Moorgate- Farringdon Thameslink

[Simon11]

Hi

I've been wondering, what will ever happen to the TL line between Moorgate-Farringdon? Seems rather pointless leave it there to rot?

I thought you could:-
Reopen the lines for London Underground, with some Circle services or Met trains leaving the main line and going on the relief lines at Farringdon travelling to Moorgate. A bonus would be that it would slightly easy congestion.
Another option could be to turn it into a road tunnel? No idea if this would work. Remove the rails, build a road and link it to the main road network?

Whats your views?

 

[Max]

Reopen the lines for London Underground, with some Circle services or Met trains leaving the main line and going on the relief lines at Farringdon travelling to Moorgate. A bonus would be that it would slightly easy congestion.

How would it ease congestion? It's such a short section that allowing trains to cross to the ex-TL lines would surely just make congestion worse.

 

[Simon11]

You managed to shoot down my idea(Althought the only issue would be East bound trains having to cross the West bound tracks).

It seems pointless to leave these tracks, in the current state. Sell them off for housing?

 

[tbtc]

It seems pointless to leave these tracks, in the current state. Sell them off for housing?

Plenty abandoned subterranean lines in London (Piccadilly line to Aldwych, Jubilee line to Charing Cross etc). Not sure I'd want to live down there though...

 

[NSE]

I agree its a waste, but there isn't that much they can do. Maybe extend the Circle line sidings a bit if theres room, or extend the underground tracks so the bay platforms at Moorgate run through the old TL platforms at Barbican. Again don't know the feasability of this, just thoughts. Also Maybe a single track off the TL into a siding incase of failure to change power at Farringdon. However they did extend electrification to City Thameslink on OHL should a train fail to swap.
I can't think of much else that the area could be used for. Mind you there isn't that much left to 'rot' anyway all the OHL equipment has been taken down and I believe that tracks taken up.

Mind you if Kings Cross Thameslink is anything to go by, it'll just be left to rot as you said.

 

[LE Greys]

Hi

I've been wondering, what will ever happen to the TL line between Moorgate-Farringdon? Seems rather pointless leave it there to rot?

I thought you could:-
Reopen the lines for London Underground, with some Circle services or Met trains leaving the main line and going on the relief lines at Farringdon travelling to Moorgate. A bonus would be that it would slightly easy congestion.
Another option could be to turn it into a road tunnel? No idea if this would work. Remove the rails, build a road and link it to the main road network?

Whats your views?

Cutting back the Aldgate service to Moorgate would cause problems at Liverpool Street, but it's one possible use. Personally, I'd have abandoned the Snow Hill Tunnel altogether and cut a new one from St Pancras to Blackfriars, recycling the Moorgate section as an extension of the Euston d.c. lines.

 

[12CSVT]

The trackbed between Farringdon and Barbican is now used for what looks like an access road for works vehicles for Crossrail / Thameslink upgrade work

 

[LE Greys]

I agree its a waste, but there isn't that much they can do. Maybe extend the Circle line sidings a bit if theres room, or extend the underground tracks so the bay platforms at Moorgate run through the old TL platforms at Barbican. Again don't know the feasability of this, just thoughts. Also Maybe a single track off the TL into a siding incase of failure to change power at Farringdon. However they did extend electrification to City Thameslink on OHL should a train fail to swap.

I wonder why they did that and did not take down the OHL, replacing it with 3rd rail as far as St Pancras. It would have allowed them to use St Pancras as a turnback point for d.c.-only trains while they connected Thameslink to the ECML. It would also take away the problem of reduced clearances in the tunnels, particularly King's Cross Thameslink.

 

[NSE]

Yeah I agree, St Pancras would make a much more logical place to swap, especially now seeing as failed trains can't take to the Moorgate branch like they used to.
Although how would it connect to the Euston DC lines? If your new tunnel was bored I reckon I'd have kept Moorgate and run Moorgate-Barbican-Farringdon-St. P-NLL and then onto Willesden Junction-Richmond or up to Watford Junction via Primrose Hill. (if thats how you also imagined the Euston Lines?)

 

[LE Greys]

Yeah I agree, St Pancras would make a much more logical place to swap, especially now seeing as failed trains can't take to the Moorgate branch like they used to.
Although how would it connect to the Euston DC lines? If your new tunnel was bored I reckon I'd have kept Moorgate and run Moorgate-Barbican-Farringdon-St. P-NLL and then onto Willesden Junction-Richmond or up to Watford Junction via Primrose Hill. (if thats how you also imagined the Euston Lines?)

Fairly simply, the Thameslink tunnel would take a dive from the current St Pancras station box, pass under the Circle Line, then head down Gray's Inn Road, with a station about half-way along, somewhere around Guildford Street, then a second at Chancery Lane to connect with the Central Line. It would then take a couple of shortcuts under buildings, but run roughly along Shoe Lane until it passed under New Bridge Street and climbed to connect to Blackfriars. I considered passing under the Thames and surfacing somewhere around the Borough Market area, but that would push costs up. The new tunnel would be designed for a running speed of 60 mph throughout, thus making it quicker to cross London. The old connection to City Thameslink would still exist, somehow, and it would become the main terminus for Southeastern services coming into Blackfriars. The Euston line would be accessed from King's Cross Thameslink by continuing alongside the Circle Line, thus severing the KXT-StP connection entirely, and roughly following the Northern Line City Branch, with a station at Camden Town, then connecting to the existing line at Primrose Hill, and thus to South Hampstead Tunnel. It would also provide a convenient route from the WCML right through the middle of London, although I would only expect that to be used by freight from Wembley Yard in the middle of the night.

 

[Furrball]

The track from about where the Farringdon sidings are through to Moorgate has not been lifted. There was talk of slewing the Farringdon sidings to connect with the ex Moorgate lines to provide additional stabling for the S-Stock.

Moving the changeover from AC-DC on TL from Farringdon to StP would make little difference as you still sit within the two track section of the line. If changeovers could be made on the move it would have been more logical to have extended the 3rd rail to Kentish Town where you have a relatively lightly used 4 platform station (2 platforms in use for majority of services, 1 platform for the KTN terminators and P4 not really used - although this is due to a lack of crossover into the cross London lines I believe). This would give plenty of scope for services to be able to bypass a unit that failed on power transfer

 

[b0b]

I think its more surprising the AC wasn't extended through Blackfriars. It would seem that there was plenty of space south of Blackfriars that could have had AC sidings for failed AC to DC transfers and I believe the AC would have been useful for the climb required from City Thameslink to Blackfriars.

Then possibly the Smithfield sidings/City Thameslink crossover could have been used for failed DC to AC transfers?

thinking about it more: would there have been a possibility of having a bi-directional track between the through platforms that could have connections to both through tracks, allowing bypassing of failed units stuck at Blackfriars?

Anyway people smarter than us have already figured this all out I expect

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Hi

I've been wondering, what will ever happen to the TL line between Moorgate-Farringdon? Seems rather pointless leave it there to rot?

I thought you could:-
Reopen the lines for London Underground, with some Circle services or Met trains leaving the main line and going on the relief lines at Farringdon travelling to Moorgate....

It does seem rather wasteful, however, the (westbound) former 'Moorgate Down' line has only a two-three coach platform at Barbican and AFAIK no passenger access.

....Also Maybe a single track off the TL into a siding incase of failure to change power at Farringdon. However they did extend electrification to City Thameslink on OHL should a train fail to swap.
....

....Mind you if Kings Cross Thameslink is anything to go by, it'll just be left to rot as you said.

The branch was lost because the platforms need to be long enough for 12 coach trains, I doubt a siding would have the neccesary room and even if there is the room, it is a pretty pointless exercise.

Kings Cross TL could be useful if there is a need to evacuate between St Pancras and Farringdon....aqpparently....

Yeah I agree, St Pancras would make a much more logical place to swap, especially now seeing as failed trains can't take to the Moorgate branch like they used to....

St Pancras would have no benefit, there are no turnback facilities to my knowledge. Farringdon has a crossover for trains arriving from the south to return to the south (and close access to LUL platforms for Kings Cross/St Pancras, and City has a cross over for trains arriving from the north to return to the north (short walk to Blackfriars and St Pauls LUL stations). Even Blackfriars/City has (or atleast had) facilities to reverse on route (Apothecary Junction).

Given the status of the electrical arrangements at thetime the work started, Farringdon/City is the most logical place to swap over.

 

[Smoggy]

St Pancras would have no benefit, there are no turnback facilities to my knowledge.

New crossovers have been installed and wired the other weekend just north of St Pancras Low Level Station to allow trains to turn back. The main benefit will be for trains arriving from the north when the 'core' route towards Farringdon is under possession so trains can terminate at St Pancras Low Level and not High Level as they currently do.

The Moorgate branch was stripped of all the OLE once the line shut, to avoid it being nicked. I believe the track will remain in situ due to not being cost effective to remove it.

 

[cle]

I always thought it could be used for making Barbican a terminus.

So the island platform at Barbican becomes 2 terminal platforms. The old westbound Thameslink platform (which was disused for years) becomes the through westbound platform from Moorgate.

The eastbound through SSL platform remains so. Using the island as 2 terminating platforms (for Wimbleware ideally, and some Mets) would mean no conflicts - unlike terminating at Moorgate today.

This would enable HSK/Notting Hill etc to Baker St, Kings Cross and Farringdon direct journeys again, and Barbican will have Crossrail so not be such a terrible place to terminate.

It's similar to the platform layout at Edgware Road essentially, two inner terminating platforms - but with only one island. It'd help the Edgware Road delays more, and hopefully not cost too much. The westbound through platform at Barbican would be pricey though.

 

[jopsuk]

Would there be the capacity available for the Wimbleware trains between Baker Street and Barbican?
The Circle terminating at Edgeware Road confuses things with this plan too- would you have it run to Barbican as well? Would look quite "special" on the map- a five-line thick section, with colours from top to bottom being Pink-Yellow-Maroon-Green-Yellow.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think its more surprising the AC wasn't extended through Blackfriars. It would seem that there was plenty of space south of Blackfriars that could have had AC sidings for failed AC to DC transfers and I believe the AC would have been useful for the climb required from City Thameslink to Blackfriars.

The original plan was to have the changeover area extending through to somewhere south of Blackfriars, but the (electrical) proximity to the SE lines into Charing Cross meant that a significant additional area would have to be dual AC/DC immunised.

The chosen solution provides two places in each direction for changeover to be attempted, and retains the Smithfield sidings for 8 car DC>AC failures...

The advantage of AC over DC power supplies at the City T/L climb is irrelevant at such low speeds, I would have thought.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Also Maybe a single track off the TL into a siding incase of failure to change power at Farringdon.

There is no room for a siding - the 12 car platforms extend all the way to the Snow Hill tunnel mouth on both sides. This is the main reason the branch was closed...

 

[cle]

Would there be the capacity available for the Wimbleware trains between Baker Street and Barbican?
The Circle terminating at Edgeware Road confuses things with this plan too- would you have it run to Barbican as well? Would look quite "special" on the map- a five-line thick section, with colours from top to bottom being Pink-Yellow-Maroon-Green-Yellow.

No I think the Circle line terminating at Edgware Road would be best. If platform and signals allowed, you could also run some Edgware Road - Hammersmith shuttle services instead to boost service.

I thought the Paddington rebuild should have included a third central H&C platform. You won't need the Greenford one anymore, post-Crossrail.

 

[swt_passenger]

It's similar to the platform layout at Edgware Road essentially, two inner terminating platforms - but with only one island. It'd help the Edgware Road delays more, and hopefully not cost too much. The westbound through platform at Barbican would be pricey though.

I agree this layout does give operational advantages, and I think the main difficulties are definitely between Moorgate and Barbican, getting the west bound line over to the south of the formation is only possible if the tunnels are completely rebuilt, and they are through the foundations of surfacce buildings. I don't think it can be easily done in the length of Moorgate station either, as it is a 6 track width. The most practical solution is probably long sidings right through Barbican to Moorgate for extra overnight stabling...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No I think the Circle line terminating at Edgware Road would be best.

The problem with anything else (such as jopsuk's suggestion) is that following the eventual SSR resignalling the frequency between Baker St and Aldgate is already planned to be 32 tph, so there's just no possibility of extending the District or terminating Circle trains east. There is a low frequency section (16 tph) between Edgware Rd and Baker St as now - because the only possibility for reversing is at Edgware Rd.

 

[Snapper]

I'm afraid all this sounds like a wish to find a use for an old trackbed without actually thinking about what it really offers or what it will actually cost.

VFM anyone?

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm afraid all this sounds like a wish to find a use for an old trackbed without actually thinking about what it really offers or what it will actually cost.

VFM anyone?

Well many posters here completely disregard costs - in this instance LU stabling is almost the only practical possibility...

 

[cle]

I agree this layout does give operational advantages, and I think the main difficulties are definitely between Moorgate and Barbican, getting the west bound line over to the south of the formation is only possible if the tunnels are completely rebuilt, and they are through the foundations of surfacce buildings. I don't think it can be easily done in the length of Moorgate station either, as it is a 6 track width. The most practical solution is probably long sidings right through Barbican to Moorgate for extra overnight stabling...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



The problem with anything else (such as jopsuk's suggestion) is that following the eventual SSR resignalling the frequency between Baker St and Aldgate is already planned to be 32 tph, so there's just no possibility of extending the District or terminating Circle trains east. There is a low frequency section (16 tph) between Edgware Rd and Baker St as now - because the only possibility for reversing is at Edgware Rd.

Good point. The only way I could see that would be works similar to Blackfriars but more dramatic - demolishing the old Thameslink platforms at Moorgate and having a diagonal / curved platform winding over to the southern most track! But it'd be quite odd.

 

[philjo]

LU stabling/sidings seems the best bet or at least using some of the space for widening the circle line platforms at Barbican which are a bit narrow in places & the station will be connected in to the Farringdon crossrail interchange. An island platform westbound might help even out the H&C/circle/met line services & let an empty one run ahead of a full one at peak times (or allow a faulty train to be held back)

An alternative if it is feasible is a possible future DLR extension from Bank to Moorgate, Barbican & terminate at Farringdon. Don't know whether the current DLR layout at Bank would allow this or not. The DLR has some pretty tight curves/gradients elsewhere.
Also don't know if crossrail at Moorgate would block the path.

 

[cle]

I think the DLR wouldn't be able to stop at Moorgate, so would have to run directly to Barbican and Farringdon.

At least, using the island as as Mansion House/Tower Hill would give some operational advantages and be cheaper than fully commissioning four platforms.

On the other hand, widening the island over the old eastbound Thameslink track would be better for Crossrail access (stairs or lifts underground etc...)

 

[LE Greys]

Well many posters here completely disregard costs - in this instance LU stabling is almost the only practical possibility...

I will admit that my idea would cost about the same as Crossrail, but that was because it would deliver the equivalent, if not more.

1. Moorgate Branch reopened
2. 60 mph trains through the heart of London
3. A four-platform terminus under St Pancras (with some digging and an extra crossover at the south end)
4. A direct link from Watford Junction to Moorgate, with the possibility of WCML suburban trains running through in the peaks
5. A possible freight route
6. The revival of King's Cross Thameslink

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

An alternative if it is feasible is a possible future DLR extension from Bank to Moorgate, Barbican & terminate at Farringdon. Don't know whether the current DLR layout at Bank would allow this or not. The DLR has some pretty tight curves/gradients elsewhere.
Also don't know if crossrail at Moorgate would block the path.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the DLR faces directly into the side of the Waterloo & City platforms. I've often thought about extending it to Waterloo, but going to Farringdon seems to have equal merit. With the usual DLR-style climb, it could terminate 20 ft above the Thameslink platforms if necessary.

 

[tbtc]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the DLR faces directly into the side of the Waterloo & City platforms. I've often thought about extending it to Waterloo, but going to Farringdon seems to have equal merit. With the usual DLR-style climb, it could terminate 20 ft above the Thameslink platforms if necessary.

There was something in one of the railway magazines recently suggesting a DLR extension from Bank to Kings Cross via Farringdon and Euston (bit complicated!)

 

[NSE]

There is no room for a siding - the 12 car platforms extend all the way to the Snow Hill tunnel mouth on both sides. This is the main reason the branch was closed...

I know the platforms have been lengthened, but I didn't know if room was able for one small track onwards toward Barbican.

I guess Underground sidings are the best bet.

 

[robertclark125]

What about using it as a branch from Blackfriars and city thameslink? it was a triangular junction at one time.

 

[b0b]

What about using it as a branch from Blackfriars and city thameslink? it was a triangular junction at one time.

probably not worth it if you already have the smithfield sidings

 

[NSE]

What about using it as a branch from Blackfriars and city thameslink? it was a triangular junction at one time.

I think it would be a good idea to do that, and keep the original layout and intergrate it into London Overground. That would have been my idea from the outset.