More 321/320s for ScotRail?

[158722]

Three more 321s to 320s for ScotRail so North Berwick can go to 6-car operation with them, vice 380s?

Presumably these would be from the GN ones being displaced by the 387s. The original information was that all 12 317s would be displaced to Anglia and either 6 or 8 of the 321s, which would leave enough for ScotRail to pick up. Recent comments have been made that all 13 GN 321s would now be moving to Anglia, so who is right?

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transp...-in-more-trains-to-cut-overcrowding-1-4308327

 

[NotATrainspott]

The platforms at North Berwick have just been extended to 6x23m for the new Class 385 fleet. If 320/321s were used again on the branch I presume it would only be for the short term before the 385s arrive 'during 2018'. If more rolling stock were needed for the ECML suburban services then it would be better for Mk3 units to displace the 385s on duties around Glasgow so that they can be nearer to their Hitachi depots.

There are so many Mk3 EMUs being freed up over the next few years that I wouldn't be surprised if ScotRail did pick up a few more units. There's plenty of doubling up that can still be done in the peaks without requiring any new infrastructure, and finding stabling and depot space shouldn't be as much of a problem as it can be for the London commuter operators.

 

[SC318250]

Think it is 6 car 380 for North Berwick then 385

Which will result in a few more 314 operations on Inverclyde and a few 318/320 on Cathcart lines

Three more 321s to 320s for ScotRail so North Berwick can go to 6-car operation with them, vice 380s?

Presumably these would be from the GN ones being displaced by the 387s. The original information was that all 12 317s would be displaced to Anglia and either 6 or 8 of the 321s, which would leave enough for ScotRail to pick up. Recent comments have been made that all 13 GN 321s would now be moving to Anglia, so who is right?

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transp...-in-more-trains-to-cut-overcrowding-1-4308327

 

[158722]

Think it is 6 car 380 for North Berwick then 385

Which will result in a few more 314 operations on Inverclyde and a few 318/320 on Cathcart lines

That would make more sense, rather than the extra 320s on the North Berwicks. Presumably there are there still some odd 380 turns on Cathcart and Inverclyde which could get replaced?

 

[Clansman]

That would make more sense, rather than the extra 320s on the North Berwicks. Presumably there are there still some odd 380 turns on Cathcart and Inverclyde which could get replaced?

There's still a good few 380 diagrams on the Cathcart Circle and Lanark daily so any additional Mk3 EMUs would be ideal to free them up on that line, which could further allow 385s to be used on core routes in future.

Also, the aquirement of EMUs would also free up the DMUs which work some North Berwick and Dunbar services daily.

 

[northwichcat]

It also mentions a problem getting hold of 5 trains they were hoping to get from GWR (but GWR are not now releasing) and looking at 8 trains without toilets instead. I imagine that means they were looking at the 153s being freed up and are looking at the LO 172s in lieu.

 

[Clansman]

I'm not aware of how the leasing process works with trains but was there anyway Scotrail could of hung on to some more 156/158/170s beyond 2018, outwith the additonal 13 that will be retained?

It would atleast give some flexibility within their DMU fleet to maximise capacity throughout services which need it most.

Or was the additional DMUs from GWR just a short term solution?

 

[northwichcat]

I'm not aware of how the leasing process works with trains but was there anyway Scotrail could of hung on to some more 156/158/170s beyond 2018, outwith the 13 that have already been retained?

Arriva have signed leases for 5 x 156s, 8 x 158s and 16 x 170s for use with Northern from 2018. I don't think Scotrail can do anything to keep those units unless either Arriva or DfT arranges for there to be a sublease back or there's some new deal which benefits all 3 parties - Scotrail, Northern and the ROSCO.

Scotrail were expected to release 10 x 156s so I wonder if they were hoping to retain the other 5 x 156s and turn them in to 3 car sets by adding a 153 to each set.

 

[sd0733]

Also says that the seven 320s are temporary additions to the fleet. Surely that's not right after all the work they've ha done!

 

[Carntyne]

Be good to see more 320/4 units come up the road. They've been good additions.

 

[jopsuk]

It also mentions a problem getting hold of 5 trains they were hoping to get from GWR (but GWR are not now releasing) and looking at 8 trains without toilets instead. I imagine that means they were looking at the 153s being freed up and are looking at the LO 172s in lieu.

Were looking as far as I can tell until they realised the 172s aren't released until mid/late 2018, depending upon Class 710 delivery.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Arent the 314s being ditched soon or are there no plans as yet?

 

[Clansman]

Arent the 314s being ditched soon or are there no plans as yet?

They are going to the scrapheap when the 385s are in full service by 2019.

 

[JonathanH]

Arent the 314s being ditched soon or are there no plans as yet?

They are going to the scrapheap when the 385s are in full service by 2019.

Why do 314s still work some Wemyss Bay / Gourock services? Is it just efficient diagramming, some kind of traction knowledge retention, because they are cheaper to operate or because ScotRail doesn't like people on those lines? Surely there are enough 380s to go round.

 

[Clansman]

Why do 314s still work some Wemyss Bay / Gourock services? Is it just efficient diagramming, some kind of traction knowledge retention, because they are cheaper to operate or because ScotRail doesn't like people on those lines? Surely there are enough 380s to go round.

I'm not sure about that but the 314s only really work during peak times, so I imagine that the high density layout would be a factor as there are more seats on a 314 than a 3-car 380 - excluding standing room. Although given the number of 380s needed I wouldn't be surprised if it came down to the lack of units in the first place. By the time the 314s are replaced, there will be enough 380s to go around Inverclyde as the 385s will have displaced them on North Berwick/Dunbar duties, as well as the small minority which crop up on the Cathcart Circle.

 

[Carntyne]

Why do 314s still work some Wemyss Bay / Gourock services? Is it just efficient diagramming, some kind of traction knowledge retention, because they are cheaper to operate or because ScotRail doesn't like people on those lines? Surely there are enough 380s to go round.

They'll run on the Inverclyde's because they need to. There's not enough 380s to go round.

 

[380101]

I'm not sure about that but the 314s only really work during peak times, so I imagine that the high density layout would be a factor as there are more seats on a 314 than a 3-car 380 - excluding standing room. Although given the number of 380s needed I wouldn't be surprised if it came down to the lack of units in the first place. By the time the 314s are replaced, there will be enough 380s to go around Inverclyde as the 385s will have displaced them on North Berwick/Dunbar duties, as well as the small minority which crop up on the Cathcart Circle.

318/320 on Inverclyde diagrams from Monday. Also on all Lanarks from GLC high level. Newton's, Neilston and Cathcart Circle diagrams aswell.

UPDATE: 318 and 320 on Lanarks and Cathcart and Newton diagrams. More 314s for Inverclyde. No 318 or 320 on Inverclyde runs. I miss read the notice.

 

[gsnedders]

318/320 on Inverclyde diagrams from Monday. Also on all Lanarks from GLC high level. Newton's, Neilston and Cathcart Circle diagrams aswell.

Where is the stock coming from? What affect does this have north of the Clyde?

 

[380101]

Where is the stock coming from? What affect does this have north of the Clyde?

No Idea and no idea! Just read it on notice at Glasgow Central earlier this evening.

 

[Clansman]

318/320 on Inverclyde diagrams from Monday. Also on all Lanarks from GLC high level. Newton's, Neilston and Cathcart Circle diagrams aswell.

What's happening with the 314s displaced from the Circle?

Or are the upcoming 318/320 diagrams replacing the 380s entirely on that route?

 

[NotATrainspott]

Where is the stock coming from? What affect does this have north of the Clyde?

Most, if not all, of the 320/4s are now in service. Extending the North Berwick runs to 6 car will free up some 4 car 380s which could be used when a 3 car 380 is just not enough but a 6 car has too much capacity.

 

[swt class 450]

Why have Abellio Scotrail reduced the trains from four coaches to three coaches and put one coach from each unit in to storage? It just seems like such a waste when they could keep the units as they are and improve capacity even more. Surely if short platforms are an issue than they can just install SDO or extend the platforms?

 

[380101]

Why have Abellio Scotrail reduced the trains from four coaches to three coaches and put one coach from each unit in to storage? It just seems like such a waste when they could keep the units as they are and improve capacity even more. Surely if short platforms are an issue than they can just install SDO or extend the platforms?

that would mean using SDO at every platform on the routes 320s work if running as a 7. Cheaper to shorten the 321s to 320s than extend platforms or retrofit SDO to 20 odd year old trains.
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Most, if not all, of the 320/4s are now in service. Extending the North Berwick runs to 6 car will free up some 4 car 380s which could be used when a 3 car 380 is just not enough but a 6 car has too much capacity.

Not going to run 320s to North Berwick. Still going to be 380s. The 320s and 318s will free up 380s from the Lanark, Newton/Neilston and Cathcart Circle routes which will allow 6 car 380s on other routes including North Berwick.

 

[NotATrainspott]

that would mean using SDO at every platform on the routes 320s work if running as a 7. Cheaper to shorten the 321s to 320s than extend platforms or retrofit SDO to 20 odd year old trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Not going to run 320s to North Berwick. Still going to be 380s. The 320s and 318s will free up 380s from the Lanark, Newton/Neilston and Cathcart Circle routes which will allow 6 car 380s on other routes including North Berwick.

I know - I interpreted the question about where the stock was going to come from as referring to the additional 318/320 turns on current 380 routes.

 

[Southsider]

Why have Abellio Scotrail reduced the trains from four coaches to three coaches and put one coach from each unit in to storage? It just seems like such a waste when they could keep the units as they are and improve capacity even more. Surely if short platforms are an issue than they can just install SDO or extend the platforms?

I believe even the shortest platforms can accommodate 6x20m carriages so 4 is not a problem but 7 or 8 is. There is a large number of peak time services that run as overcrowded 3 car. Replacing them with 4 and 6 car by keeping the new ones as 4s and doubling up the original 3s would seem beneficial but I'm sure there's much more to it than that.

 

[Carntyne]

I believe even the shortest platforms can accommodate 6x20m carriages so 4 is not a problem but 7 or 8 is. There is a large number of peak time services that run as overcrowded 3 car. Replacing them with 4 and 6 car by keeping the new ones as 4s and doubling up the original 3s would seem beneficial but I'm sure there's much more to it than that.

Running more 6 car sets by taking a carriage out of the 321 fleet that has come North is even more beneficial.

 

[Southsider]

Running more 6 car sets by taking a carriage out of the 321 fleet that has come North is even more beneficial.

I'm struggling with the logic as it involves throwing away a carriage worth of capacity every time.

 

[gsnedders]

I'm struggling with the logic as it involves throwing away a carriage worth of capacity every time.

The status quo is that not all services on-peak are six-car trains, some being operated by three-car trains.

If you get four-car trains, you can replace the three-car on-peak services with four-car ones. If you get three-car trains, you can extend the three-car on peak services to six-car ones.

The time which really matters is the peaks because that's when the largest amount of stock is in use. Sure, some four-car would be nice between peaks, but you can always run them as six-cars with better capacity in the peaks.

 

[route101]

320s on the Inverclyde , is that a first?
318s must be 2011 last time that happened
318s have been on the Circle , Newton and Neilstons
320s ive only been on one between Newton and Central non stop via Maxwell Park.

 

[gsnedders]

320s on the Inverclyde , is that a first?

Wikipedia claims:

[They] were occasionally used for VIP trips from the high-level platforms of Glasgow Central when they were the newest EMU stock in the SPT fleet.

Uncited, but seems not implausible.