contrary to some comments, there were people who bemoaned the exit of the bendibus

 

[carlberry]

In an ideal world, I'd like to see a handful of very busy London corridors on a fairly straight line (e.g. Marble Arch - Oxford Street - City, Euston - Holborn - Waterloo) replaced by just one service - an artic operated route running every minute or two capable of soaking up thousands of passengers an hour - no faffing about waiting for your service from a choice of half a dozen at that stop - just board quickly and circulate people around the city centre quickly - but that'll never happen.

Nobody will have the guts to remove some existing suburban links into central London - even though the variety of routes through central London is part of the problem (since almost half the buses congesting the centre are just dropping people off). But I appreciate that's pure Crayonista

I thought the whole point of buses was to drop people off! The idea of removing the (operational) inconvience of having buses going where people want to and instead making then change at various points has been tried, or threatened, a few times and people just give up and drive or get a taxi which is much more disruptive to traffic flows. TfL are hinting that they're heading in that direction by trying to force people onto Crosrail 2 after it opens even if they'd prefer to use the bus.

 

[Busaholic]

. TfL are hinting that they're heading in that direction by trying to force people onto Crosrail 2 after it opens even if they'd prefer to use the bus.

Road traffic conditions are forcing many people off buses, especially in the peak hours. The 25 route, the longest in terms of time taken, has particularly suffered from the cycling works instigated by the last mayor coupled with the disruption from Crossrail building and the theoretical level of service is a complete fiction, even allowing for the various 'temporary' timetables that have halved the frequency over the western half of the route. You might in future still be able to travel for £1.50 Oyster fare from Ilford to Oxford Circus, but you might only get one such journey every half hour. Anyway, the principle was established with Croydon Tramlink that bus routes would not compete over the same corridors as the tram, so passengers from Blackheath, say, going to Croydon on a 54 were forced to change at Beckenham Junction or, at latest, Elmers End to the tram to complete their journey.

 

[Deerfold]

The 25 route, the longest in terms of time taken, has particularly suffered from the cycling works instigated by the last mayor coupled with the disruption from Crossrail building and the theoretical level of service is a complete fiction, even allowing for the various 'temporary' timetables that have halved the frequency over the western half of the route.

I don't think there's anything temporary about this, but part of ongoing efforts to reduce the number of buses along Oxford Street.

 

[Wolfie]

TfL are hinting that they're heading in that direction by trying to force people onto Crosrail 2 after it opens even if they'd prefer to use the bus.

There will, quite righty in my view, be a review of bus (and other transport) services when a new line opens. This always happens. It makes zero sense to invest £billions in new transport links and then run all other services completely unchanged - to do so would be complete and utter economic madness.

 

[Mikey C]

The rated capacity of a Citaro bendybus was 149 passengers.

The rated capacity of a Borismaster is 87 passengers.

To carry the same number of people as a Citaro bendy you'll need 1.7 Borismasters.

Number of seats on bendy - 49
Number of seats on Borismaster - 62

To carry the same number of sitting passengers as a Borismaster, you'll need 1.27 bendies.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Number of seats on bendy - 49
Number of seats on Borismaster - 62

To carry the same number of sitting passengers as a Borismaster, you'll need 1.27 bendies.

Seats are not a priority for Central London short-hop type bus services. Every other European country knows that.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Number of seats on bendy - 49
Number of seats on Borismaster - 62

To carry the same number of sitting passengers as a Borismaster, you'll need 1.27 bendies.

You'll be advocating more tubes then to avoid standing on there too? Fact is that in peak, and with relatively short journey durations, the extra capacity makes economic sense for SELECTED routes.

 

[Robertj21a]

Number of seats on bendy - 49
Number of seats on Borismaster - 62

To carry the same number of sitting passengers as a Borismaster, you'll need 1.27 bendies.

Precisely, 49 seats - FULLY ACCESSIBLE to anyone. Absolutely ideal vehicles to use where loads are very high and many passengers only want to travel a few stops.

 

[Mikey C]

Seats are not a priority for Central London short-hop type bus services. Every other European country knows that.

How many routes are short-hop type services other than the Red Arrow routes?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Precisely, 49 seats - FULLY ACCESSIBLE to anyone. Absolutely ideal vehicles to use where loads are very high and many passengers only want to travel a few stops.

A lot of bendybus seats weren't fully accessible. This photo shows a lot of seats (e.g. the ones above the wheelarches or at the back) which require a step up

 

[Deerfold]

How many routes are short-hop type services other than the Red Arrow routes?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


A lot of bendybus seats weren't fully accessible. This photo shows a lot of seats (e.g. the ones above the wheelarches or at the back) which require a step up

Rather like most of the seats in a Borismaster?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I think it very telling that bendy buses are not seen in their natural environment of wide straight roads.... the new towns Truth is artics don't work in this country because our roads are narrow and twisty... that's why in the UK we ended up with the double decker solution... notably the decker is also popular in Ireland (twisty roads), Singapore and Hong Kong (narrow crowded streets)

 

[Deerfold]

I think it very telling that bendy buses are not seen in their natural environment of wide straight roads.... the new towns Truth is artics don't work in this country because our roads are narrow and twisty... that's why in the UK we ended up with the double decker solution... notably the decker is also popular in Ireland (twisty roads), Singapore and Hong Kong (narrow crowded streets)

You keep saying they don't work in this country ignoring the people who mention the other places in this country they do work just fine. Bendy buses have been running on various routes in Yorkshire for over 30 years with no-one complaining they don't work.

 

[Deerfold]

I think it very telling that bendy buses are not seen in their natural environment of wide straight roads.... the new towns Truth is artics don't work in this country because our roads are narrow and twisty... that's why in the UK we ended up with the double decker solution... notably the decker is also popular in Ireland (twisty roads), Singapore and Hong Kong (narrow crowded streets)

You keep saying they don't work in this country ignoring the people who mention the other places in this country they do work just fine. Bendy buses have been running on various routes in Yorkshire for over 30 years with no-one complaining they don't work.

Yorkshire is not renowned for its wide straight roads.

 

[Busaholic]

I don't think there's anything temporary about this, but part of ongoing efforts to reduce the number of buses along Oxford Street.

Not been anything to do with that, as the section of Oxford Street where a reduction in bus numbers was sought was west of Oxford Circus. Crossrail construction and its impact on the eastern end of Oxford Street, plus problems with too many buses at the Oxford Circus terminus, saw the 'temporary' (TfL's description, not mine!) termination of half the route at Holborn Circus, then these 'shorts' further pulled back to Bank and, now, as the result of the Aldgate fiasco and cycling works, back to MILE END, still on a 'temporary' basis, you understand! Now Oxford Circus to Mile End Gate is a distance that probably equates to the average length of a complete bus route in London these days.

Now for some Borismaster news that will see a further retrenchment of the customer assistant role that these buses were meant to facilitate. On the 9th May, Sadiq Khan's first full weekday in office, but entirely coincidentally I'm sure. TfL announced the results of some new route contracts, including the 38. To no-one's surprise it stays with Arriva with the same contraptions, but there is to be a peak hour reduction from 58 to 52 buses, so a fair fewer crew members will be needed, plus six buses that can go on to other routes. This will happen in the autumn.

 

[plcd1]

I think it very telling that bendy buses are not seen in their natural environment of wide straight roads.... the new towns Truth is artics don't work in this country because our roads are narrow and twisty... that's why in the UK we ended up with the double decker solution... notably the decker is also popular in Ireland (twisty roads), Singapore and Hong Kong (narrow crowded streets)

Plenty of bendy buses in Singapore run by SMRT and they're buying some new MAN ones. I'm also strugging as to where the narrow roads are - Singapore is pretty spaciously laid out with road modern roads, often dual carriageways. I've travelled by bus over a fair portion of the place.

HK I will give you - on HK Island and parts of Kowloon. However there are still many modern roads and the newer developed areas don't have narrow roads. I think the preponderance of double decks in HK is partly down to history and partly because of the enormous volumes travelling hence the extensive use of double deckers which are vastly larger than those in the UK.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

You keep saying they don't work in this country ignoring the people who mention the other places in this country they do work just fine. Bendy buses have been running on various routes in Yorkshire for over 30 years with no-one complaining they don't work.

I KEEP saying? this is only my second post on this thread so if one mention is keeping on..... but I can assure you that if ever a bendy bus was to turn up I would politely refuse to get on... they are the ONLY form of transport that induces travel sickness in me... you'd have a more comfortable journey on a bucking bronco!

 

[Deerfold]

I KEEP saying? this is only my second post on this thread so if one mention is keeping on..... but I can assure you that if ever a bendy bus was to turn up I would politely refuse to get on... they are the ONLY form of transport that induces travel sickness in me... you'd have a more comfortable journey on a bucking bronco!

Apologies - that was meant as a plural "you" - the argument keeps being made that they don't work despite there being places that they plainly do.

I'm sorry if they affect you like that, but I've not sure why they'd be worse than any other bus or tram.

 

[Robertj21a]

I KEEP saying? this is only my second post on this thread so if one mention is keeping on..... but I can assure you that if ever a bendy bus was to turn up I would politely refuse to get on... they are the ONLY form of transport that induces travel sickness in me... you'd have a more comfortable journey on a bucking bronco!

In some parts of the world you could end up waiting a very long time ! - which ones have you been on that induce travel sickness ?

 

[Bantamzen]

I've always been fascinated why so many people have been so against the use of articulated buses in this country (travel sickness notwithstanding). Everywhere I've been in Europe and the US make extensive use of them in all sorts of cities from Paris, Rome, Munich, Los Angeles, Honolulu, New York, with all sorts of differing road types. And in all these cities these buses are seen as the norm, and don't attract the kind of anger that they do here in blightly, and especially London.

As a Northerner, the whole Borismaster thing seemed rather bizarre. They had vehicles that seemed fit for their purpose (carrying large flows in an inner city area), that Boris decided would be better replaced with vastly more expensive vehicles that as nice as they may be are still just buses. They are not an icon, and the vast majority of tourists couldn't give two hoots about the blessed things. It all seemed like a bit of a vanity project, and a costly one at that. And again as an outsider the people shouting loudest about them seemed to be the ones who weren't using them, which leads me to conclude that they saw the bendy buses as something getting in their way, or something they couldn't figure out how to handle when driving / rushing around the capital. Yet the rest of the world seems to cope.....

Quite, quite bizarre!

 

[Tetchytyke]

notably the decker is also popular in Ireland (twisty roads), Singapore and Hong Kong (narrow crowded streets)

Ireland is the same as the British market, for obvious reasons, and Singapore and Hong Kong have more to do with the historical British influence than anything else.

Hong Kong's "narrow crowded streets" can cope with 12.2m tri-axle double decker buses, which don't operate in London.

 

[Mikey C]

Ireland is the same as the British market, for obvious reasons, and Singapore and Hong Kong have more to do with the historical British influence than anything else.

Hong Kong's "narrow crowded streets" can cope with 12.2m tri-axle double decker buses, which don't operate in London.

Why?

They're not some little enclave of England like Gibraltar, clinging on to their historical roots, buying double deckers to remind themselves of old London town
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Apologies - that was meant as a plural "you" - the argument keeps being made that they don't work despite there being places that they plainly do.

I'm sorry if they affect you like that, but I've not sure why they'd be worse than any other bus or tram.

I imagine the problem is the extreme movement of the rear section, both lateral AND vertical. Trams don't go around tight corners

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Why?

They're not some little enclave of England like Gibraltar, clinging on to their historical roots, buying double deckers to remind themselves of old London town

No but it was explained in post 38 in this thread. I do hope you're not ignoring posts that might inform you :roll:

 

[Mikey C]

No but it was explained in post 38 in this thread. I do hope you're not ignoring posts that might inform you :roll:

While you may have stated something in post 38, it doesn't follow that it's a fact...

I find it incredibly hard to believe that the buses of Singapore and Hong Kong NOW are simply governed by the tastes of a small number of ex pat managers :roll:

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

While you may have stated something in post 38, it doesn't follow that it's a fact...

I find it incredibly hard to believe that the buses of Singapore and Hong Kong NOW are simply governed by the tastes of a small number of ex pat managers :roll:

No, that's your opinion.

What I stated was fact and reflects that they were able to source cheap RHD vehicles whether that be AEC Regents or secondhand Guy Arabs and even DMSs. Been going on for years and hence DD usage is highly ingrained as an operational norm.

You're not very good at this fact thing :roll:

 

[Wolfie]

Hahaha.. Some VERY blunt comments about transport in general and these junkheaps in particular from Sadiq shown on the BBC yesterday... See how many of these terms in my paraphrase you recognise from the thread thus far: vanity product, over-priced, unreliable, known defects, no more to be ordered...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Doubtless the fans will be along to have a rant soon...

 

[Mikey C]

No, that's your opinion.

What I stated was fact and reflects that they were able to source cheap RHD vehicles whether that be AEC Regents or secondhand Guy Arabs and even DMSs. Been going on for years and hence DD usage is highly ingrained as an operational norm.

You're not very good at this fact thing :roll:

That they may have had some secondhand British buses may be a fact, but that was 30/40 years ago and irrelevant to operations now.

It doesn't then follow that they've been operating double deckers ever since then, just out of operational convenience. After all many British operators replaced them with single deckers or minibuses, even London.

Hong Kong and Singapore have spent fortunes on their transport infrastructure, with modern highways and expensive metro systems. If they felt that alternatives buses were better suited to the needs of the passengers, they'd have bought them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hahaha.. Some VERY blunt comments about transport in general and these junkheaps in particular from Sadiq shown on the BBC yesterday... See how many of these terms in my paraphrase you recognise from the thread thus far: vanity product, over-priced, unreliable, known defects, no more to be ordered...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Doubtless the fans will be along to have a rant soon...

New Mayor dissing the most public policy of his predecessor, knock me out with a feather

Seriously, I doubt more would have been built, even if Zak won. 1000 odd Borismasters is enough for all the main central London routes where these buses are best suited. With the new lookalike bodies from ADL and Wrights, there will still be a legacy of the design going forward anyway

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That they may have had some secondhand British buses may be a fact, but that was 30/40 years ago and irrelevant to operations now.

It doesn't then follow that they've been operating double deckers ever since then, just out of operational convenience. After all many British operators replaced them with single deckers or minibuses, even London.

Hong Kong and Singapore have spent fortunes on their transport infrastructure, with modern highways and expensive metro systems. If they felt that alternatives buses were better suited to the needs of the passengers, they'd have bought them.

Let me put it in really simple terms.

They have historically had double deckers since the post war period. Their operations have consistently had double deckers and that has simply followed on and on. Whether that was post war Guy Arabs, through to the 1960s and even post UK deregulation when secondhand Metrobuses made their way across. That's 40 years of double deck operation largely attributable to former UK managers.

That legacy is also apparent in areas like service design, bus stop infrastructure and the like. It was also apparent in the design of 3 axle deckers like the Dragon.

Singapore have indeed spent a fortune on their buses - some of which are articulated single deckers hock:. Singapore recognise that there are areas and routes in which their capacity is well suited - London with a myriad of services across 600 square miles doesn't have ONE such service. Yeah, right.... :roll: