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Modern Railways: LNER and compulsory reservations

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gka472l

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I can remember a couple of occasions when trains have either been lengthened (TPE from Man Pic after the rugby) or additional trains have been summoned (Northern from Horwich Parkway after a concert).

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Indeed. For the avoidance of doubt, I am against this codswallop :)

Not really possible to lengthen the trains on the TOC I'm referring to, and very few spares......
 
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A0

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Oh dear. This wouldn't be too great a move on LNER's part. By doing compulsory reservations they could easily wave goodbye to those who use their services to London from Peterborough and Stevenage. If they were to go compulsory reservation it would just push people onto Great Northern.

The same would also happen to the commuters who use LNER between Dundee and Edinburgh, as well as intermediate stations who would move to the Scotrail services.
Well, it's actually good for LNER - they will haveonger distance passengers, guaranteed a seat and travelling in comfort without having to battle commuters to Stevenage or Peterboro that have plenty of other services to choose from. EMR has the same problem when they had Luton and Bedford stops in the peak - people travelling to Leicester or Nottingham faced not getting a seat until Bedford..
 

ABB125

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Personally I think compulsory reservations are bad. Instead, I would have a system as follows:
  • You can purchase a ticket for any train, either a specific advance ticket, or a flexible one
  • Advance tickets include a reservation by default
  • There would be a system whereby you could book a reservation for any train if you have a flexible ticket. This would be possible online/by app, and in stations using a machine
  • If the number of reservations given by the system reaches the planned number of seats available on any particular train, no more reservations can be sold. This would be indicated of the system. Passengers would still be able to buy tickets, but in the knowledge that they are likely to have to stand if they take train X which has no reservations available
Of course, this would be much easier if there was a single, unified national ticket and reservation booking website. The process would be something like this:
  • I'm booking my ticket in advance (perhaps a week or so). I look on the system and see that tickets (both advance and flexible) are available on train X. I book an advance ticket for train X because it's cheap, with a reservation included. Job done.
  • I'm booking a ticket in advance, but I know I will need flexibility. I buy a flexible ticket, and book a seat on train Y (outbound leg). I haven't decided when I'll be returning. On the day, I travel out on the booked train. When I've finished my meeting/whatever else I'm doing, I have a look on the system to see if I can book a seat on train Z, the next one home. The system says no, I can't get a reservation because the allocated number of reservations has already been issued; I can, however, still travel on train Z, I just may need to stand depending on whether everyone with a reservation turns up or not. Alternatively, I can get a reservation on train A, half an hour later. I therefore have a choice: wait an extra half hour for a guaranteed seat, or choose to potentially stand but get home earlier.
Simple!
But compulsory reservations? No.
 

bramling

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But plenty of Joe Public also think packing passengers onto trains is "contemptible" too.

That may be so, however most of the same Joe Public would see the solution to that as “you’d think they’d put a longer train on” or “you’d think they’d run more trains”, as opposed to imposing travel restrictions.

In fact, the normal way in life to deal with demand > supply is simply to knock prices up until a new equilibrium is reached. We already have elements of this with the pricing structure which encourages people to book quieter trains. So it seems to come down to many of the remainder being tied down to when they can travel, or if they can’t get a reservation then they either have to find a way of making the journey at a less convenient time, not make the journey at all, or find another mode (which in many cases will be the car). How do these three outcomes benefit the passenger?
 

Bletchleyite

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One thing that might work is stopping marking reservations so they can be sold right up to departure, with a coach or number of coaches designated unreserved. That way passengers can always be sold a reservation when they buy a ticket, but if there are none left they can be warned they may have to stand.
 

bramling

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Well, it's actually good for LNER - they will haveonger distance passengers, guaranteed a seat and travelling in comfort without having to battle commuters to Stevenage or Peterboro that have plenty of other services to choose from. EMR has the same problem when they had Luton and Bedford stops in the peak - people travelling to Leicester or Nottingham faced not getting a seat until Bedford..

I don’t think this is a “Reading commuter” issue, but more one for people making medium length journeys, and perhaps to some extent commuter journeys in areas where there isn’t a substitute operator available.

How else can one reasonably do a journey like Retford to Wakefield or Grantham to London? Or even more so something like Berwick to Newcastle?
 

DB

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Actually, I am not unfamiliar with it at all as I previously have been in a situation where I travelled home on a Friday. However, as Friday afternoons are a busier time then this allows for all customers to have comfort and will appease most people looking to get away for the weekend or return home from working in cities after a long day.

Ultimately though this is what the DfT are trialling with LNER so whether we (on this forum) like it or not is irrelevant. If customers in the surveys they will undoubtedly do like it will stay and expand to other TOCs and if they don't then it will go.

So basically it doesn't affect you, you haven't experienced it but you think it's fine to cause issues for those who do experience it.

Not sure how hanging around a station concourse because no reservations are available counts as 'comfort' either.

Those in favour seem to fall in two camps - railway staff on the basis that it makes things easier for the railways, and people who are almost always able to book well in advance and think everyone else should be forced to or made to hang aroundfor hours at busy times.

This latter group is rather reminiscent of the work from home in big house with garden locktivists - they are in favour of a system which benefits them personally and not bothered about the problems It causes for others.
 

Bob M

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If reservations are compulsory, some way will have to be found to stop passengers making multiple reservations on different trains. Either charge, or sell only with ticket?

It is a problem now, but at least the unused seats can now be taken by passengers without a reservation.
 

bramling

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So basically it doesn't affect you, you haven't experienced it but you think it's fine to cause issues for those who do experience it.

Not sure how hanging around a station concourse because no reservations are available counts as 'comfort' either.

Those in favour seem to fall in two camps - railway staff on the basis that it makes things easier for the railways, and people who are almost always able to book well in advance and think everyone else should be forced to or made to hang aroundfor hours at busy times.

This latter group is rather reminiscent of the work from home in big house with garden locktivists - they are in favour of a system which benefits them personally and not bothered about the problems It causes for others.

Yes it does seem like there’s elements of “I book well in advance, and would like to clear others off my train” in play here.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

If reservations are compulsory, some way will have to be found to stop passengers making multiple reservations on different trains. Either charge, or sell only with ticket?

It is a problem now, but at least the unused seats can now be taken by passengers without a reservation.

Did we not already see people doing multiple reservations last year, which at the time to be fair probably wasn’t a major problem with the low numbers travelling.
 

londonteacher

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Yes it does seem like there’s elements of “I book well in advance, and would like to clear others off my train” in play here.
Not at all. I regularly book on the day or day before the long-distance travel as I never know what my workload will be that weekend.
 

bramling

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Not at all. I regularly book on the day or day before the long-distance travel as I never know what my workload will be that weekend.

I can’t see what other motivation there is, other than the very unusual scenario of train being too busy to reach reserved seat.

All this about “it’s bad publicity for the railway if someone buys a ticket and then can’t get a seat” does come across as a bit of a smokescreen.
 

Ianno87

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Yes it does seem like there’s elements of “I book well in advance, and would like to clear others off my train” in play here.

Why should those who have planned in advance have a worse travel experience due to those who haven't?
 

TUC

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Why on earth would I, or the many other passengers with expensive open return tickets, want to throw away the ability to arrive at the station at the end of a busy day in London, see the previous train to the one you planned to get is still at the platform 10 minutes after it's scheduled departure, and jump on it?

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Why should those who have planned in advance have a worse travel experience due to those who haven't?
As long as you have the seat you booked, in what way would you have a worse travel experience? That's the only thing you've paid for, not the right to have an empty train.
 

bramling

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Why should those who have planned in advance have a worse travel experience due to those who haven't?

I think we’ve now quite conspicuously established the real motivation for the support for this concept.

Why shouldn’t they? Especially when, under current fares structures, those who are travelling turn-up-and-go are likely to have paid a higher fare, in some cases considerably so.

Meanwhile, the railways main competitor - the car - doesn’t have this issue, so like it or not I think a significant number of people would be alienated, far more than those who want to bag an advance ticket and have space around them.
 

Ianno87

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I think we’ve now quite conspicuously established the real motivation for the support for this concept.

Your motivation in this discussion seems to be the railway continuing to pander to exactly how you personally like to travel, because you don't like change that might be beneficial to more people overall. I'm thinking of the wider population and making rail as appealing to as many as possible, in line with 2020s expectations of quality and experience.

Why shouldn’t they? Especially when, under current fares structures, those who are travelling turn-up-and-go are likely to have paid a higher fare, in some cases considerably so.

Plenty of people buy the turn up and go ticket and still have the forethought to reserve a seat. It's not all about cheap advances.

Meanwhile, the railways main competitor - the car - doesn’t have this issue, so like it or not I think a significant number of people would be alienated, far more than those who want to bag an advance ticket and have space around them.

You are also guaranteed a seat in the car. The risk of standing alienates people today.


Anyway, I've made my points several times over now, so "I'm out" in the words of Duncan Bannatyne. What I think we can all agree on is there's no perfect solution!
 

gka472l

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Your motivation in this discussion seems to be the railway continuing to pander to exactly how you personally like to travel, because you don't like change that might be beneficial to more people overall. I'm thinking of the wider population and making rail as appealing to as many as possible, in line with 2020s expectations of quality and experience.



Plenty of people buy the turn up and go ticket and still have the forethought to reserve a seat. It's not all about cheap advances.



You are also guaranteed a seat in the car. The risk of standing alienates people today.


Anyway, I've made my points several times over now, so "I'm out" in the words of Duncan Bannatyne. What I think we can all agree on is there's no perfect solution!

I agree, either side is never going to accept the other side's argument and will result in just going in circles.....I, too, am also out....
 

DB

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Your motivation in this discussion seems to be the railway continuing to pander to exactly how you personally like to travel, because you don't like change that might be beneficial to more people overall. I'm thinking of the wider population and making rail as appealing to as many as possible, in line with 2020s expectations of quality and experience.

Not how I read it - he's just advocating the flexibility of turn up and go which is a core benefit of the railways. Not seen anything against change as a concept.

Plenty of people buy the turn up and go ticket and still have the forethought to reserve a seat. It's not all about cheap advances.

And nobody is trying to deny them the ability to do that. You don't seem to understand that in many cases 'forethought' has nothing to do with it - people may simply not know the exact time when they will be travelling.

You are also guaranteed a seat in the car. The risk of standing alienates people today.

So in order to avoid a busy train having, say 700 people but only 600 seats, we need to restrict the train to 600 passengers (plus possibly a dozen or two standing of you are generous enough to allow that). So in order to attract people who don't like crowded trains (many of whom will probably put up with it in reality), we need to reduce the overall capacity of the train, meaning either lower revenue (not likely to be acceptable) or higher ticket prices. How is that, overall, in the benefit of customers? In the normal world, the reason for trying to attract customers in any field is to fill unused capacity - but that's not needed here, and on quieter trains thr railways already have a system in place for doing this using various pricing levels for advance tickers.

Those few who are prepared to pay more for it not to be crowded on a busy train can go for first class, where it's far less likely to be full and standing in most cases.
 

bramling

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I agree, either side is never going to accept the other side's argument and will result in just going in circles.....I, too, am also out....

The difficulty is that no one seems able to make a convincing case for how we go from “standing is rubbish” (which I think everyone accepts) to “sorry you can’t travel at all” is somehow an improvement for the majority of people.

This is why the discussion is running in circles.
 

Hadders

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Not at all. I regularly book on the day or day before the long-distance travel as I never know what my workload will be that weekend.
What do you propose happens when a train gets cancelled? Or when disruption on a connecting service means you miss your booked LNER train?
 

Dave91131

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What do you propose happens when a train gets cancelled? Or when disruption on a connecting service means you miss your booked LNER train?

I can only conclude it would be one of get phone out and re-book for however many services later, visit booking office to do likewise, or give up go home and start again another day.

None of which, of course, are customer friendly.
 

bramling

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Your motivation in this discussion seems to be the railway continuing to pander to exactly how you personally like to travel, because you don't like change that might be beneficial to more people overall. I'm thinking of the wider population and making rail as appealing to as many as possible, in line with 2020s expectations of quality and experience.



Plenty of people buy the turn up and go ticket and still have the forethought to reserve a seat. It's not all about cheap advances.

Firstly, the railway “pandering to how I travel” doesn’t create a situation of people turning up and being unable to travel, which I find a pretty undesirable outcome.

Secondly, the railway has very successfully managed to attract custom based in this model for the last 25 years or so. There doesn’t seem to be *any* evidence for why change might be necessary (apart from that this seems to suit your own travel habits). Just because LNER seem to have managed to get a bit of ridership in the middle of a pandemic situation does not mean that this automatically equals 2020s travel habits and expectations as you put it.

Indeed going for something which is the antithesis of flexibility seems to be going in the opposite direction as I see it, especially when it’s never been easier to jump in the car and go somewhere on-spec.
 

Hadders

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I can only conclude it would be one of get phone out and re-book for however many services later, visit booking office to do likewise, or give up go home and start again another day.

None of which, of course, are customer friendly.
Indeed. The prospect of being stranded at mid-journey is very real and I wouldn't fancy being stranded at somewhere like Retford, Newark or Grantham for potentially days....
 

Scotrail314209

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I was wondering how the Edinburgh - Berwick commuter flow would be working if it went reservation only.

It's a journey of 40 minutes, is there any point in reserving a seat?

I believe Scotrail intend on an Edinburgh - Berwick service calling at the new ECML stations.
 

Clip

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The difficulty is that no one seems able to make a convincing case for how we go from “standing is rubbish” (which I think everyone accepts) to “sorry you can’t travel at all” is somehow an improvement for the majority of people.

This is why the discussion is running in circles.
No one is saying you 'cant travel' are they?
I suppose they’ve generally paid a lot less for their tickets, for one thing.
Not always the case with a lot of advance purchases - some people will purchase a super/off peak ticket in advance, plus from what ive been reading on other pages on here sometimes the 'advance' ticket can be either the same as a normal 'Advance'
What do you propose happens when a train gets cancelled? Or when disruption on a connecting service means you miss your booked LNER train?
Have they published anything about what happens during disruption or is this an assumption that they would leave you 'Stranded'? It woudl take a massive change in the conditions of travel for what you suggest to occur wouldnt it?
Not how I read it - he's just advocating the flexibility of turn up and go which is a core benefit of the railways. Not seen anything against change as a concept.
You can still turn up and go and book some reservations on some TOCs cant you? Im sure cross country do 10 minute reservations
 

AlterEgo

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Actually, I do think this is reasonable.

If I am travelling by other means of transport such as coach I would have to do the same thing unless there was space on an earlier service. The same as if I am travelling by air domestically.
Coach doesn’t compete against the private car as its biggest competition and neither does the airline.
I really wish we could draw the discussion back to the one mode railways have haemorrhaged business to in the past year, and that’s to people driving their own car.
 

Unstoppable

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To me the rail network is unreliable. TOCs willing to cancel trains for silly little reasons rather than showing they are trying and forging through adversity. For me the car wins hands down over the train and this compulsory reservation malarkey just adds to my views on the subject
 

alistairlees

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Not heard anything internally as I work for one of the TOC's mentioned, but I will say that there are plenty of complaints when people are able to purchase tickets when the train is already full.....many people already think a seat comes automatically with any ticket. One of the TOC's booking systems blanks out services when they're fully reserved now with the reduced amount of reservations allowed.....
This is indeed the main reason for compulsory reservations being introduced.

To put a bit more flavour on it, there have been many (pre-Covid) instances where trains leaving Kings Cross especially (and also other stations) have been grossly overbooked, with many customers having to stand for very long journeys (such as London to Edinburgh). I've seen this myself several times on Fridays and Sundays.

It goes without saying that this leads to a very poor customer experience, and a view (both by those directly affected, and those who were on the train but had a seat) that train travel is not good at all, at any price really.

But we need to ask: why did this happen? The answer was that it was because, although all reservable accommodation was fully reserved, online booking engines continued to sell tickets, even though there was no seat for the ticket holder to sit in. You might think that this is the fault of online booking engines then, but that isn't actually the case - with the old National Reservation System (NRS) it was not possible to tell whether there was no availability because the train was fully sold out, or because reservations were not set up for some reason - the response was the same.

Since the pandemic started, a new reservation system (RARS2 - Rail Availability and Reservation Service) has replaced the previous one. This is more sophisticated in a few ways, and it should be possible (so far as I know) with this to be able to distinguish between trains that are "sold out", and trains that don't have reservations set up (although they ordinarily would).

As a result, it should also be possible for online booking engines (and also station TIS and TVMs) to indicate that a service is fully booked and that, although you can buy a ticket for it, you are not guaranteed to get a seat, and that you should consider getting a different service instead; this is quite a manageable UX challenge really.

So that's it, really. There isn't actually any need for the very blunt approach of compulsory reservations for all inter-city services in order to solve the problem that I mentioned at the start. (There was a year ago, when we were on the old reservation system, but that problem has gone away now.) It's a problem that can be resolved through understanding and using the available data, to nudge customers' behaviour in the right way. And it isn't even that difficult to solve, really.

Most importantly of all, the context that we find ourselves within at the moment must be appreciated. The railway desperately needs to attract back previous customers and to win new customers (the latter to fill the revenue hole left by a drop in commuters and, probably, business travel). And to do that it has to avoid unnecessarily creating situations where customers have every right to be aggrieved, and are likely not only to not travel again, but also to tell others about their experience (both through social media and through their own social networks). If the railway doesn't solve problems like this, then revenue won't get to the levels we need it to get to, and even more cutbacks and closures will happen.
 

Watershed

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Coach doesn’t compete against the private car as its biggest competition and neither does the airline.
I really wish we could draw the discussion back to the one mode railways have haemorrhaged business to in the past year, and that’s to people driving their own car.
Exactly. And to make a comparison with driving, at busy times of year like around bank holidays, people who decide to travel by car know to expect traffic and disruption.

If they end up in a snarl-up on the motorway they might be frustrated but they won't be surprised, and they most certainly won't decide to abandon driving forever or to lambast Highways England because they didn't get a clear run.

It is really just a problem of communication and expectation management. The rail industry needs to develop ways of making clearer the expected loading on busy trains. They need to emphasise that they will get you there, but it may involve standing if you don't have a reservation.

Highways England wouldn't shut down certain motorway junctions, or force you to book your space on the motorway in advance. Neither should any TOC force people to have reservations.
 

gka472l

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This is indeed the main reason for compulsory reservations being introduced.

To put a bit more flavour on it, there have been many (pre-Covid) instances where trains leaving Kings Cross especially (and also other stations) have been grossly overbooked, with many customers having to stand for very long journeys (such as London to Edinburgh). I've seen this myself several times on Fridays and Sundays.

It goes without saying that this leads to a very poor customer experience, and a view (both by those directly affected, and those who were on the train but had a seat) that train travel is not good at all, at any price really.

But we need to ask: why did this happen? The answer was that it was because, although all reservable accommodation was fully reserved, online booking engines continued to sell tickets, even though there was no seat for the ticket holder to sit in. You might think that this is the fault of online booking engines then, but that isn't actually the case - with the old National Reservation System (NRS) it was not possible to tell whether there was no availability because the train was fully sold out, or because reservations were not set up for some reason - the response was the same.

Since the pandemic started, a new reservation system (RARS2 - Rail Availability and Reservation Service) has replaced the previous one. This is more sophisticated in a few ways, and it should be possible (so far as I know) with this to be able to distinguish between trains that are "sold out", and trains that don't have reservations set up (although they ordinarily would).

As a result, it should also be possible for online booking engines (and also station TIS and TVMs) to indicate that a service is fully booked and that, although you can buy a ticket for it, you are not guaranteed to get a seat, and that you should consider getting a different service instead; this is quite a manageable UX challenge really.

So that's it, really. There isn't actually any need for the very blunt approach of compulsory reservations for all inter-city services in order to solve the problem that I mentioned at the start. (There was a year ago, when we were on the old reservation system, but that problem has gone away now.) It's a problem that can be resolved through understanding and using the available data, to nudge customers' behaviour in the right way. And it isn't even that difficult to solve, really.

Most importantly of all, the context that we find ourselves within at the moment must be appreciated. The railway desperately needs to attract back previous customers and to win new customers (the latter to fill the revenue hole left by a drop in commuters and, probably, business travel). And to do that it has to avoid unnecessarily creating situations where customers have every right to be aggrieved, and are likely not only to not travel again, but also to tell others about their experience (both through social media and through their own social networks). If the railway doesn't solve problems like this, then revenue won't get to the levels we need it to get to, and even more cutbacks and closures will happen.
Excellent post, a few things in there I wasn't aware of yet. Thank you.
 
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