Modern Railways: LNER and compulsory reservations

[HSTEd]

No, you would set expectation before even attempting to travel that the train is full.

They will then make other travel arrangements.
And next time they won't even both to try the railway.

And then the railway will haemmorhage even more money than it does now and arrogantly demand more taxpayer subsidies.

EDIT:

There are very very few truly long rail journeys in the UK, its London-North Of Scotland and that is about it.
With HS2 and line speed improvements and new rolling stock these journeys get shorter and shorter and shorter.

The British railway is inevitably going to undergo a process of metro-isation over time, especially if any sort of HS2 to Scotland proposal comes to pass.

 

[DB]

Depends how often that actually happens in practice that you can't rebook to an earlier train? If it was only once or twice a year on the busiest days, then it might well be "reasonable".

Clearly you haven't experienced the reality. The trains on that part of the ECML are, under normal circumstances, wedged from early afternoon until later in the evening every single Friday.

Or they'll just see "Sold Out" and shrug their shoulders and accept it as one of those things in life.

So they won't accept having to stand as one of those things, but will accept being told they have to wait hours or until the next day? And you really think this is what would happen? They wouldn't have a rant at the staff and on twitter?

No, you would set expectation before even attempting to travel that the train is full.

So it's not possible to set expectations that if you don't book then you might have to stand because people won't accept that without complaint, but they will accept being told that they can't get on the train at all? And possibly not be able to travel at all that day?

I have to wonder whether this year of house arrest has caused some people to develop very distorted views of how the general public behaves and what it expects!

 

[43074]

Or they'll just see "Sold Out" and shrug their shoulders and accept it as one of those things in life.

Or they'll just board it anyway and stand, or take a seat and hope for the best like people did at busy times before Covid.

 

[gka472l]

Sometimes in life we have to accept that it’s not always going to be possible to meet all our expectations, some of which are unrealistic.

Changing to a system which is going to disadvantage a great many realistic users to suit a minority with unrealistic / unreasonable expectations is not the way to go (IMO).

What you do is book the latest you will reasonably need then move it earlier if you need to. SNCF have exchange machines at TGV stations for that exact purpose.

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The question is how that same person would react if told the trains were full for the rest of the day.

My personal opinion is that purchase of a ticket would only be possible if a seat was available.....not really a problem most of the time.

 

[DB]

Dealt with it when I worked in a supermarket. The proportion of customers who (face to face) would get genuinely upset/angry if their particular brand of bread (or whatever) was unavailable was very tiny indeed.

Really not of the same magnitude though, is it?

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My personal opinion is that purchase of a ticket would only be possible if a seat was available.....not really a problem most of the time.

So basically at times when the largest number of people want to travel, you think it's fine to turn a load of them away?

It doesn't really help if reservations are available on a Monday evening if lots of people want to travel on a Friday, does it?

What all this is showing is the utter contempt which some in the rail industries have for passengers...

 

[HSTEd]

If it's a choice of standing for an hour or two to get where I'm going now, or waiting an hour or three or a day or two before I can travel, I will chose standing every time.

The vast majority of rail passengers will be a substantial fraction of the way to their destination before the next available train, and that one might not have seats available either.

EDIT:

London-Grantham, you can stand on a climate controlled train for ~1hr08, or you can stand 30m-1hr on a not climate controlled King's Cross, then sit for 1hr08 on your train. And that still assumes the next train has space.

 

[Ianno87]

They will then make other travel arrangements.
And next time they won't even both to try the railway.

Or they'll find another weekend for their trip away.

Clearly you haven't experienced the reality. The trains on that part of the ECML are, under normal circumstances, wedged from early afternoon until later in the evening every single Friday.

Hence why I said "depends". I wasn't pretending to know the answer.

So they won't accept having to stand as one of those things, but will accept being told they have to wait hours or until the next day? And you really think this is what would happen? They wouldn't have a rant at the staff and on twitter?

Much less likely, in my view. People don't generally rant at (say) the cinema or the airline when they are sold out.

So it's not possible to set expectations that if you don't book then you might have to stand because people won't accept that without complaint, but they will accept being told that they can't get on the train at all? And possibly not be able to travel at all that day?

Clearly, the traditional approach doesn't work any more in the days of social media.

I have to wonder whether this year of house arrest has caused some people to develop very distorted views of how the general public behaves and what it expects!

I'm merely taking the view point of "why don't more of the ~80% of non-regular rail users use the train more, and how is LNER trying to appeal to them with this?", which is obviously at odds with how the (generally) regular rail users on this forum make journey decisions.

I think it is absolutely right that UK Rail plc needs to think about fitting into wider evolving public expectations, and not simply pander to what is (to some extent) something of a "clique" of existing rail users.

 

[londonteacher]

So say I'm working in Doncaster on a Friday and need to get back to York but can't predict the time. Not bothered whether I get a seat.

Do you think it reasonable that I might have to wait 3 hours at the station to do this 25 minute journey or more because all the trains are booked solid?

I assume you don't work in a job where this sort of thing happens...

Actually, I do think this is reasonable.

If I am travelling by other means of transport such as coach I would have to do the same thing unless there was space on an earlier service. The same as if I am travelling by air domestically.

 

[HSTEd]

Or they'll find another weekend for their trip away.

I very much doubt it, these trips involve far more moving parts than just transport.
Ultimately they will simply drive.

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If I am travelling by other means of transport such as coach I would have to do the same thing unless there was space on an earlier service.

Who makes a 25 minute journey by coach? That's a bus journey.

The same as if I am travelling by air domestically.

Are 25 minute journeys by air common?

 

[Ianno87]

I very much doubt it, these trips involve far more moving parts than just transport.
Ultimately they will simply drive.

A few will. Some won't. Depends on lots of factors. E.g. "simply driving" from London to Edinburgh is generally unappealing compared to just going another weekend instead. The same way people will defer plans today if the cheapest fares have sold out.

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Really not of the same magnitude though, is it?

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Why not?

 

[londonteacher]

Who makes a 25 minute journey by coach? That's a bus journey.

The point was about intercity travel between Doncaster and York. Yes, the journey is short but the same principle applies.

Are 25 minute journeys by air common?

As above.

 

[43074]

Actually, I do think this is reasonable.

If I am travelling by other means of transport such as coach I would have to do the same thing unless there was space on an earlier service. The same as if I am travelling by air domestically.

Really, for a 20 minute trip between York and Doncaster?

It's not a huge problem for longer distance travellers who would typically confirm their travel arrangements weeks or months before travelling, but it penalises short distance customers who expect that sort of flexibility. If there's a chance you will have to wait 3 hours before making a 20 minute journey people will not even consider travelling by train any more.

 

[gka472l]

Really not of the same magnitude though, is it?

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So basically at times when the largest number of people want to travel, you think it's fine to turn a load of them away?

It doesn't really help if reservations are available on a Monday evening if lots of people want to travel on a Friday, does it?

What all this is showing is the utter contempt which some in the rail industries have for passengers...

Or to put it another way, you think wedging trains is acceptable......we're never going to agree of this topic in a million years are we, and as for your last comment, contempt would be the 'cram them in' attitude you appear to have...

 

[Ianno87]

Really, for a 20 minute trip between York and Doncaster?

It's not a huge problem for longer distance travellers who would typically confirm their travel arrangements weeks or months before travelling, but it penalises short distance customers who expect that sort of flexibility. If there's a chance you will have to wait 3 hours before making a 20 minute journey people will not even consider travelling by train any more.

Even if the chance is only (for arguments sake) 1%?

 

[londonteacher]

Really, for a 20 minute trip between York and Doncaster?

It's not a huge problem for longer distance travellers who would typically confirm their travel arrangements weeks or months before travelling, but it penalises short distance customers who expect that sort of flexibility. If there's a chance you will have to wait 3 hours before making a 20 minute journey people will not even consider travelling by train any more.

Yes really.

It's not hard to get a reservation and there will, I would estimate, be space 95+% of the time.

 

[yorksrob]

It's a ridiculous idea, and the railway should have no truck with it, certainly not "because the coaches and other assorted transport dregs do it"

 

[Domh245]

Or to put it another way, you think wedging trains is acceptable......we're never going to agree of this topic in a million years are we, and as for your last comment, contempt would be the 'cram them in' attitude you appear to have...

The contemptable attitude is turning people away from the railway just because TOCs are scared of getting bad press on twitter

 

[Ianno87]

The contemptable attitude is turning people away from the railway just because TOCs are scared of getting bad press on twitter

But plenty of Joe Public also think packing passengers onto trains is "contemptible" too.

 

[DB]

Or to put it another way, you think wedging trains is acceptable......we're never going to agree of this topic in a million years are we, and as for your last comment, contempt would be the 'cram them in' attitude you appear to have...

The answer is more capacity. In any normal industry that's what any normal business would do. The railways are a mass transport system, and this sort of open hostility towards a sizeable chunk of the customer base just shows considerable arrogance, and a belief that the railways operate for their own convenience not that of their customers.

I am at a loss to understand how cramming them in shows contempt but telling them to sod off and come back at a time which better suits the railways somehow isn't!

 

[gka472l]

The contemptable attitude is turning people away from the railway just because TOCs are scared of getting bad press on twitter

That would probably go for any company, railway or not.....no one wants bad press.

 

[yorksrob]

But plenty of Joe Public also think packing passengers onto trains is "contemptible" too.

Joe public already has the option of obtaining a reservation if it is worried about this.

 

[DB]

Yes really.

It's not hard to get a reservation and there will, I would estimate, be space 95+% of the time.

That is going to depend on where and when. Clearly you are unfamiliar with the Friday afternoon concept.

 

[Ianno87]

The answer is more capacity. In any normal industry that's what any normal business would do. The railways are a mass transport system, and this sort of open hostility towards a sizeable chunk of the customer base just shows considerable arrogance, and a belief that the railways operate for their own convenience not that of their customers.

I am at a loss to understand how cramming them in shows contempt but telling them to sod off and come back at a time which better suits the railways somehow isn't!

It's not as if the railway is not trying to add capacity.

But there's only so much that can reasonably be done if the entire world turns up for the 1600 off Kings Cross on Maundy Thursday afternoon - no amount of "capacity" helps if everybody is trying to get on the same train, unrestricted.

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Joe public already has the option of obtaining a reservation if it is worried about this.

As upthread, no good if the train is so packed you can't get to your seat. Or to the toilet. Or have the trolley come through. Etc etc.

 

[gka472l]

The answer is more capacity. In any normal industry that's what any normal business would do. The railways are a mass transport system, and this sort of open hostility towards a sizeable chunk of the customer base just shows considerable arrogance, and a belief that the railways operate for their own convenience not that of their customers.

I am at a loss to understand how cramming them in shows contempt but telling them to sod off and come back at a time which better suits the railways somehow isn't!

There's no 'magic train tree' to accommodate all these masses you seem to think should be able to travel without regard to available capacity. Hypothetical question for you....major football game down in London, five thousand people rush and buy open tickets to get there for that day, there's only space for 2500 with the available services, and maybe only 1 or 2 spare sets available for an additional (given that a full service runs on the other routes by the TOC), what would you suggest then? There's going to be an awful lot of people with tickets who expect to get there.....what should I tell them? Occasions like these are really the only time it would be an issue....

 

[yorksrob]

As upthread, no good if the train is so packed you can't get to your seat. Or to the toilet. Or have the trolley come through. Etc etc.

In my experience, these situations tend to occur as a result of unusual circumstances such as disruption, in which case even compulsory reservations will be pointless.

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There's no 'magic train tree' to accommodate all these masses you seem to think should be able to travel without regard to available capacity. Hypothetical question for you....major football game down in London, five thousand people rush and buy open tickets to get there for that day, there's only space for 2500 with the available services, and maybe only 1 or 2 spare sets available for an additional (given that a full service runs on the other routes by the TOC), what would you suggest then? There's going to be an awful lot of people with tickets who expect to get there.....what should I tell them? Occasions like these are really the only time it would be an issue....

I've been to large events and caught public transport afterwards, in which case it really is imperative to get as many people away as possible.

 

[londonteacher]

That is going to depend on where and when. Clearly you are unfamiliar with the Friday afternoon concept.

Actually, I am not unfamiliar with it at all as I previously have been in a situation where I travelled home on a Friday. However, as Friday afternoons are a busier time then this allows for all customers to have comfort and will appease most people looking to get away for the weekend or return home from working in cities after a long day.

Ultimately though this is what the DfT are trialling with LNER so whether we (on this forum) like it or not is irrelevant. If customers in the surveys they will undoubtedly do like it will stay and expand to other TOCs and if they don't then it will go.

 

[43074]

Even if the chance is only (for arguments sake) 1%?

That depends on when you are travelling though as the chances of trains being sold out will be somewhat more of a possibility travelling south at 16:00 on a Friday than attempting to travel north at 06:00 in the morning, any day of the week.

 

[gka472l]

In my experience, these situations tend to occur as a result of unusual circumstances such as disruption, in which case even compulsory reservations will be pointless.

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I've been to large events and caught public transport afterwards, in which case it really is imperative to get as many people away as possible.

Yes, but what when there is too many? And we've been very close a few times with normal running, even with an additional or two......

 

[Dave91131]

In my experience, these situations tend to occur as a result of unusual circumstances such as disruption, in which case even compulsory reservations will be pointless.

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I've been to large events and caught public transport afterwards, in which case it really is imperative to get as many people away as possible.

But with compulsory reservations the rate at which people can board their trains to head home will be significantly slower.

Can any posters who are in favour of this codswallop give a solution to this?

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, but what when there is too many? And we've been very close a few times with normal running, even with an additional or two......

I can remember a couple of occasions when trains have either been lengthened (TPE from Man Pic after the rugby) or additional trains have been summoned (Northern from Horwich Parkway after a concert).

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But with compulsory reservations the rate at which people can board their trains to head home will be significantly slower.

Can any posters who are in favour of this codswallop give a solution to this?

Indeed. For the avoidance of doubt, I am against this codswallop