Modifying an excess ticket?

[Merseysider]

I've got a West Kirby - Salford Crescent off peak return and on the return portion got it zero fare excessed to Kirkby (Merseyside) (no direct trains from Salford to Kirkby in the evening - normally travel to West Kirby via Wigan & Kirkby). Would it be possible to have this ticket excessed again as my journey plans have changed to travel to Broad Green for example, or another station in the Liverpool ticketing group?

 

[Sleepy]

No reason why not - no need to show 1st excess ?

 

[bb21]

Where are you actually going and which way do you intend to go?

 

[Merseysider]

Journey to be made: SLD - WIG - BGE - LIV - WKI.

Original ticket is SLD - WKI any permitted, which would allow this, but excess stapled on top (which I can't remove without badly damaging the original ticket) is SLD - KIR any permitted.

The reason for the excess already being there is that I always travel back to Kirkby but if I go in the evening, my only option is via Liverpool to Kirkby, which the original ticket wouldn't allow, so I excess each ticket automatically upon buying it because clerks willing to do it in Manchester are few and far between.

So would any clerk excess the already excessed ticket or do I need to buy a new one?

 

[reb0118]

........(which I can't remove without badly damaging the original ticket).......

Just a thought but you may be able to use a penknife or similar to prise open the staple. I do this all the time to advance tickets with the reservation coupon stapled to them as they won't pass through the automatic barrier that way ~ I use a Victornox Swisstool - I find the wee chisel works best.

All that should be left on the original ticket are the two wee staple holes.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Journey to be made: SLD - WIG - BGE - LIV - WKI.

Original ticket is SLD - WKI any permitted, which would allow this, but excess stapled on top (which I can't remove without badly damaging the original ticket) is SLD - KIR any permitted.

The reason for the excess already being there is that I always travel back to Kirkby but if I go in the evening, my only option is via Liverpool to Kirkby, which the original ticket wouldn't allow, so I excess each ticket automatically upon buying it because clerks willing to do it in Manchester are few and far between.

So would any clerk excess the already excessed ticket or do I need to buy a new one?

Depends who you come across and their understanding of the rules. I suspect most guards would not be too bothered about the excess fare in this case.

 

[Merseysider]

That's a nice idea, I'm sure I have a Swiss knife lying around somewhere. So problem solved, but out of interest is there a limit to the amount of times a ticket can be excessed? I'm just imagining buying one ticket and slowly but surely adding zero fare excess after excess to it, one station at a time, so it eventually covers the whole of the UK
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And thanks hairyhandedfool, I'm travelling tomorrow so I'll just have to see if it works

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Oh, btw, if you are getting that as an excess on a regular basis, the clerk(s) that is/are doing it need retraining, some on the forum might suggest a strongly worded letter to the relevant TOC asking for confirmation that they will be retrained as a top priority.

 

[bb21]

I must be slow because I still struggle to understand what you are actually doing.

Are you intending to do Salford Crescent - West Kirby - Kirkby, or are you just wanting to do Salford Crescent - Kirkby?

Now you want to do Salford Crescent - Broad Green, not Salford Crescent - West Kirby - Broad Green?

 

[Merseysider]

I agree that I probably made it sound more complicated than it actually is. Travel is Salford - Kirkby - West Kirby on a normal day but this time it's Salford - Broad Green - West Kirby. The original ticket would allow this but there's an excess stapled to it effectively prohibiting this route.

With regards to the clerk needing retraining, I'd have thought this was perfectly acceptable?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....With regards to the clerk needing retraining, I'd have thought this was perfectly acceptable?

'Deviation off route to a new destination' is a new ticket from the point of deviation, not an excess fare.

'Off-route', where there is no through ticket for the new route, is a new ticket (or tickets) to cover the part of the journey not covered by the ticket held, not an excess fare.

If the route via Kirby is a permitted route, there is no need for an excess fare.

 

[Haywain]

The question that should be asked here is whether West Kirby to Salford Crescent is valid to travel via Kirkby. If the routeing guide allows it, then no excess is necessary. If the routeing guide does not allow it, then no excess is available as there is not an alternative route available. In that case you would need more than one ticket.

As it stands I am curious as to what sort of excess you are getting. Is it overdistance or change of route, as neither would appear to be correct?

As for Broad Green, I cannot see how that could not be valid on the original route of the ticket. As there is no route between your origin and destination that is specifically via Kirkby, it would not appear to be possible to prohibit travel via Broad Green.

But then, of course, I may be holding this stick by the wrong end!

 

[Merseysider]

The question that should be asked here is whether West Kirby to Salford Crescent is valid to travel via Kirkby.

It is, but only if a direct service from Salford Crescent - Kirkby is taken, which only run until 17.52 Mon-Sat.

The reason for the over-distance excess being regularly obtained is that in order to reach Kirkby after this time from Salford Crescent, travel via Liverpool must be made which would then mean I need an excess to go up to Kirkby as it's in the opposite direction from Liverpool to West Kirby, if that makes sense.

Broad Green is in between Liverpool and Huyton.

I'm confusing even myself now

 

[bb21]

As I see it, to do Salford Crescent - Broad Green - West Kirby you just need your original ticket. That is a perfectly valid route and no excess is required. Take the excess coupon you already have off, and if there are two staple holes, so what? That doesn't invalidate the ticket.

Salford Crescent - Atherton - Wigan Wallgate (code is WGW btw) - Kirkby - Liverpool Central - West Kirby is a permitted route on a Salford Crescent - West Kirby ticket, as that is no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route, so no excess is required. It is not permitted via Bolton as that would cross the 3-mile threshold, and there is no mapped route via Bolton so you will need two tickets. No excess can be issued. That said, online journey planners use a different set of distance figures and the threshold is more generous, so if you can get an itinerary from journey planners via Bolton then you can legitimately travel that way. In reality I doubt you would encounter problems either way.

To do Salford Crescent - Earlestown / Warrington Central - Liverpool - Kirkby - Liverpool - West Kirby, the excess you were issued with is not valid, because the excess changes your ticket from a Salford Crescent - West Kirby one into a Salford Crescent - Kirkby one, and the validity of your ticket ceases at Kirkby. You would therefore be required to purchase another single ticket should you wish to continue from Kirkby later. If you only wish to go as far as Kirkby then provided that this excess is issued, you can legitimately travel there. That said, I can't see any reason why this excess should be issued in the first place, as it fits none of the legitimate reasons under which an excess can be issued. The correct course of action is for you to purchase an additional ticket for Liverpool Stns to Kirkby as this is deviation from your permitted route.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....The reason for the over-distance excess being regularly obtained is that in order to reach Kirkby after this time from Salford Crescent, travel via Liverpool must be made which would then mean I need an excess to go up to Kirkby as it's in the opposite direction from Liverpool to West Kirby, if that makes sense....

The excess fare often refered to as 'Over-distance' is actually 'Over-riding (travelling beyond the destination of the ticket)'. What you describe is actually 'Deviation off route to a new destination' which is not the same thing.

Also, I am wondering how you have come up with map ML. West Kirby would be associated with Liverpool (maps NO or NR). Kirkby could be associated with Liverpool (maps NO or NR), Wigan (map NN) or Preston (map KM).

 

[Merseysider]

Well you certainly know your stuff, a lesson learned for the newbie I've only been excessing for a couple months so maybe the clerk that does it is as inexperienced as I am? Either way, I was under the impression that because there was no difference in fare between tickets to the two destinations, an excess would work out perfectly fine
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Also, I am wondering how you have come up with map ML. West Kirby would be associated with Liverpool (maps NO or NR). Kirkby could be associated with Liverpool (maps NO or NR), Wigan (map NN) or Preston (map KM).

I was using ML because it shows the valid routes between Salford and Liverpool, but yes any of those maps would work too.

 

[bb21]

ML is not a permitted map between Salford Crescent and Liverpool Group. Only NO and NR are.

 

[Merseysider]

Does that thus invalidate travel from Salford - Liverpool via Wigan? The fare via wigan is cheaper than the Any Permitted ticket.

 

[bb21]

Yes, as an excess changes one ticket to another.

However in reality if you want to do Salford Crescent - Wigan Wallgate - Kirkby - Liverpool you would just take the excess coupon off and just use your original ticket.

 

[Merseysider]

Thank you for clearing that up; somewhat surprising but thanks.

Next you'll be telling me Salford - Glasgow - Inverness - West Kirby isn't a valid route any more :cry:

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Well you certainly know your stuff, a lesson learned for the newbie I've only been excessing for a couple months so maybe the clerk that does it is as inexperienced as I am?....

I have the excuse of having to know it for my job (and actually giving a **** about it). The clerk who gives you these excess fares might be inexperienced, they might not be trained to the level they need to be, they might not care, all are equally possible and I can't say which is true.

....Either way, I was under the impression that because there was no difference in fare between tickets to the two destinations, an excess would work out perfectly fine....

If only it worked that way, life would be much easier. There are five reasons for an excess fare to be issued:

Over-riding (travelling beyond the destination)
Off-Route (to the same destination)
Change of accommodation (STD to 1ST)
Travel at a restricted time or day
Single to Return*

Anything else is a new ticket and sometimes even these are a new ticket.

[* Not every ticket machine is capable of doing these]

I was using ML because it shows the valid routes between Salford and Liverpool, but yes any of those maps would work too.

It shows some routes, I wouldn't say they were valid without further investigation.

 

[bb21]

I was using ML because it shows the valid routes between Salford and Liverpool, but yes any of those maps would work too.

I think you may have made the mistake of jumping straight into the maps, whereas in fact the maps can only be consulted after a number of other steps have been carried out, which includes consulting the Yellow Pages (Section C) first.

Salford Crescent to Liverpool Group is shown to only be mapped on NR and NO, not ML, despite ML also showing both of these two places.

 

[Merseysider]

Over-riding (travelling beyond the destination)
Off-Route (to the same destination)

I think I get it; so excessing a Liverpool - Man Piccadilly ticket into a Liverpool - Man Airport would be Over-riding, whereas if there were two routes valid for the journey, excessing from the cheaper one to the more expensive one would be Off-Route?

It shows some routes, I wouldn't say they were valid without further investigation

Liverpool - Manchester direct is the quickest and shortest route. But Liverpool - Wigan - Manchester is cheaper, although it's ~10 miles longer in total, what do you make of it? Would this purely be because the quicker route is used more often

I think you may have made the mistake of jumping straight into the maps

Most likely. Looks like my interpretation of routeing was miles off.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think I get it; so excessing a Liverpool - Man Piccadilly ticket into a Liverpool - Man Airport would be Over-riding, whereas if there were two routes valid for the journey, excessing from the cheaper one to the more expensive one would be Off-Route?

Exactly.

Liverpool - Manchester direct is the quickest and shortest route. But Liverpool - Wigan - Manchester is cheaper, although it's ~10 miles longer in total, what do you make of it? Would this purely be because the quicker route is used more often

An 'Any Permitted' ticket is valid by any of the permitted routes (See National Rail Conditions of Carriage, Condition 13) and any other route (from the same origin to the same destination) for which the fare is not higher.

A specifically routed ticket ('via Wigan' for example) is valid by the permitted routes that pass through that place and any other route (from the same origin to the same destination) for which the fare is not higher.

In some cases there may not be a permitted route through the place named and in these cases the permitted routes are those from the origin to the place named, combined with the permitted routes from the place named to the destination.

In this case, Kirkby-Salford Crescent 'Any Permitted' could be valid via Wigan, Liverpool or Preston. The 'via Wigan' fare is cheaper because it restricts you to routes via Wigan, essentially just the Salford Crescent-Wigan Wallgate-Kirkby route.

Most likely. Looks like my interpretation of routeing was miles off.

We all have to start somewhere.

 

[bb21]

I think I get it; so excessing a Liverpool - Man Piccadilly ticket into a Liverpool - Man Airport would be Over-riding, whereas if there were two routes valid for the journey, excessing from the cheaper one to the more expensive one would be Off-Route?

Correct on both counts.

Liverpool - Manchester direct is the quickest and shortest route. But Liverpool - Wigan - Manchester is cheaper, although it's ~10 miles longer in total, what do you make of it? Would this purely be because the quicker route is used more often

Train companies offer cheaper fares on certain routes for a number of reasons, and distance is rarely the deciding factor. One of the most common reasons for offering a cheaper fare is that the route is longer and/or slower. Manchester Stns -Liverpool Stns only has the Any Permitted fare.

Manchester Stns - Kirkby however has a cheaper Via Wigan fare. You are effectively restricted to slow Northern services with these fares. If you look up fare details on brfares.com you will notice that the Any Permitted fare is priced by TPE and the Via Wigan fare by Northern. This suggests to me that it is likely Northern will only get a small share of the revenue generated by each Any Permitted fare sold, whereas I would imagine that they get to keep all of the revenue from the sale of Via Wigan fares. That is sometimes another reason for a train company to offer a cheaper fare.

Generally speaking a route-specific cheaper fare will offer a smaller choice of permitted routes compared to the more expensive Any Permitted fare.

 

[Merseysider]

In this case, Kirkby-Salford Crescent 'Any Permitted' could be valid via Wigan, Liverpool or Preston.

Preston? Now that is interesting. That's 30 miles north of Salford; have to give that a try some day.

One of the most common reasons for offering a cheaper fare is that the route is longer and/or slower.

On a 142, most definitely.

Manchester Stns -Liverpool Stns only has the Any Permitted fare.

You're entirely right, I was referring to splitting Liverpool - Manchester at Wigan, so thus buying two tickets, works out about 10% cheaper.

the Any Permitted it is likely Northern will only get a small share of the revenue generated by each Any Permitted fare sold, whereas I would imagine that they get to keep all of the revenue from the sale of Via Wigan fares.

Never thought of it that way, two different TOCs fighting for revenue by offering passengers cheaper fares does ring a bell. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilmslow_Road_bus_corridor

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Preston? Now that is interesting. That's 30 miles north of Salford; have to give that a try some day....

Tbh, I wouldn't. Not because it isn't valid (I believe some of the fares pass the fares check rule, but you'd have to double check to be sure), but because of the potential hassle you would get for trying it.