More 66s to be built?

[jamieintercity]

Found this on WNXX (you need to subscribe to WNXX to see this link and rest of the website)

More Sheds for the UK...
The building of a batch of Class 66s for use in the UK has been given the go ahead. Of a similar design to existing Class 66s but modified to meet current emissions regulations, 23 new locomotives are to be constructed by EMD, to be built between now and December 2014 when the emissions regulations change again. Some of these locomotives are to be used by GBRf and will be numbered in their series (probably) from 66752 upwards.

Do GBRf already have enough class 66s since 66747 - 751 could enter traffic later this year and 734 sitting on the banks on Loch Treig awaiting its future?

 

[DarloRich]

Found this on WNXX



Do GBRf already have enough class 66s since 66747 - 751 could enter traffic later this year and 734 sitting on the banks on Loch Treig awaiting its future?

you can never have enough locomotives

 

[cj_1985]

without having read the news page on WNXX nor the WNXX forum...
my guess would be upto 20x of the locos for GBRf since it was mentioned by a GBRf employee on here that they (GB) were in talks for about 20x New Build locos.
as for the remainder I would guess they would be for Colas... unlikely to be for BARS/DCR as they are not established enough yet, and we don't need/want ANOTHER Advenza Freight situation.

the big question with this order, if it happens, is where Progress Rail (EMD) will build the locos... since the last class 66 "type" loco were built at Progress Rails Muncie, Indiana Facility in 2011 , I would say there is a good chance that they would be built there... alternatively, the other best bet, since Progress Rail closed their London, Ontario(Canada) factory early last year (2012), would be La Grange, Illinois (where the first class 59s were "born")... which

Eitherway, would mean that these would be the first Class 66 locos for Europe built in the USA rather than Canada.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As per what I have posted elsewhere... for those that are interested re. 66750-66751 for GBRf.

According to http://mainlinediesels.net/index.php?na ... n=shownews
second batch of "additional" class 66s for GBRf ... namely 66750 and 66751 have been identified... the first is/was, seeming to be moved towards the UK over the weekend. It having originally having been destined for "Rush Rail" in Norway/Sweden as T664025

we talk about wastes of money on paint jobs over here... and here we have a loco all painted and (from what I read previously) overhauled/serviced for use with a new operator... and then it was left sitting to gather cobwebs.

although not as impressive as the case of 66048 whose paintjob seemed to have been a curse (in a way)

the second loco (66751) was identified as being an ex HHPI (that's the German outfit that now own 59003) class 66, No. 29006 (Which has been replaced with a loco numbered 29006).
not entirely surprising with this one since HHPI were the operator linked with the purchase of the first European Sized/loading Gauge GE Powerhaul locos last year at Innotrans... with the first of these (the loco on display) being numbered 29008, with HHPI leasing all/most of their class 66 spec locos from Beacon Rail, aswell as the delivery of the Powerhaul loco (with others expected to follow)


Both the new GB 66s seem to be of the earlier example ie. no Fifth door

 

[ryan125hst]

to be built between now and December 2014 when the emissions regulations change again.

Why are the emissions regulations changing again? It must be a nightmare for engine manufacturers and is meaning that a train is no sooner built that it is out if date. What changes are there, and why is it necessary?

 

[cj_1985]

Why are the emissions regulations changing again? It must be a nightmare for engine manufacturers and is meaning that a train is no sooner built that it is out if date. What changes are there, and why is it necessary?

and with each emissions limit change.. the engines become less economical (based on figures I read about truck engines, a mid 90s engine could give upto 14mpg, modern engines it can average at about 7mpg) and need additional addatives (those of you who work in bus or trucking will know about Ad Blu) which means more cost, the engines being less economical means you sell more fuel, which forces the price higher and higher...

the vicious circle that keep a select few people very wealthy

 

[WatcherZero]

Why are the emissions regulations changing again? It must be a nightmare for engine manufacturers and is meaning that a train is no sooner built that it is out if date. What changes are there, and why is it necessary?

Goes back more than two decades, the auto industry (and by association builders of non-road engines) were set voluntary progressivley more diffcult targets however they failed to achieve them so last decade they became mandatory targets. They know a long time in advance what they have to achieve they just tend to drag their heels and not bring out compliant designs to each level until the last minute.

 

[cj_1985]

May be of interest, Not a new build, but new to the UK...

Its being reported by "HSTHoward" on the GBRf-gen Yahoo Group that 66750 has arrived at Dollands Moor.
While there is also a picture of 66750 at Calais Frethun yesterday, on Flickr

 

[tbtc]

you can never have enough locomotives

Great news (until people realise that it may mean even more BR-era locos getting chopped up)

 

[High Dyke]

the big question with this order, if it happens, is where Progress Rail (EMD) will build the locos... since the last class 66 "type" loco were built at Progress Rails Muncie, Indiana Facility in 2011 , I would say there is a good chance that they would be built there... alternatively, the other best bet, since Progress Rail closed their London, Ontario(Canada) factory early last year (2012), would be La Grange, Illinois (where the first class 59s were "born")...

Alternatively we could always have a British company that designs and builds locomotives...in Britain. Too radical?

 

[cj_1985]

Alternatively we could always have a British company that designs and builds locomotives...in Britain. Too radical?

as has been mentioned by "Mark.enderby" on the GBRf-gen Yahoo group... the costs to set up a production line for such a small number of locos would be a non starter.

Basically, it would not be financially justifiable. It would probably be different if the number was higher, say (at a guess) about the size of the original EWS class 66 order. Especially since this should (if it happens) be the last batch of class 66 type locos ever built for UK or Europe... so the costs to set up a production line to build them here makes even less sense.

 

[Boothby97]

66750 should be on these
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K50362/2013/06/11/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R50364/2013/06/11/advanced

 

[High Dyke]

as has been mentioned by "Mark.enderby" on the GBRf-gen Yahoo group... the costs to set up a production line for such a small number of locos would be a non starter.

My comment was slightly tongue in cheek. However who said anything about small numbers? If a production line was reopened, even under licence, in this country surely that would benefit the British economy, support jobs and also mean there is a plentiful supply of spare parts for the loco's that are curently being used - without having to rely on shipping parts from across the world, when needed.

 

[cj_1985]

My comment was slightly tongue in cheek. However who said anything about small numbers? If a production line was reopened, even under licence, in this country surely that would benefit the British economy, support jobs and also mean there is a plentiful supply of spare parts for the loco's that are curently being used - without having to rely on shipping parts from across the world, when needed.

in theory setting up a production line for trains in this country for export to the rest of the world would be great... problem starts when you want to move it from the build location to wherever its going... if its for anywhere else in the world (with the exception of class 66 or 70 style locos) it would be too large for our loading gauge and would require road moves from contruction point (assuming that a test track was built at the same time and location as the production facility) to a port for export, or to an access point to allow it (if within European loading gauge) to move over HS1 and though the channel tunnel. doing that sort of thing for the class 66 style loco for Europe would require Progress Rail/EMD to invest in updating the class 66 design to meet more recent and forthcoming EU specs, but would still require a good sized starting order to justify the set up costs.

Best bet for that sort of work (contruction under license) would be for the likes of trams, since they already need to be moved by road... although I don't know why bombardier have not tried introducing that sort of work to derby.

The location of any build site would ideally need to be close to an export port... probably part of why Hitatchi are planning to built their IEP factory where they are... so its close to a port for exporting stock for Europe etc
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

66750 should be on these
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K50362/2013/06/11/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R50364/2013/06/11/advanced

and then probably forwarded on later this week/early next week T'n'T to Longport (EMD/EMSI) (as an educated guess)

 

[edwin_m]

Best bet for that sort of work (contruction under license) would be for the likes of trams, since they already need to be moved by road... although I don't know why bombardier have not tried introducing that sort of work to derby.

The Strasbourg and Nottingham trams were built (or rather assembled) at Derby by Adtranz. However when Bombardier took over they concentrated all their tram production at the Vienna factory they already owned, which has specialised in trams for a long time.

 

[cj_1985]

The Strasbourg and Nottingham trams were built (or rather assembled) at Derby by Adtranz. However when Bombardier took over they concentrated all their tram production at the Vienna factory they already owned, which has specialised in trams for a long time.

that's fair enough, I just used trams and Derby as examples due to all the concerns the other year about jobs at derby due to lack of heavy rail (inc LUL) manufacturing orders

I should also add re. the recent and forthcoming New to Uk 66s, that I find it ridiculous that in the cases of 66747-66749 and now 66750 that they (I assume a representative for GBRf) have had to get the locos "taped" up with orange tape to represent the cant rail line/limit along the body sides and cab fronts, when they were being/will be dragged D.I.T prior to being (overhauled/converted etc) repainted and entering service solo. effectively until such time as they are fit to operate on their own they are just very large, very heavy wagons... you don't see every freight vehicle/wagon or container carried on intermodal trains with a cant rail line painted on them do you.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

and then probably forwarded on later this week/early next week T'n'T to Longport (EMD/EMSI) (as an educated guess)

well I was right about 66750 being forwarded onto Longport after it have been dropped at Peterborough last night/this morning... obviously the movement happened a bit sooner than I expected...

but I was wrong about it being Top and Tailed to Longport...
all reports I've seen via "GBRf-gen" on Yahoo list the movement as being carried out by 66741

 

[GB]

Do GBRf already have enough class 66s since 66747 - 751 could enter traffic later this year and 734 sitting on the banks on Loch Treig awaiting its future?

66734 no longer belongs to GBRf. It belongs to the insurance company and has done so for at least the last 4-5 months.

NDS (network rail infrastructure) work is expected to explode for this year for and the coming years for us and the new locos are predominately focused towards that.

Final numbers and who they are going to belong to still need clarification but it is expected that around a third to a half will be owned by Groupe Eurotunnel (GBRF) and the remainder will be owned by Network Rail themselves. They will all be ERTMS fitted too.

 

[fgwrich]

So I wonder if that'll create the potential for this then (by Paul Birkitt -Gray).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/alternativerailways/4975341480/in/photostream/

 

[NightStar]

Any plans for more class 70 locomotives from GE?

Robert

 

[cj_1985]

Personally I'm very encouraged by this... provided it all works out... it will be nice to have another proper freight loco option (class 68s will be mixed traffic not pure freight) for whatever time that's left for the design to be built.... plus, the class 66 design has grown on me (I wasn't so keen on it when I just got back into being interested in railways in 2003) and I quite like it now... plus I love the sound of the 710 engine.... almost as much as I love the (or loved) the sound of the class 465/466 motors when running...

 

[Bevan Price]

NDS (network rail infrastructure) work is expected to explode for this year for and the coming years for us and the new locos are predominately focused towards that.

Final numbers and who they are going to belong to still need clarification but it is expected that around a third to a half will be owned by Groupe Eurotunnel (GBRF) and the remainder will be owned by Network Rail themselves. They will all be ERTMS fitted too.

If Network Rail wants locos, would it not be cheaper to pay DBS to re-equip some of the stored Class 60s rather than spend money on new locos ?

 

[455driver]

Network Rail do not want any locos though.

Netrwork Rail will put the work out to tender, it will be up to the winner of the tender to source the required number of locos.

 

[cj_1985]

I for one will be glad to see this order get signed... even though passenger stock is rarely ordered these days... orders for freight stock seem to happen much less frequently...

 

[cjmillsnun]

Meh... More sheds.

 

[talltim]

66751 at Peterborough. by iainy73, on Flickr

 

[cj_1985]

there are a couple of pictures on Flickr at the moment showing the new/rebuilt/converted cab on 66747, and showing the European style cab desk before conversion on 66751... quite interesting to see the differences , even though they have 2 different style cab desks as they are 2 different versions of the class 66 style loco...
66750 and 66751 being a JT42CWR, and 66747-66748 being a JT42CWRM

66747 - http://www.flickr.com/photos/jonf45sphotos/9433444347/
66751 - http://www.flickr.com/photos/jonf45sphotos/9478128321/ (both by Jonathan Francis)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On the subject... has anyone heard anything else about this order?
I know that most of the magazines have made mention of it, with tRM (iirc) saying the rumour had originated from someone in the US with an association with EMD/PR,

I only ask, as we are getting closer and closer to the reported "deadline" for construction of locos before the change in emission requirements...

 

[matchmaker]

Goes back more than two decades, the auto industry (and by association builders of non-road engines) were set voluntary progressivley more diffcult targets however they failed to achieve them so last decade they became mandatory targets. They know a long time in advance what they have to achieve they just tend to drag their heels and not bring out compliant designs to each level until the last minute.

Hence the growth of efficent, high powered turbo-petrol engines in cars (like the Ford Ecoboost) as it becomes increasingly complicated (and expensive) to make diesel engines compliant with the latest Euro Whatever requirements.

 

[Beveridges]

Strange to hear that there has been another order for 66s rather than the Powerhaul locos

 

[cj_1985]

Strange to hear that there has been another order for 66s rather than the Powerhaul locos

if the order HAS been placed... I don't find it that surprising... as has been quoted before from interviews with the MD of GBRf John Smith, they like class 66s as the fitters know them, drivers know them and the company know the locos limits...

where as he quoted the class 70s as being too expensive... and im sure the numerous fires have not encouraged many folk to try them.
Plus there could (AIUI) be issues to do with complete train lengths with class 70 hauled trains and the length of loops on the mainline and at power stations

as for Colas, I can see why they would be looking at class 70s... the ability to haul more weight, which would be handy for them to use on their log trains

the class 68/UK Lights are still unproven and are a mixed traffic design... NOT a complete Freight loco... although im sure in theory the design could be tweaked to provide a freight only option. Its been mentioned in RI that Chiltern/Arriva are waiting to see how the 68s work out before placing an order for them (if they decided to drop using class 67s)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
not sure if anyone has noticed, or cares... but the ex Dutch locos that GBRf have (66747-649) don't seem to be doing much work the last 2 weeks...

between them, they seem to move back and forwards between Peterborough, Doncaster and Tyne Dock.. seeming to rarely run under their own power.

Fair enough, Drivers and fitters need to be trained on the cab differences... but i wonder if they are not proving as reliable as hoped or if there are other operational reasons restricting their use.

and before anyone says or asks anything.. i'm not asking because i'm desperate to go out and see one of the new locos... i only ask as i'm curious

 

[CockneySparrow]

Great news (until people realise that it may mean even more BR-era locos getting chopped up)

Yes, thought there were loads of locos in sidings out of use, namely Class 56 and 60

 

[Beveridges]

plus I love the sound of the 710 engine....

The GM 710 engine does not sound as good as the GE Powerhaul.

At tickover the GM 710 is actually quite irritating. The GM 635 in the Class 57 sounds more throaty and powerful even though it's been derated.