More Borismaster Discussion

[jon0844]

The Boris bus seems to be very popular with advertisers, and the design seems to lend itself well to all-over vinyl branding.. so I wonder if there has been an uplift in revenue from this?

In fact, in this day and age, things like that should be factored in to the overall cost.

 

[the101]

And lots of people hate them, as shown by the result of the Mayor election

I imagine that most normal people will not give more than a passing thought to what type of buses happen to operate in their city and most certainly will not have chosen which candidate to vote for based on his position on artics.

Unlike the obsessive bus enthusiast type that we sadly see too much of, who regard these matters as about as important as life and death, most individuals have many more important things to worry about.
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He then promised in 2012 to implement the New Bus for London "at no more cost than an existing hybrid bus".

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/boris-johnson-2012-transport-manifesto

Do let me know how he got on with those promises.

As we can now see, he was wrong about that.

Just like when you pulled the £150k figure out of the air and presented it factually as the price premium for a NBfL over a conventional hybrid, you were wrong too.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't seem to remember him telling the electorate how much this exercise cost.

He promised in his manifesto that it would cost no more than an ordinary hybrid double decker. Oops.

The idea people voted for him because of a bus is, as you say, laughable.

Indeed, it's one of the few things the Mayor has direct control over, the other pledges to do with housing and crime are much less controllable.

He promised in his manifesto not to close any ticket offices, "reversing" the proposals made by Livingstone. Oh.
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Just like when you pulled the £150k figure out of the air and presented it factually as the price premium for a NBfL over a conventional hybrid, you were wrong too.

I think we established that I was (there or thereabouts) right with that.

The cost in the bus was between £50k and £75k per unit, depending on which comparator model you look at.

The additional staffing costs- approximately £30k per customer assistant per year- bring it up to the rest.

 

[the101]

It copies some of the distinctive design features so that at a glance it appears to be the same. But I think the point is whether there's anything wrong with doing that if an "iconic" vehicle is needed, rather than designing something new from the ground up.

The reason the E400 City looks like a New RM is because TfL specifically asked other manufacturers to incorporate elements of the New RM's design into their own models, so there is no 'copying' involved. ADL are merely following TfL's instructions.
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I think we established that I was (there or thereabouts) right with that.

The cost in the bus was between £50k and £75k per unit, depending on which comparator model you look at.

The additional staffing costs- approximately £30k per customer assistant per year- bring it up to the rest.

Nothing was 'established' for the simple reason that only a minority of the New RMs carry customer assistants.

You said that "a NB4L costs in the region of £150,000 more than an off-the-shelf hybrid double decker, and about £250,000 more than a conventional diesel double decker." No mention or insinuation of staff costs. As ever on here, it is ill-informed opinion presented as fact.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Nothing was 'established' for the simple reason that only a minority of the New RMs carry customer assistants.

It's somewhere about a quarter of journeys using the NB4L that carry them, IIRC. Happy to be corrected on that. But it is only fair to spread the cost of the Customer Assistants across the fleet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's somewhere about a quarter of journeys using the NB4L that carry them, IIRC. Happy to be corrected on that. But it is only fair to spread the cost of the Customer Assistants across the fleet.

Is it? Most of the non-gimmicky[1] benefits of the NBfL are available without a conductor. And I would expect them to be abolished soon enough.

[1] Jumping on and off a moving bus can be fun - but the practical benefits offered by the ability to do that can also be offered by positioning bus stops and interchanges properly. It became apparent how bad that was on Oxford St when the original RMs disappeared, for instance - simply because everyone was ignoring them and boarding and alighting at traffic lights.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Is it? Most of the non-gimmicky[1] benefits of the NBfL are available without a conductor. And I would expect them to be abolished soon enough.

What are the "non-gimmicky" benefits that are available that are unique to the Borismaster?

I mean, of course, the quantifiable benefits, not the subjective stuff and nonsense like "icons" and "retro feel".

Take the rear platform out of it, and you're left with a hybrid decker that is no more reliable, no more environmental...

However, unlike other deckers, it may have little or no residual value as it is unlikely to be redeployed elsewhere (given its non standard nature) and costs nearly £360k as opposed to £300k for a standard hybrid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What are the "non-gimmicky" benefits that are available that are unique to the Borismaster?

There aren't any - but there is no other UK design of bus that puts them all together in one package. I'm thinking things like 3 doors/2 staircases, and the hybrid driveline.

And the "iconic" design *does* have value, IMO. Anything that attracts people to bus use.

Take the rear platform out of it, and you're left with a hybrid decker that is no more reliable, no more environmental...

Rear doors have some of the value, e.g. being closer when running for the bus, avoiding people not wishing to move down the bus because they might feel they won't be able to alight. Indeed I've said before that 2-door buses would in my view be better with front and rear doors than front and centre. Certainly away from deckers, the large and often overcrowded fleet of short single-deckers in London would be best if they looked like this:

Far, far better for passenger flow. Notably also 2+1 seated inside to allow for more standing space and easier access. Wheelchairs on these board and alight at the rear (as there is a low floor throughout), but several layouts are possible.

 

[Mikey C]

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/mayor/boris-johnsons-winning-manifesto-6615230.html

* Will phase out bendy buses and replace them with a fleet of hybrid Routemasters that he now estimates will cost up to £100 million.

This story from 2008 has a figure of £100m for the cost, I don't know what that means (how much of that is development cost, how much of that is the cost per bus or the excess over a normal bus) but it does show that the new bus was something that would cost as premium

What people forget, is that the bendy bus isn't just an issue for people who use them. Drivers, cyclists, users of other bus routes, tourism chiefs, pedestrians will have opinions on them as well.

 

[plcd1]

There aren't any - but there is no other UK design of bus that puts them all together in one package. I'm thinking things like 3 doors/2 staircases, and the hybrid driveline.

And the "iconic" design *does* have value, IMO. Anything that attracts people to bus use.

Excuse me while I die laughing at your final sentence. I know we completely disagree about the "merits" of the Borismaster but all it has done for me is vastly reduce the amount of bus travel I now make. The West End is now virtually a no go area for me if I wish to use buses. As they are now starting to get opening windows (Route 148 seems to be first) I may well take a ride on a modified vehicle to see if the ambience is any better. I suspect it won't be that different but I'll give it a chance.

From an enthusiast viewpoint, so of no relevance to the general public, I'm also extremely bored with them being in such numbers in some parts of Central London. Everywhere you look that's all you see. I'm beginning to realise what it must have been like when everything was a RT or RM. (heresy to some I know). I like a bit of vehicular variety. I was never really "in love" with the Routemaster but I had no issues with using them. For a non Londoner they were something of a novelty when I first arrived in the Capital.

On a slightly more practical note the NB4L does have good fuel consumption - that's a demonstrable financial benefit. If the bus was lighter I expect it would be even more economical. Its environmental credentials are now nothing special given other buses have benefitted from further technological and design development.
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The Boris bus seems to be very popular with advertisers, and the design seems to lend itself well to all-over vinyl branding.. so I wonder if there has been an uplift in revenue from this?

In fact, in this day and age, things like that should be factored in to the overall cost.

I suspect there has been something of an uplift - essential, of course, given TfL's financial woes. However TfL have capped the number of all over advert buses as there has been an amount of criticism about how the buses look (some designs are hideous) and whether it creates confusion for passengers and visitors who expect a red bus to turn up.

 

[jon0844]

I can see some potential for confusion but bar coaches and tour buses, any bus in London is a London bus so you're mostly looking for the number. Go out of London with different operators and competing tickets etc and it gets messy, and we have buses here without working displays so then it gets really hard!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Excuse me while I die laughing at your final sentence. I know we completely disagree about the "merits" of the Borismaster but all it has done for me is vastly reduce the amount of bus travel I now make. The West End is now virtually a no go area for me if I wish to use buses. As they are now starting to get opening windows (Route 148 seems to be first) I may well take a ride on a modified vehicle to see if the ambience is any better. I suspect it won't be that different but I'll give it a chance.

From an enthusiast viewpoint, so of no relevance to the general public, I'm also extremely bored with them being in such numbers in some parts of Central London. Everywhere you look that's all you see. I'm beginning to realise what it must have been like when everything was a RT or RM. (heresy to some I know). I like a bit of vehicular variety. I was never really "in love" with the Routemaster but I had no issues with using them. For a non Londoner they were something of a novelty when I first arrived in the Capital.

On a slightly more practical note the NB4L does have good fuel consumption - that's a demonstrable financial benefit. If the bus was lighter I expect it would be even more economical. Its environmental credentials are now nothing special given other buses have benefitted from further technological and design development.
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I suspect there has been something of an uplift - essential, of course, given TfL's financial woes. However TfL have capped the number of all over advert buses as there has been an amount of criticism about how the buses look (some designs are hideous) and whether it creates confusion for passengers and visitors who expect a red bus to turn up.

Two good points Paul...

The Borismaster does nothing that cannot be done by anything else (except have a rear platform that isn't used most of the time) and even the hybrid performance is nothing special.

Put this way, if it were, other people would be buying it and it would be some sort of export icon..... it isn't.

Secondly, the need for TfL to balance the books has meant a need to increase non-farebox revenues and overall ad buses are merely one indication of this. However, this is again nothing special regarding the Borismaster AND if anyone thinks that the marketing departments of Adidas or Unilever are ringing up and specifying an ad on a Borismaster because of its "icon status", then you're in La La Land.

 

[jon0844]

I never said anything about icon status, merely that the bus lends itself well to all over advertising.

I have no idea why you wrote the last paragraph to be honest. It's a response to something that wasn't said here.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/mayor/boris-johnsons-winning-manifesto-6615230.html



This story from 2008 has a figure of £100m for the cost, I don't know what that means (how much of that is development cost, how much of that is the cost per bus or the excess over a normal bus) but it does show that the new bus was something that would cost as premium

What people forget, is that the bendy bus isn't just an issue for people who use them. Drivers, cyclists, users of other bus routes, tourism chiefs, pedestrians will have opinions on them as well.

I would be very sceptical of anything that the Standard printed. Not only unashamedly BoJo friendly and anti-Red Ken, Veronica Wadley (the then editor) has subsequently been championed in her future roles by Boris http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/oct/08/boris-johnson-veronica-wadley-arts-council

Therefore, revisionist history is something that you should be conscious of.

The £100m figure is, of course, massively understated. The cost differential figure vs 600 standard vehicles (and incl. retrofitting opening windows) is >£34m alone. Then factor in the cost of "customer assistants" which even if only a quarter of the original fleet are used as such is £130m over 14 years, the development costs for the prototypes etc and it blows £100m our of the water.

Of course, this fails to then account for the double whammy of using them on routes like the 38 and 73 with an increase in running costs because of using deckers instead of bendis.

Any which way you look at it, the sums didn't and don't add up
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I never said anything about icon status, merely that the bus lends itself well to all over advertising.

I have no idea why you wrote the last paragraph to be honest. It's a response to something that wasn't said here.

I never said you did but in case anyone DID say it, I was pre-empting such rubbish.

 

[plcd1]

However, this is again nothing special regarding the Borismaster AND if anyone thinks that the marketing departments of Adidas or Unilever are ringing up and specifying an ad on a Borismaster because of its "icon status", then you're in La La Land.

You know what I'm going to partially disagree with that. Clearly the main reason is that NB4L operated routes are concentrated in Central London and / or serve areas with the "right" demographic for the advertisers. However given the abject shallowness of some marketing / media types I'd not be that astonished if some advertising is placed on NB4Ls because the marketing luvvies like the bus and think their adverts would suit the bus. We can't escape the fact that some people do think it's nice. The sheer bulk of the bus also provides a larger "tableau" for adverts too.

 

[Tetchytyke]

You see the same wrap advertising applied to other conventional deckers that run in the central area, especially the ones that run the 205. There is an appeal for central London routes, and TfL do charge more for them- that's why the central buses have yellow advertising mountings- but I don't think the NB4L advertising will be anything more than that.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

You know what I'm going to partially disagree with that. Clearly the main reason is that NB4L operated routes are concentrated in Central London and / or serve areas with the "right" demographic for the advertisers. However given the abject shallowness of some marketing / media types I'd not be that astonished if some advertising is placed on NB4Ls because the marketing luvvies like the bus and think their adverts would suit the bus. We can't escape the fact that some people do think it's nice. The sheer bulk of the bus also provides a larger "tableau" for adverts too.

I fully agree with you in terms of central London routes - they will seek to have those routes in order to maximise coverage etc.

The fact that NB4Ls are the dominant vehicle type in central London (or so it feels) means that by default, they will have more advertising buses. Having worked with the aforesaid media types at various times, let me assure you they may have been attracted by the initial media splurge but not now. Also, I'm not one of the haters in terms of the look of the Borismaster. In that respect, I think it's perfectly fine.

However, if you remove it's raison d'etre (which to be fair, TfL beat us to it by not using the rear platforms, then the comparison with it's competitors is...

• It's considerably more expensive
• Has a lower capacity
• Has worse emissions - remember that it has an exemption because it doesn't hit Boris' own imposed standards
• Has little or no resale value

All this at a time when budgets are being squeezed. That's what annoys me. The idea that £m's can metaphorically be p*ssed against the wall in an age of austerity

 

[Robertj21a]

I fully agree with you in terms of central London routes - they will seek to have those routes in order to maximise coverage etc.

The fact that NB4Ls are the dominant vehicle type in central London (or so it feels) means that by default, they will have more advertising buses. Having worked with the aforesaid media types at various times, let me assure you they may have been attracted by the initial media splurge but not now. Also, I'm not one of the haters in terms of the look of the Borismaster. In that respect, I think it's perfectly fine.

However, if you remove it's raison d'etre (which to be fair, TfL beat us to it by not using the rear platforms, then the comparison with it's competitors is...

• It's considerably more expensive
• Has a lower capacity
• Has worse emissions - remember that it has an exemption because it doesn't hit Boris' own imposed standards
• Has little or no resale value

All this at a time when budgets are being squeezed. That's what annoys me. The idea that £m's can metaphorically be p*ssed against the wall in an age of austerity

Also:-

Longer
Poor turning circle (has needed street mods)
Poor air circulation/inadequate chiller - opening windows mod

 

[yorksrob]

I travelled n the Borismaster for the first time this weekend. All in all, it seemed a very nice well designed bus. I also travelled on a more traditional double decker in the capital and the Borismaster was more aesthetically designed inside, the seats were more comfortable and the back entrance made it a lot easier to enter and exit.

Extremely good for a bus IMO.

 

[Robertj21a]

I travelled n the Borismaster for the first time this weekend. All in all, it seemed a very nice well designed bus. I also travelled on a more traditional double decker in the capital and the Borismaster was more aesthetically designed inside, the seats were more comfortable and the back entrance made it a lot easier to enter and exit.

Extremely good for a bus IMO.

Just wait until the novelty wears off and you have to use it regularly !!

 

[Tetchytyke]

the back entrance made it a lot easier to enter and exit.

The novelty wears off

 

[jon0844]

Ignoring the cost, as most people will (especially those who didn't pay for them) I think they're fine, and the seats are comfortable with some actual leg room.

The issue is the sir conditioning, which seems so poor, but should surely be fixable at the expense of the manufacturer? Windows don't really solve the problem, although clearly they're necessary if the cooling is not up to scratch.

 

[yorksrob]

Just wait until the novelty wears off and you have to use it regularly !!

Oh I'm sure that's true, but doubtless more so for traditional buses.

The interior still strikes me as better than the other buses I've used in London, just as the 144's I use regularly are much better than a lot of the 142's I use regularly (even though for me they lost any sense of novelty in about 2003)

 

[Robertj21a]

Ignoring the cost, as most people will (especially those who didn't pay for them) I think they're fine, and the seats are comfortable with some actual leg room.

The issue is the sir conditioning, which seems so poor, but should surely be fixable at the expense of the manufacturer? Windows don't really solve the problem, although clearly they're necessary if the cooling is not up to scratch.

I find the seats poor, and uncomfortable, with too little legroom. The inside is, for me, far too dull [I know, ....'retro'....]

Just goes to show that we all prioritise different issues.

 

[jon0844]

I'm not convinced by the retro interior either, but as someone using buses of various ages and conditions outside of London, these buses are still fine for the purpose of carrying me around London.

Of course there are many other modern buses just as capable, hence the debate.

 

[Deerfold]

For me, the Borisbus seems to be a step backwards as far as accessibility is concerned. I travel regularly with my wife's 95-year old grandmother so am used to looking out how easy journeys will be with her.

On the Borisbus, although the entrance is low floor the majority of seats require a large step up to access (other London buses also suffer from this to a lesser degree, certainly worse than the buses I see in Keighley).

 

[Mikey C]

Ignoring the cost, as most people will (especially those who didn't pay for them) I think they're fine, and the seats are comfortable with some actual leg room.

The issue is the sir conditioning, which seems so poor, but should surely be fixable at the expense of the manufacturer? Windows don't really solve the problem, although clearly they're necessary if the cooling is not up to scratch.

The air cooling system (it's not full air con as that would be too heavy) is TfL's fault I guess. It's interesting that the latest conventional DDs have fewer opening windows that before, clearly TfL feel that the air chiller units provide more benefits.

For most of the year, I've found upstairs on Borismasters perfectly pleasant, one big benefit of the air cooling system is that it keeps the interior nice and steam free, conventional DDs can get horribly humid and steamed up upstairs when it's raining and nobody opens the windows.

 

[yorksrob]

I find the seats poor, and uncomfortable, with too little legroom. The inside is, for me, far too dull [I know, ....'retro'....]

Just goes to show that we all prioritise different issues.

I'm not convinced by the retro interior either, but as someone using buses of various ages and conditions outside of London, these buses are still fine for the purpose of carrying me around London.

Of course there are many other modern buses just as capable, hence the debate.

The interior of the Boris bus seemed to be well designed, even down to the moquette to me, but more importantly the seats weren't like planks, unlike the other double decker I travelled on, which seemed to be more uncomfortable than even the buses in Leeds.

 

[bb21]

The air cooling system (it's not full air con as that would be too heavy) is TfL's fault I guess. It's interesting that the latest conventional DDs have fewer opening windows that before, clearly TfL feel that the air chiller units provide more benefits.

For most of the year, I've found upstairs on Borismasters perfectly pleasant, one big benefit of the air cooling system is that it keeps the interior nice and steam free, conventional DDs can get horribly humid and steamed up upstairs when it's raining and nobody opens the windows.

Upstairs is not actually too bad, and has a reasonable ambience about them, especially when there is no one around.

I sat in the bay over the wheel arch downstairs yesterday. I don't think I could find any leg-room, and my rear end could barely fit onto the seat. Comfort (or lack of) comparable to that of sitting in an Urban90 with your knees firmly against the seat in front.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The air cooling system (it's not full air con as that would be too heavy) is TfL's fault I guess. It's interesting that the latest conventional DDs have fewer opening windows that before, clearly TfL feel that the air chiller units provide more benefits.

When the windows are closed on the conventional buses the chiller units make a difference. They don't make a difference when the windows are open, because the cold air goes straight out to be replaced by hot air from outside. It's good to have some windows open though to give a draught through the bus.

The chiller units on conventional deckers are bigger than on the Borismaster though, and as the chilling system is only down one side of the bus it can pump more air out.

The problem with the Borismaster is that all that cold air goes straight out the great hole in the back.

I don't disagree that the NB4L is a nice piece of kit, I like it and I like the interior. My issue remains the cost of it, given that it does nothing that a conventional decker cannot do yet costs significantly more- and I notice TfL are not saying how much the window mods are costing.