Moral dilemma - friends using invalid tickets.

[dvboy]

Yesterday four of us took a train journey from Wolverhampton to Birmingham. Two of us with valid tickets (one of them being me), the other two not travelling on valid tickets as one was using a day ticket dated for the day before, and the other using a ticket that didn't cover the zone we were travelling from.

The two of us with the valid tickets made it plainly clear (and within earshot of other passengers) that we didn't approve, but our friends said they didn't care and carried on regardless, their point being they never get checked anyway. We weren't going to fall out over it so we left it at that.

We didn't get ticket checked on the train as it was a busy CrossCountry service, and my friend with the incorrectly dated ticket even got through the manual barriers at New Street, and managed to use it on a bus too. The friend travelling out of zone has regularly done so before, and also travelled with us to Liverpool and back without scratching the date off a complimentary LM day ticket, so he could get another use out of it (again, wasn't checked at all in either direction).

Part of me wanted them to both get caught out... and if they carry on doing this, one day they will be (as I told them)... but what would you do? Also, by travelling with them, could we be implicated in any action despite ourselves travelling on valid tickets?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

It's their problem if they want to use invalid tickets. Don't get involved.

 

[Eagle]

Also, by travelling with them, could we be implicated in any action despite ourselves travelling on valid tickets?

No. It's not like you could have stopped them anyway.

 

[Temple Meads]

It's their problem if they want to use invalid tickets. Don't get involved.

This. If they persist they're bound to get caught sooner or later anyway.

That manual gateline at New Street seems to let anything on orange stock through

 

[Eagle]

That manual gateline at New Street seems to let anything on orange stock through

Or anything in a ticket wallet.

 

[Flamingo]

Just remind them, they have to get lucky all the time, we only have to get lucky once.

If I was you, I'd sit in a different carriage from them, you don't want to become collateral damage if an irate TM decides to kick the whole group off regardless (if they did act in a way that would make him fear for his safety)...

 

[bb21]

I agree with the sentiment expressed by others. Don't get involved.

You can't be implicated as you have no obligation to know what tickets they are travelling on. They will have no sympathy from me when (not if) they eventually get caught.

Unfortunately if a TOC decides that it is not worth their investment to have an effective revenue protection system in place, then they have to accept that the less than scrupulous of the society will take maximum advantage they can. It is not the job of a fellow passenger to help the company protect revenue.

 

[MarieMew]

Don't get involved with this; you know it's wrong, you abide by the law, and therefore you know you're doing the right thing.

Just think, one day they'll get caught with this, and be landed with a hefty standard fare fine. And if they refuse to pay, it's going to cost them even more.

 

[b0b]

if an irate TM decides to kick the whole group off regardless (if they did act in a way that would make him fear for his safety)...

wait, that would be ridiculous, why would a TM kick off somebody with what the TM knew to be a perfectly valid ticket?

 

[bb21]

wait, that would be ridiculous, why would a TM kick off somebody with what the TM knew to be a perfectly valid ticket?

Notice the words in the brackets.

 

[Flamingo]

wait, that would be ridiculous, why would a TM kick off somebody with what the TM knew to be a perfectly valid ticket?

If I'm on my own on a train, if some of a group is causing trouble or acting in a way that would make me fear for my or others safety, I'm not going to cherry-pick who I get removed once I have backup, as I have no way of knowing how their friends will act once the train leaves and I'm on my own with them, and they are now blaming me for having their friends nicked.

Many years ago, I was picked up by police as I was standing with a group, some of whom had committed some criminal damage. I was released when the guys who did the damage admitted to it, and told police that the others in the group had nothing to do with it. When I told this to a friend's father, who was an old policeman, he told me that what I should have done was walked away as soon as they started messing, as then I would have been a hundred yards or so away when the police turned up, and they would not have been interested in me. Same principle applies.

 

[snail]

Here's a tale from yesterday. A group of 'lads' boarded my train at Hindley. On the way to Wigan (next and final stop) one of the group was boasting loudly about how they could use the lift to avoid the manual barrier. By the time I got to the top of the stairs at least 3 people had pointed this out to the gateline staff and there was a large gentleman in a Northern uniform waiting for the lift to arrive.

Sadly, I had a train to catch from North Western so I couldn't hang around to see what happened. Hopefully they will be £80 poorer in a few weeks and learn the lesson that fare dodging is neither clever nor profitable.

 

[jon0844]

Maybe he'll be posting on here shortly!

 

[mullin]

Never in my life have I seen that lift blocked... actually, slight lie... when they had the refurb taking place and the 'ticket office' was a table on the platform, to get on the platform you needed a ticket. The amount of people using the lift to fare dodge is unreal.

 

[MCW]

Don't get involved. you have already let your point of view and advice be shown to them and they are choosing to ignore it, so as far as I am concerned, if they get caught then you don't bail them out, their fault pure and simple. I would do thatwith anyof my mates even my best mate if it happened. But I wouldn't fall out over it.

 

[Squaddie]

Part of me wanted them to both get caught out... and if they carry on doing this, one day they will be (as I told them)... but what would you do?

Get some new friends. You choose your friends, and I would want nothing to do with people who behaved in this way.

 

[455driver]

Get some new friends. You choose your friends, and I would want nothing to do with people who behaved in this way.

i would wait until they get caught then you can say "see I told you so".

 

[Starmill]

Or anything in a ticket wallet.

Or nothing in a ticket wallet?

 

[Qwerty133]

That manual gateline at New Street seems to let anything on orange stock through

No it doesn't, last year they questioned mine and my sisters age and then wanted to know why we weren't at school (while advising that less drivers than normal were working overtime due to it being half term)

 

[SWT_USER]

Interesting thread. I think people on this board take perceive far more seriously than the general public. I would even suggest that most people (in London at least) think that the worst that will happen if they are caught is a 20 pound fine.

I have a colleague (my boss in fact) who bunks the train every day (2 ungated stations in the London area on FGW's patch). He carries an Oyster card so will try and blag it saying I thought I touched in etc etc. Realistically he is NEVER going to be challenged/ punished given the stations he travels between, if challenged at a station he would simply run and I doubt any staff would give chase as it's presumably frowned upon by the TOC. As a result he saves himself a shed load of cash each year.

Another friend, a teacher, commutes from Clapham Junction to an ungated station in Zone 6. He buys a zone 2 travelcard to get through the barrier at Clapham Junction and doesn't touch out at the other end. Again realistically he is NEVER going to be challenged. On the way out he's fine as long as he has some PAYG credit on his Oyster and on the way home given the route he travels there are not going to be inspectors on the train, the worst that will happen to him is a penalty fare - and as he saves himself over 1000 pounds a year he'd still be comfortably in profit.

Another used to commute from a SWT station just outside zone 6 to a London Overground station. He used to bunk all the way until they put barriers in at his destination then he started to buy a season ticket.

I'm wouldn't say I have dodgy friends, just that most people think the worst that can happen when caught is a 20 pound penalty fare. Most of the time they'd be right too, especially on the smaller/ counter peak flows.

 

[jb]

Interesting thread. I think people on this board take perceive far more seriously than the general public. I would even suggest that most people (in London at least) think that the worst that will happen if they are caught is a 20 pound fine.

Hence a million threads on here when people who do get caught squeal like nothing even though they're bang to rights.

 

[jon0844]

The problem these days is that so many otherwise law-abiding people simply don't consider it a crime to fare evade. They're convinced the evil money grabbing TOCs don't deserve to make such huge profits, and that there's no real victim as they're not stealing an actual product.

These are no doubt the same people that would exaggerate an insurance claim too, on the basis that they've paid so much for insurance to date that they deserve to get it back.

As such, I bet almost everyone has friends that would do this given half a chance (and how would you know they're doing it unless they tell you or you spot it?).

The best thing is to wait until they are caught, although you'll probably be expected to sympathise with them and also moan about the evil money grabbing b**tards that are acting like total jobsworths by taking someone to court over a 'fare of a few quid'.

 

[SWT_USER]

The problem these days is that so many otherwise law-abiding people simply don't consider it a crime to fare evade. They're convinced the evil money grabbing TOCs don't deserve to make such huge profits, and that there's no real victim as they're not stealing an actual product.

These are no doubt the same people that would exaggerate an insurance claim too, on the basis that they've paid so much for insurance to date that they deserve to get it back.

As such, I bet almost everyone has friends that would do this given half a chance (and how would you know they're doing it unless they tell you or you spot it?).

The best thing is to wait until they are caught, although you'll probably be expected to sympathise with them and also moan about the evil money grabbing b**tards that are acting like total jobsworths by taking someone to court over a 'fare of a few quid'.

This is the thing, they are very, very unlikely to be caught on those journeys. The TOC care about the London revenue and thats it.

I agree with the rest of your post though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hence a million threads on here when people who do get caught squeal like nothing even though they're bang to rights.

Usually from people who've talked themselves in to trouble though, if you shut up and pay the 20 quid you'll be fine.

 

[bb21]

Chasing after real fare dodgers (not the casual ones) costs money and takes a concerted effort. The current system doesn't exact give the TOCs a big incentive to do that.

 

[swj99]

Moral dilemma - friends using invalid tickets.

If you haven't got anything more serious to worry about, I'd say you're doing quite well.

 

[jon0844]

Chasing after real fare dodgers (not the casual ones) costs money and takes a concerted effort. The current system doesn't exact give the TOCs a big incentive to do that.

True. Given by the time it goes to court, the chances of recovering all the costs associated with a lengthy investigation and evidence gathering is probably quite slim.

It seems to me that the current trick of catching someone as a one off, then using Byelaw 18 to bypass the £20 PF scheme and then ask for £80+ to keep it out of court makes a lot more money for TOCs. It's certainly a lot quicker and being an absolute offence, doesn't really allow for much of a defence or appeal.

Monitoring an habitual fare evader suddenly sounds like a waste of time, unless the TOC is tipped off and believes such an investigation might be relatively easy (and cheap). Not that I'd suggest grassing up your friends is a good idea in case it comes out that they were tipped off.

 

[Flamingo]

Chasing after real fare dodgers (not the casual ones) costs money and takes a concerted effort. The current system doesn't exact give the TOCs a big incentive to do that.

Dealing with a fare evader can cause delays if they are found on-train (as quite often the only option is to try and remove them from the train for station-based staff to process them), incident forms if they get aggressive to staff (which often happens), and complaints which get logged as black marks against the TOC (and relevant manager) when the "law abiding" passenger complains "I was treated like a criminal by your rude jobs-worth guard/RPI/ gate staff".

BTP are not interested in ticket issues of any type, personally I think this is following representation from management, to avoid trains being delayed by Guards calling them for fare evaders.

Delays, complaints and incident forms all are hassle for a manager, and causes them grief. So any member of staff who causes them will be frowned upon, and "quiet chats" will be had, with the threat of more official action if the words of advice are ignored.

So, the way the system is set up, there is no incentive for staff to catch fare-dodgers, as, if they are sitting quietly, or just allowed to walk out, they will not feature on any managers figures, but the consequences of dealing with them causes work. So managers want us to leave fare-dodgers alone, if they are not causing a problem.

The odd "operation" is carried out, when it either gets too blatant at any particular station to ignore, or some PR is required, but from a day-to-day point of view, if we just walk through, being visible, clipping whatever we get handed and ignoring the issues, we are doing what is asked of us.

 

[sheff1]

The problem these days is that so many otherwise law-abiding people simply don't consider it a crime to fare evade. They're convinced the evil money grabbing TOCs don't deserve to make such huge profits.

Delays, complaints and incident forms all are hassle for a manager, and causes them grief. So any member of staff who causes them will be frowned upon, and "quiet chats" will be had, with the threat of more official action if the words of advice are ignored.

So, the way the system is set up, there is no incentive to catch fare-dodgers as, if they are sitting quietly, they will not feature on any managers figures, but the consequences of dealing with them causes work. So managers want us to leave fare-dodgers alone, if they are not causing a problem.

I have nothing to add.