More Borismaster Discussion

[Dent]

When the windows are closed on the conventional buses the chiller units make a difference. They don't make a difference when the windows are open, because the cold air goes straight out to be replaced by hot air from outside.

Won't adding opening windows to these buses cause exactly the same problem?

 

[Busaholic]

For me, the Borisbus seems to be a step backwards as far as accessibility is concerned. I travel regularly with my wife's 95-year old grandmother so am used to looking out how easy journeys will be with her.

On the Borisbus, although the entrance is low floor the majority of seats require a large step up to access (other London buses also suffer from this to a lesser degree, certainly worse than the buses I see in Keighley).

Accessibility is becoming a big issue on London double-deckers, aside from the small minority of wheelchair users who, rightly, are being given some priority. The latest Wrightbus creation will, in London mode, provide a whole SEVENTEEN seats downstairs. That is not only pathetic, but a scandal! Most journeys outside the Central London area in peak hours are populated by people who are loath, or unable, to ascend to the upper deck, partly because of the way in which some drivers drive with heavy acceleration/braking. Conversion of routes to double deck, as is now happening on an almost monthly basis e.g. routes 62 and 368 in East London this weekend, may in theory add more capacity but will actually inconvenience a significant number of passengers, not all of whom will be Freedom Pass holders.

 

[Robertj21a]

Accessibility is becoming a big issue on London double-deckers, aside from the small minority of wheelchair users who, rightly, are being given some priority. The latest Wrightbus creation will, in London mode, provide a whole SEVENTEEN seats downstairs. That is not only pathetic, but a scandal! Most journeys outside the Central London area in peak hours are populated by people who are loath, or unable, to ascend to the upper deck, partly because of the way in which some drivers drive with heavy acceleration/braking. Conversion of routes to double deck, as is now happening on an almost monthly basis e.g. routes 62 and 368 in East London this weekend, may in theory add more capacity but will actually inconvenience a significant number of passengers, not all of whom will be Freedom Pass holders.

Anyone with some common sense would realise, as most other countries have, that busy routes benefit from articulated buses !. Perhaps the new Mayor could be prompted to arrange for their re-introduction to suitable routes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it that pathetic?

Standees plus those requiring accessible seating downstairs (i.e. all seats should be priority seating), those wishing to travel further upstairs? That's how I tend to use London buses.

 

[Mikey C]

Accessibility is becoming a big issue on London double-deckers, aside from the small minority of wheelchair users who, rightly, are being given some priority. The latest Wrightbus creation will, in London mode, provide a whole SEVENTEEN seats downstairs. That is not only pathetic, but a scandal! Most journeys outside the Central London area in peak hours are populated by people who are loath, or unable, to ascend to the upper deck, partly because of the way in which some drivers drive with heavy acceleration/braking. Conversion of routes to double deck, as is now happening on an almost monthly basis e.g. routes 62 and 368 in East London this weekend, may in theory add more capacity but will actually inconvenience a significant number of passengers, not all of whom will be Freedom Pass holders.

Did you mean off peak, as during peak hours my experience is of the top deck being completely full in central areas, and still well used in surburbia

Even off peak, the upper deck seats are well used. How many times will there be more than 17 people on a bus who NEED to sit downstairs anyway? Drivers in off peak tend to drive slower anyway, with lighter traffic and an older clientèle...

 

[the101]

The latest Wrightbus creation will, in London mode, provide a whole SEVENTEEN seats downstairs. That is not only pathetic, but a scandal!

If you are talking about the SRM then no, it does not have 17 seats downstairs, and even if it did it would not be 'a scandal'.

 

[Busaholic]

Did you mean off peak, as during peak hours my experience is of the top deck being completely full in central areas, and still well used in surburbia

Even off peak, the upper deck seats are well used. How many times will there be more than 17 people on a bus who NEED to sit downstairs anyway? Drivers in off peak tend to drive slower anyway, with lighter traffic and an older clientèle...

Yes, I meant offpeak. NEED or WANT are terms that can be argued about.

I forget the name of the website now, but the one where three ladies of pension age traversed the length of each bus route, almost always in the offpeak, was very instructive about each route from a passenger point of view. They always tried to travel upstairs if possible, in order to observe significant landmarks, and many, many times commented on how few passengers ventured upstairs, even when large numbers were travelling.

 

[Mikey C]

Yes, I meant offpeak. NEED or WANT are terms that can be argued about.

I forget the name of the website now, but the one where three ladies of pension age traversed the length of each bus route, almost always in the offpeak, was very instructive about each route from a passenger point of view. They always tried to travel upstairs if possible, in order to observe significant landmarks, and many, many times commented on how few passengers ventured upstairs, even when large numbers were travelling.

My elderly father always goes upstairs, as he enjoys the view

 

[Antman]

Anyone with some common sense would realise, as most other countries have, that busy routes benefit from articulated buses !. Perhaps the new Mayor could be prompted to arrange for their re-introduction to suitable routes.

And anybody with common sense would realise there are few routes that are suitable for articulated buses.

 

[bb21]

And anybody with common sense would realise there are few routes that are suitable for articulated buses.

Quite a few as things stand, and with a few minor tweaks, there can be a long list of candidates.

It's all about whether one can be bothered, and in the case of Boris, whether one has ideological reasons.

 

[Mikey C]

And anybody with common sense would realise there are few routes that are suitable for articulated buses.

Well done of the Mayor candidates have mentioned bringing them back, if they were so loved, why not?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Well done of the Mayor candidates have mentioned bringing them back, if they were so loved, why not?

Perhaps because they have the financial millstone of the NB4L and so wouldn't want/be able to fund another fleet of vehicles especially as the operators got saddled with the last bendi's.

You raise a very good issue though.... If the NB4L is so loved, then why did TfL have to buy them and not the operators? Nor why hasn't the rest of the world embraced them either? After all, even those cities that do operate deckers prefer to take other vehicles?

Why might that be, if they're so good?

 

[Antman]

Well done of the Mayor candidates have mentioned bringing them back, if they were so loved, why not?

Exactly and I don't recall too many tears being shed when they were withdrawn, we had mass standee single deckers in London back in the 70's and they were unpopular so I don't know why anybody expected articulated buses to be anymore successfull.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Exactly and I don't recall too many tears being shed when they were withdrawn, we had mass standee single deckers in London back in the 70's and they were unpopular so I don't know why anybody expected articulated buses to be anymore successfull.

We had standard off the peg buses (MCW Metrobuses, Leyland Olympians, Dennis Tridents etc) for 30 years without issues. Why do we now need a bespoke product for London? No one shed a tear for them yet they were excellent servants

And again, I ask the question. If it's such a wizard idea, why doesn't anyone, anywhere else buy Borismasters?

 

[90sWereBetter]

I never liked the bendy buses in London, but equally I'm coming to dislike the Borismasters, due to the sheer number of them in zone 1 now. Let's hope they never come to the 4, 17 or 45, three of my favourite zone 1 routes.

And yeah, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a bog-standard Enviro 400 or Volvo hybrid. Wouldn't have minded another couple of hundred of them in service in the capital.

 

[randyrippley]

FWIW, none of the Borismasters I've seen on delivery trips through Lancaster this past week have had opening windows

 

[Busaholic]

It's somewhere about a quarter of journeys using the NB4L that carry them, IIRC. Happy to be corrected on that. But it is only fair to spread the cost of the Customer Assistants across the fleet.

Now well below 20% of journeys Monday to Friday daytime and about 5% at weekends (i.e. route 11), these proportions decreasing every month as more routes get converted - the 91 next.

 

[Robertj21a]

And anybody with common sense would realise there are few routes that are suitable for articulated buses.

Sorry, that has to be totally inaccurate. There's nothing 'special' about London.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Is it that pathetic?

Standees plus those requiring accessible seating downstairs (i.e. all seats should be priority seating), those wishing to travel further upstairs? That's how I tend to use London buses.

The problem is where most people are not travelling very far, which is often the case in London. As I said further up the thread, it was a constant source of frustration in Muswell Hill that the 43 and 134 would fly past the stop "full", even though one could see 10 seats free upstairs. Trying to get on a 38 on Essex Road in a morning is similarly challenging.

And again, I ask the question. If it's such a wizard idea, why doesn't anyone, anywhere else buy Borismasters?

First in Leeds had one on trial last year. Leeds has a very similar intensive bus usage to London, given the lack of light rail. No orders were forthcoming, and they have gone for conventional deckers; indeed First in Leeds continue to use bendybuses on their busy 72 route.

 

[Deerfold]

Borismasters in Leeds were part of First's plans to scupper the trolleybus and were only ever going to appear if someone else could be persuaded to pay for the extra cost and the customer assistant.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem is where most people are not travelling very far, which is often the case in London. As I said further up the thread, it was a constant source of frustration in Muswell Hill that the 43 and 134 would fly past the stop "full", even though one could see 10 seats free upstairs. Trying to get on a 38 on Essex Road in a morning is similarly challenging.

That kind of route where most people are travelling short distances would seem to be better with bendies, or if those are unacceptable then long standee single deckers like the Red Arrows.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That kind of route where most people are travelling short distances would seem to be better with bendies, or if those are unacceptable then long standee single deckers like the Red Arrows.

No Neil - London is unique in the pantheon of world cities. Such ideas will work elsewhere in rural backwaters like central Paris but not in the singular urban environment that is London

In all seriousness, there are routes that clearly don't suit bendies and some that do. However, Boris made the decision that no routes suit bendies and that's clearly piffle.

 

[Antman]

No Neil - London is unique in the pantheon of world cities. Such ideas will work elsewhere in rural backwaters like central Paris but not in the singular urban environment that is London

In all seriousness, there are routes that clearly don't suit bendies and some that do. However, Boris made the decision that no routes suit bendies and that's clearly piffle.

You mean you think it's piffle? I don't recall any great outcry at the removal of bendybuses which suggests most people were either glad to see them gone or weren't greatly bothered one way or t'other?
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Sorry, that has to be totally inaccurate. There's nothing 'special' about London.

What do mean "special"? There are very few articulated buses anywhere else in the UK so why should London be any different?
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FWIW, none of the Borismasters I've seen on delivery trips through Lancaster this past week have had opening windows

Apparently there is an LT on the 148 with opening windows, I can't remember the fleet number

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

You mean you think it's piffle? I don't recall any great outcry at the removal of bendybuses which suggests most people were either glad to see them gone or weren't greatly bothered one way or t'other?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


What do mean "special"? There are very few articulated buses anywhere else in the UK so why should London be any different?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Apparently there is an LT on the 148 with opening windows, I can't remember the fleet number

Piffle in that Boris decided that there was no route, not one single example in all of London, that suited Bendies. Really? Not one single route? At all? In a world city like London?

Of course, London is apparently different. Other places still have bendies in use but not London...none at all. So other UK cities can use and so can many other similar cities across Europe.... but not London?

In fact, so pernicious were they that they had to be removed from service early incurring extensive costs from both the outstanding capital/lease costs AND the fact that their replacements were smaller capacity so necessitating more vehicles and so higher costs.

As for any outcry.... Apart from the routemaster (and perhaps the last RT), I see very little interest let alone outcry by the general public for any vehicle withdrawal. Were there throngs of people, openly weeping as the last Metrobus came off service? Did the Samaritans have specially coached advisors ready to deal with the trauma of the last Titan getting withdrawn?

So yeah, the latter. Not bothered one way or t'other is the most likely. So with Boris's twin policies of the LT AND the removal of the bendies, I wonder how much that has actually cost TfL and what could have been achieved with that money?

 

[Tetchytyke]

So with Boris's twin policies of the LT AND the removal of the bendies, I wonder how much that has actually cost TfL and what could have been achieved with that money?

Debates about the NB4L always seem to degenerate into "I think this bus is ace!" and "I think this bus is rubbish!". For me, that's wrong.

The NB4L is quite a nice piece of kit. The issue is the cost. It doesn't do anything an off-the-shelf bus couldn't do. It costs a lot more than an off-the-shelf bus- it could be as much as £75m more than the same sized fleet bought off-the-shelf. In a time of cutbacks across the country, just think what TfL could have done with that £75m.

What annoys me is that Boris, a senior politician in a party promoting austerity, has chucked £75m up the wall on a vanity project.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Debates about the NB4L always seem to degenerate into "I think this bus is ace!" and "I think this bus is rubbish!". For me, that's wrong.

The NB4L is quite a nice piece of kit. The issue is the cost. It doesn't do anything an off-the-shelf bus couldn't do. It costs a lot more than an off-the-shelf bus- it could be as much as £75m more than the same sized fleet bought off-the-shelf. In a time of cutbacks across the country, just think what TfL could have done with that £75m.

What annoys me is that Boris, a senior politician in a party promoting austerity, has chucked £75m up the wall on a vanity project.

Exactly David.

I've been on them and thought they were fine. The look of them has grown on me.

However, the folly of this in a time of austerity is what gets me and, dare I say it, it seems that good money has been spent on something that wasn't needed in order to promote one persons' political ambitions.

 

[Deerfold]

You mean you think it's piffle? I don't recall any great outcry at the removal of bendybuses which suggests most people were either glad to see them gone or weren't greatly bothered one way or t'other?

There was an article in the Evening Standard on the day the 507 and 521 were replaced by smaller buses on the chaos that occurred at Waterloo despite the newspaper being a huge Boris supporter.

London TravelWatch campaigned to save them.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/now-travel-group-wants-to-save-the-bendy-bus-6811912.html

What do mean "special"? There are very few articulated buses anywhere else in the UK so why should London be any different?

Most places in Britain don't use them because they don't have the numbers to support using them - the same reason many places see few or no double deckers.

I've caught them on multiple local routes in Bradford, Leeds and Sheffield without going any great distance from my home. They were used in Sheffield as long ago as the 80s.

They currently run every 7-8 minutes between Bradford and Leeds on route 72.

London doesn't have very few. It has none. Why is London so different from Bradford, Leeds and Sheffield that it has not a single route suitable for a bendybus?

Unfortunately as London has ruled them out for now, many manufacturers are not designing articulated buses for driving on the left as the remaining markets are quite small.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I've caught them on multiple local routes in Bradford, Leeds and Sheffield without going any great distance from my home. They were used in Sheffield as long ago as the 80s.

They currently run every 7-8 minutes between Bradford and Leeds on route 72.

London doesn't have very few. It has none. Why is London so different from Bradford, Leeds and Sheffield that it has not a single route suitable for a bendybus?

Out of interest, how do they deal there with the issue of it being so easy for people to evade fares on bendy-buses?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, replacing the Red Arrows with shorter non-articulated buses, which were also Citaros, with exactly the same multi-door boarding and alighting was nothing but a waste of money.

Funny I haven't heard of Borismasters referred to as "Uncle Bozza's Free Buses", when they are no more or less so than the artics were.

 

[Antman]

There was an article in the Evening Standard on the day the 507 and 521 were replaced by smaller buses on the chaos that occurred at Waterloo despite the newspaper being a huge Boris supporter.

London TravelWatch campaigned to save them.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/now-travel-group-wants-to-save-the-bendy-bus-6811912.html



Most places in Britain don't use them because they don't have the numbers to support using them - the same reason many places see few or no double deckers.

I've caught them on multiple local routes in Bradford, Leeds and Sheffield without going any great distance from my home. They were used in Sheffield as long ago as the 80s.

They currently run every 7-8 minutes between Bradford and Leeds on route 72.

London doesn't have very few. It has none. Why is London so different from Bradford, Leeds and Sheffield that it has not a single route suitable for a bendybus?

Unfortunately as London has ruled them out for now, many manufacturers are not designing articulated buses for driving on the left as the remaining markets are quite small.

Probably just teething problems on the 507 and 521, both routes are fine now without artics.

Why should London (ie TfL) be obligated to operate some artics just to appease enthusiasts?

The fact that they are no longer being built for driving on the left says it all.