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Not sure if this has been mentioned already, but the LNER survey (or at least the one I did) mentioned paying a fee to reserve a specific seat. That implies they aren’t thinking about charging for reservations where their software chooses the seat.
If they go down that route, what are the chances that their software “randomly” distributes the seats allocated for a group booking throughout the train (a la Ryanair / EasyJet) to force encourage families with small children to cough up for the self-select option?
If they go down that route, what are the chances that their software “randomly” distributes the seats allocated for a group booking throughout the train (a la Ryanair / EasyJet) to force encourage families with small children to cough up for the self-select option?
easyJet categorically do not do this (unless there aren't enough spare seats together) - it is only Ryanair - and LNER's survey says they won't either.
easyJet categorically do not do this (unless there aren't enough spare seats together) - it is only Ryanair - and LNER's survey says they won't either.
I couldn’t remember whether it was one or both airlines that did that. Didn’t notice the survey saying LNER won’t do it, but it’s good news if that’s the case. It really is an underhand way of making money
I couldn’t remember whether it was one or both airlines that did that. Didn’t notice the survey saying LNER won’t do it, but it’s good news if that’s the case. It really is an underhand way of making money
easyJet crews also ask people if they will swap if families do get split. It's not just poor customer service, it's actively dangerous on an aircraft - in an evacuation family members will go looking for family members rather than getting out quickly, so they really should all be seated together.
easyJet crews also ask people if they will swap if families do get split. It's not just poor customer service, it's actively dangerous on an aircraft - in an evacuation family members will go looking for family members rather than getting out quickly, so they really should all be seated together.
The problem is that someone going back to find a kid sat at the opposite end of the plane could block my exit and cause my death, and I'm not OK with that. There really should be legislation requiring children to be sitting directly adjacent to one of their accompanying adults.
You don't have a choice with Ryanair. If you travel with a child under a certain age (10 I think) you are forced to pay to reserve seats together. I've never flown with them and never intend to. Luckily LNER isn't proposing to sink to this level.
I guess the choice is not flying with Ryanair in the first place.
How much of a problem is (was) overcrowding on a day to day basis? I know that at certain times (during the Edinburgh festival for example) train after train is completely rammed, right from London to Edinburgh. I can see some merit to compulsory reservations during that time, however; if every train is fully booked then people will have to fly or drive instead, and I’m not sure that’s better.
And making people reserve just to travel from Wakefield to Leeds, or Durham to Newcastle, or Stonehaven to Montrose is adding a layer of complexity that a lot of passengers just won’t bother with, and if you start penalty faring them for not doing so then they’ll start driving instead.
And making people reserve just to travel from Wakefield to Leeds, or Durham to Newcastle, or Stonehaven to Montrose is adding a layer of complexity that a lot of passengers just won’t bother with
It's also really very bad, because insisting on Leeds to Wakefield passengers booking a seat on the 1745 will result in it becoming prematurely full, even if you do manage to charge £3 or whatever. Then LNER get their £3 a time and their share of the Leeds to Wakefield season but they lose the Leeds to London fares because the train is "full" while carrying large numbers of empty seats after Doncaster.
...which demonstrates that people are prepared to stand for a long time in preference to waiting around for ages. The standing capacity is a notable proportion of overall capacity.
How does that follow? LNER haven't indicated any intention of issuing standing reservations. Therefore compulsory reservations would simply make the capacity situation worse, as you might only be able to take 60 or 70% as many people as you otherwise could.
That in turn means that more trains will be fully booked (and thus unavailable to the turn up and go passenger), and/or that some people will go "sod it" and drive or fly. Which both seem completely counterproductive outcomes. I therefore see compulsory reservations as fatally flawed, certainly if implemented without standing reservations.
If you only issue seated reservations, you are "resolving" a vocal minority's complaints of overcrowding (and ultimately inconvenience), by instead inconveniencing far more people, reducing overall revenue and putting the carbon-efficient capacity of the railways to waste.
If you only issue seated reservations, you are "resolving" a vocal minority's complaints of overcrowding (and ultimately inconvenience), by instead inconveniencing far more people, reducing overall revenue and putting the carbon-efficient capacity of the railways to waste.
I suspect it is more than a minority among those who don't get seats. 'Normal' passengers simply can't understand why there is overcrowding on any long-distance service (and actually see it as 'profiteering' - ie selling more seats than are available). Presumably, LNER will hope that custom is simply displaced to another service. If they get their pricing right, they will not see reduced revenue. Passengers may see higher prices however.
Avanti only asking for reservations from Glasgow Central. My ticket was checked at Glasgow Central, but the guard didn't check my seat reservation. I didn't book a seat on the return.
Maybe throwing a spanner in the works here, but what happens in the situation your train is late or delayed (or swapped timings with another), people have reserved that seat?
As an example 2 years ago with me was my train was late and partially diverted, my seat was reserved (correctly), my train arrived in Edinburgh displacing one of the Edinburgh trains, but you have passengers boarding that have done the same as me but then tell you to get out their seat as (they have reserved it), I think they need to consider this too as it’ll annoy a lot of people.
I don’t like the idea either of charging for a seat, next they’ll encourage the likes of Megabus to charge on finding a seat, I just prefer book on site/app with preferences (window or aisle - back or forth and done)
If you only issue seated reservations, you are "resolving" a vocal minority's complaints of overcrowding (and ultimately inconvenience), by instead inconveniencing far more people, reducing overall revenue and putting the carbon-efficient capacity of the railways to waste.
I suspect it is more than a minority among those who don't get seats. 'Normal' passengers simply can't understand why there is overcrowding on any long-distance service (and actually see it as 'profiteering' - ie selling more seats than are available).
It may be that there are people who can't get seats who think that reservations should be compulsory, but they'd be pretty daft to think that, as they'd be the ones who'd get left behind at the station under CR.
The issue is forcing a particular standard on everyone when in reality, many might be more than willing to stand for a short while or indeed a long while. Some value journey time overall higher than comfort. There are so many competing needs and many people value the flexibility the railway gives - for instance to depart/arrive earlier/later than you had originally intended. It would have to be a very responsive and flexible system to allow real-time updates. And of course there's the "no show" element but as this would be a new system for CR, there wouldn't be any data on what % of bookings that would be.
I can see the flip side though, especially for long-distance IC journeys with high fares you really want a seat at a minimum. In normal times though, this would artificially supress demand and would probably increase fares as supply can't keep up.
It may be that there are people who can't get seats who think that reservations should be compulsory, but they'd be pretty daft to think that, as they'd be the ones who'd get left behind at the station under CR.
I think the thing they mostly don't like is that you rock up at the station, are sold a ticket then get to the train and there are no seats. You could solve that by having unmarked reservations (so they can be made right up to departure at all stations, not just the origin) and selling all tickets with a reservation until such time as the train is full. At that point you can still sell for that train but you clearly inform the passenger that there are no reservations left and so they WILL be standing (obviously if there is a reservation starting later in the journey that can be issued). Some will choose this, others might then change their plan if feasible, e.g. wait an hour and go for a meal.
Similarly with a walk-up you could go to a TVM, or on your phone, or whatever, and get a reservation if any were left, but if they weren't again you would know you would be standing and so make your decision accordingly - stand or pick a different train.
I think that, combined with showing usual loadings on the journey planners as the Swiss do, would get rid of a fair whack of overcrowding on specific trains, and would also near-eliminate the Euston scrum and similar.
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The issue is forcing a particular standard on everyone when in reality, many might be more than willing to stand for a short while or indeed a long while.
One thing worthy of note is that a heavy standing load reduces the quality of the journey for those who are seated - it's hard to board, alight, go to the bog/buffet/whatever. It's not solely those who are standing who are accepting a lower comfort level.
If LNER's current implementation is anything to go off I am hard no to compulsory reservations. To prevent people block booking they have a 2 reservations a day limit however if you're trying to break your journey in any way and book your return your very much relying on there still being availability the next day.
It's made booking journeys for me recently an absolute nightmare as my plans can change last minute due to business and the vast majority of my journeys aren't A-B as I group commitments together to reduce the back and forth between two main be places.
Does this mean that a season ticket holder would have to go to a ticket office to block-book their reservations for the week or take their chances on the day? If so, then you run the risk of people with open tickets to Edinburgh being refused travel because of the seats that have been taken by Stevenage and Peterborough commuters, when they’d accept standing for half an hour given the choice.
I can’t remember the last time I went further than Leeds-Doncaster with them on an open ticket, which probably puts it in the early 2000s. To my mind it’s a sledgehammer to crack a walnut when modern technology allows reservations to be made while the train is en route for those who wish to make them.
I think the thing they mostly don't like is that you rock up at the station, are sold a ticket then get to the train and there are no seats. You could solve that by having unmarked reservations (so they can be made right up to departure at all stations, not just the origin) and selling all tickets with a reservation until such time as the train is full. At that point you can still sell for that train but you clearly inform the passenger that there are no reservations left and so they WILL be standing (obviously if there is a reservation starting later in the journey that can be issued). Some will choose this, others might then change their plan if feasible, e.g. wait an hour and go for a meal.
I think this is a really important aspect. If the system is smart enough to at least pre-warn people that a specific train is fully reserved and you may not be able to find a seat, I might be slightly more inclined to agree with the suggestions - the passenger can make an informed judgment. This (and CR) would be a massive cultural change for UK rail travellers though.
I think this is a really important aspect. If the system is smart enough to at least pre-warn people that a specific train is fully reserved and you may not be able to find a seat, I might be slightly more inclined to agree with the suggestions - the passenger can make an informed judgment. This (and CR) would be a massive cultural change for UK rail travellers though.
Indeed. You do have "reservation level" displayed on the screens at Euston (and other stations) which can help, but you still get 400 people making a bee-line for Coach C, and it creates an unpleasant and dangerous situation.
Maybe throwing a spanner in the works here, but what happens in the situation your train is late or delayed (or swapped timings with another), people have reserved that seat?
As an example 2 years ago with me was my train was late and partially diverted, my seat was reserved (correctly), my train arrived in Edinburgh displacing one of the Edinburgh trains, but you have passengers boarding that have done the same as me but then tell you to get out their seat as (they have reserved it), I think they need to consider this too as it’ll annoy a lot of people.
I don’t like the idea either of charging for a seat, next they’ll encourage the likes of Megabus to charge on finding a seat, I just prefer book on site/app with preferences (window or aisle - back or forth and done)
One option is to utilise computer-indicated reservations (as already in IETs) and a uniform fleet (or restrict the plan to make sure all services which may step up/down are formed by identical stock). As soon as the decision to step up stock is made, allocate the reservations list to the new train and instruct crew to ensure the latest list is downloaded.
One option is to utilise computer-indicated reservations (as already in IETs) and a uniform fleet (or restrict the plan to make sure all services which may step up/down are formed by identical stock). As soon as the decision to step up stock is made, allocate the reservations list to the new train and instruct crew to ensure the latest list is downloaded.
So how is that achieved? Make sure all services at Edinburgh are 9 car sets? Then what about Kings Cross? Make sure everything is 5 or 10 car? Its a circle you can't square. The inevitable thing about disruption is there is an almost unlimited list of permutations, you simply cannot plan for them all!
Even if you could overcome that, you've got passengers on the original delayed train, in booked seats, who are suddenly technically on the wrong train, where other passengers will have booked the same seats....
It seems to me that EC and other management supporters of compulsory reservations are just incompetent buffoons. Instead of making life easier for passengers, they are proposing policies that will make life more difficult, and encourage people to use cars, when they can travel when they want to, and adjust their journey time to suit their own needs, instead of being restricted to a time that suits the convenience of the train operator.
This is no way to encourage more people to get out of their cars and onto public transport....
People selling things (including transport) need to remember that they exist solely to provide what the customer needs / wants -- not vice versa.
Example I could say but I’ll say this from the Dundee end, my train that day in particular was due to arrive at 1108, it was delayed then diverted to Perth, this train is usually the 1230 (estimate), what happened was I was setback to (think) was 1330 instead - I believe that’s the Edinburgh-London bound.
My reservation that day was reserved as planned but due to issues prior to Edinburgh, train was knocked off by either 30 mins to an hour.
However when train arrived in Edinburgh, reservations were knocked off and passengers boarding assumed this was the Edinburgh train and not the Aberdeen/Dundee train to London. There was no information given when passengers boarded and I had been caught up and a fellow passenger told me to move, had to explain with help of fellow passengers to say train was late and from Aberdeen not the one expected from Edinburgh.
That passenger and many others were then told to find a different seat not the one booked.
I think LNER need to tread with this carefully as if things like this happen it’s going to leave customers unhappy
Example I could say but I’ll say this from the Dundee end, my train that day in particular was due to arrive at 1108, it was delayed then diverted to Perth, this train is usually the 1230 (estimate), what happened was I was setback to (think) was 1330 instead - I believe that’s the Edinburgh-London bound.
My reservation that day was reserved as planned but due to issues prior to Edinburgh, train was knocked off by either 30 mins to an hour.
However when train arrived in Edinburgh, reservations were knocked off and passengers boarding assumed this was the Edinburgh train and not the Aberdeen/Dundee train to London. There was no information given when passengers boarded and I had been caught up and a fellow passenger told me to move, had to explain with help of fellow passengers to say train was late and from Aberdeen not the one expected from Edinburgh.
That passenger and many others were then told to find a different seat not the one booked.
I think LNER need to tread with this carefully as if things like this happen it’s going to leave customers unhappy
So how is that achieved? Make sure all services at Edinburgh are 9 car sets? Then what about Kings Cross? Make sure everything is 5 or 10 car? Its a circle you can't square. The inevitable thing about disruption is there is an almost unlimited list of permutations, you simply cannot plan for them all!
Even if you could overcome that, you've got passengers on the original delayed train, in booked seats, who are suddenly technically on the wrong train, where other passengers will have booked the same seats....
I’ll reply but your second paragraph happened exactly to me, but even in that situation it doesn’t help if customers aren’t warned be in train station or train itself
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I decide after a day out in (say) York that I'll catch the train home after an evening meal. I have a flexible return ticket, however none of that day's remaining services have any reservation availability.
I decide after a day out in (say) York that I'll catch the train home after an evening meal. I have a flexible return ticket, however none of that day's remaining services have any reservation availability.
Or the standard ask a member of station staff, call them (by phone or using a help point) or over twitter (they'll get back at some point when they can be bothered to respond, for LNER my experience is about a 2 hour wait)
Or the standard ask a member of station staff, call them (by phone or using a help point) or over twitter (they'll get back at some point when they can be bothered to respond, for LNER my experience is about a 2 hour wait)
However none of them will give me the seat reservation which I require to be able to travel.
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Ref recent posts regarding there seemingly being a limit of 2 reservations per email address per day:
Link to LNER website, which clearly states one can, in theory, make the same journey multiple times per day with a season (or for that matter, rover) ticket.
How can multiple repeat journeys per day be made if there's a limit to the number of reservations per email address per day?
We are aware of an issue with emails from the Forum to Microsoft-based email accounts (hotmail/outlook/live.com email addresses). This is being looked into currently, thanks for your patience meanwhile.
