Modern Technologies and Future of Public Transport.

[Gingerbus1991]

We live in a world where many of us who do not mind public transport, with many of us actually favoring it.

Aside from the yester-years of Ecomats making Wha-Wha noises and the roaring kickdown of a B10RLE what are your thought on the ever growing population of Electric, Hybrid, Gas and Hydrogen buses around the country?

These change are the future are they not?

 

[GusB]

We live in a world where many of us who do not mind public transport, with many of us actually favoring it.

Aside from the yester-years of Ecomats making Wha-Wha noises and the roaring kickdown of a B10RLE what are your thought on the ever growing population of Electric, Hybrid, Gas and Hydrogen buses around the country?

These change are the future are they not?

I'm afraid my yesteryears go further back than Ecomats and their "Wha-wha" noises, as you put it. I'd also rather have a B10M over a B10RLE We've certainly come a long way from roaring 680s, TL11s and, 6LXBs in terms of quietness and air pollution. As an enthusiast, it's nice to get all misty-eyed and think about the old days, but if we're serious about cutting out pollution on our streets, we have to embrace these changes. We've already seen a switch to much smaller engines over the last couple of decades, and I just don't have the same fondness for them, so when everything goes electric I suppose I won't miss diesel that much.

 

[158756]

Zero (or at least very low) emission buses will have to be the future if the industry is to survive, and soon in the major cities. Currently though I'd be concerned that they aren't viable without government subsidy and there isn't much money in bus operation to support any increase in vehicle costs, and what impact this will have on marginal routes.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I'm afraid my yesteryears go further back than Ecomats and their "Wha-wha" noises, as you put it. I'd also rather have a B10M over a B10RLE We've certainly come a long way from roaring 680s, TL11s and, 6LXBs in terms of quietness and air pollution. As an enthusiast, it's nice to get all misty-eyed and think about the old days, but if we're serious about cutting out pollution on our streets, we have to embrace these changes. We've already seen a switch to much smaller engines over the last couple of decades, and I just don't have the same fondness for them, so when everything goes electric I suppose I won't miss diesel that much.

I'd also have a B10M over a B10RLE too as there's no such thing!

 

[GusB]

I'd also have a B10M over a B10RLE too as there's no such thing!

I'd assume the OP meant B10BLE, and I didn't spot the error. Did you sharpen your nit-picker this morning?

 

[Jordan Adam]

I'd assume the OP meant B10BLE, and I didn't spot the error. Did you sharpen your nit-picker this morning?

Indeed i did! Although i fear i may have sharpened it a little too much.

Funnily enough on the topic of gas vehicles there was a variant of the B10BLE built in the 00s that was CNG powered with the GH10C engine and compliant to Euro IV. Although it was never brought to the UK.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

I'd assume the OP meant B10BLE, and I didn't spot the error. Did you sharpen your nit-picker this morning?

My fault, You can tell I'm not that old lol

 

[RJ]

As a driver the new generation of buses are pretty boring. I still enjoy the Ecomats in my own Euro 2 Trident and the Euro 4 E400s I get to drive, the latter of which do tend to start roaring before long!

 

[ericlesley]

The future of buses is most likely to be electric. At the moment that looks like smaller batteries with opportunity charging or trolleybuses with discontinuous over head. Prague (route 58)has reintroduced a trolleybus route and is looking to extend. Likewise Berlin and Stockholm are considering new trolleybus installations on this basis.

I've attached a couple of reports that show how things are and are predicted to be.

Here's a video demonstrating In Motion Charging in Prague

 

[Jordan Adam]

At some point electric is going to be the only real way forward (unless another power form appears). But currently electric still lacks to match what a conventional diesel can do, and until then it will not be the primary source in my view. I heavily disagree regarding trolleybuses and the in motion charging, the only locations where they can be considered a viable option is in cities which still have existing tram infrastructure, otherwise they're far too expensive and ghastly.

Personally i think that diesel will be the primary form of traction for quite a while yet, i also don't think we'll move straight to electric. What i think will happen is the industry will go through a transition period (i'd say it's already started) where Diesel-Electric Hybrid will increase in popularity and become the main player, as electric technology progresses with batteries becoming more reliable, have longer live spans and giving additional range. Then they could become the primary source.

From personal experience the Hydrogen-Electric vehicles such as the Vanhool A330s in Aberdeen and London are the way forward, they can match up to what a diesel bus can do and to me seem the "better" option. The only downside is poor reliability and initial costs, although i think the new generation of Hydrogen vehicles coming on the market will be more reliable. It will be interesting to see what the new Wright Streetdeck FCEV's which are being introduced with First Aberdeen soon will be like.

In short:
Diesel will be here for some time to come and remain the primary form of power.
Hybrid will most likely act as a transition to electric and nothing more. Hybrid vehicles are said to be cheaper to run, but in reality that's not true!
In motion charging/Trolley Buses have no real market in the UK and require far too much infrastructure.
Hydrogen is the closest to matching what a diesel/Hybrid can do and in my view the best of the lot, but can be unreliable and is slightly more expensive than electric.
Battery Electric will most likely be the future, but it can't match what diesel/hybrid/hydrogen can do in range. And a battery electric vehicle cannot last a full 18 hours in service, having charging stations at either end of the route would likely solve that issue but also increase fleet PVRs.

 

[ericlesley]

Diesel, for sure, is the current fuel of choice. But both the reports I posted show that the Total Cost of Ownership of electric (BEB) is already on a par and in some cases lower than that of a diesel bus (however productivity can be an issue, requiring larger fleets). The Bloomberg report forecasts that upfront cost parity will be reached by 2030, possibly 2025, if demand grows as it has been. In this case there would be no financial reasoning to own diesel buses.

IMC trolleybuses will probably never be introduced in the UK (not least because of the legislative hurdles required). But in Europe there is definitely momentum towards them. The primary consideration here is tailpipe emissions, some German cities are not procuring internal combustion engined vehicles after 2020 (eg Bremen; Berlin is to have 100% electric vehicle fleet by 2030). In these scenarios, IMC trolleybuses are likely to make a big impact.

Opportunity charging is being rolled out in various cities, however it has proved problematic in some situations. Eg in Cologne during peak hours they found that 75% of buses were late reaching the terminus and thus unable to charge.

Hydrogen buses are electric buses but with a fuel cell, so essentially the same thing. I guess the best way to look at it is to see where auto manufacturers are focusing their R&D spend - and that is in to batteries and new chemistry. Solid State Batteries have a lot of money going in to them: VW and Toyota have announced massive spends on this because of the higher energy density.

If I were to make a bet, I'd say that in 5 years diesel buses will make up a minority of vehicles ordered. Localised air pollution is rapidly becoming the overarching factor in transport planning and as buses make a considerable contribution for this they will need to become emissions free or be legislated against.

(NB even though the next phase of LEZs is demanding EURO VI, the evidence shows that EURO VI buses don't necessarily have lower emissions.. hence emission free is the only real choice).

 

[VioletEclipse]

If I were to make a bet, I'd say that in 5 years diesel buses will make up a minority of vehicles ordered. Localised air pollution is rapidly becoming the overarching factor in transport planning and as buses make a considerable contribution for this they will need to become emissions free or be legislated against.

If the planet is to survive another few decades then internal combustion engine powered anything (cars, buses, lorries) shouldn't be an option to buy new after about 2022.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We live in a world where many of us who do not mind public transport, with many of us actually favoring it.

Aside from the yester-years of Ecomats making Wha-Wha noises and the roaring kickdown of a B10RLE what are your thought on the ever growing population of Electric, Hybrid, Gas and Hydrogen buses around the country?

These change are the future are they not?

A concern is that the conservative railway fails to embrace battery tech and electrification and thus a load of line closures result (as buses would not only be cheaper but also more environmentally friendly). So the work Vivarail and Porterbrook are doing with batteries is very important.

 

[VioletEclipse]

A concern is that the conservative railway fails to embrace battery tech and electrification and thus a load of line closures result (as buses would not only be cheaper but also more environmentally friendly). So the work Vivarail and Porterbrook are doing with batteries is very important.

Agreed, what Vivarail are doing is incredible, a brilliant example of how you can repurpose old rolling stock with very minimal environmental impact.