Modern Railways: LNER and compulsory reservations

[37424]

Perhaps it is broken, given LNER complaints about packed trains on Maundy Thursdays and Sunday Evenings must be noteworthy? This is LNER's solution.



Yes. I bet the vast majority of LNER's real passengers will not find this the slightest inconvenience whatsoever, in an increasingly smartphone and e-ticket driven world. The railway needs to innovate exactly like this to meet what passengers increasingly come to expect - a ticket with a guaranteed seat.

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Which, 99% of the time, will be a non-issue.

Except in reality it could be more than that, in which case I will just resort to the car instead. I've already experienced this with full trains in Europe on busy Summer weekends, and the beauty of the UK was that we didn't have to put up with this nonsense, and how many people will decide to just ignore it?

 

[DB]

I remember doing this on the TGV when touring in France with a rover ticket nearly 40 years ago. Walk up to machine, select departure, pay reservation fee, take reservation/boarding card, job done.

Of course British exceptionalism means that we can't do anything that simple.

That's the equivalent of HS2, which will probably be similar. It's not providing local services between stations fairly close together (in some cases, the only local services).

 

[Taunton]

Same for me. Compulsory reservations would be the absolute end of any long-distance rail travel for me.

Me too. I'm a considerable business user of their services in normal times, going out in the morning is reasonably predictable, returning in the evening - who knows when we will finish. The train is commonly no more than half full.

Whatever is the point of building up the frequency to "turn up and go", and then saying you can't do that, you must reserve just a specific one.

 

[DB]

Perhaps it is broken, given LNER complaints about packed trains on Maundy Thursdays and Sunday Evenings must be noteworthy? This is LNER's solution.

So how do you think this is actually going to work? Will people forego half of their Sunday away in order to travel back earlier? Or take the Monday off work and stay an extra night? Will they take an extra day off at Easter in order to travel a day earlier?

Or if they are denied train travel when they want to travel, will they just think 'sod it' and drive instead if they can?

 

[37424]

That's the equivalent of HS2, which will probably be similar. It's not providing local services between stations fairly close together (in some cases, the only local services).

Yes they will likely push this for HS2 in which the classic network ought to remain non compulsory

 

[Ianno87]

So how do you think this is actually going to work? Will people forego half of their Sunday away in order to travel back earlier? Or take the Monday off work and stay an extra night? Will they take an extra day off at Easter in order to travel a day earlier?

Or if they are denied train travel when they want to travel, will they just think 'sod it' and drive instead if they can?

Travelling an hour earlier or later if necessary is not "half" a Sunday.

They might not drive - they might go the following weekend instead if it's booked up.

And, in these days of flexible working, if you're staying at relatives then the idea of having to be back in the office on Monday morning is not necessarily still the case any more. Spend an extra day away and work remotely.

 

[Dave91131]

Except in reality it could be more than that, in which case I will just resort to the car instead. I've already experienced this with full trains in Europe on busy Summer weekends, and the beauty of the UK was that we didn't have to put up with this nonsense, and how many people will decide to just ignore it?

Can / could one be charged a penalty fare for not having a reservation on a reservation only service?

If one didn't have a reservation I could see a conversation going along the lines of "you need to leave at the next station sir as this is a reservation only service" and the response "the next station is my destination so I'll be leaving anyway thank you very much".

 

[bramling]

It's dead easy to make a reservation at up to 5 minutes notice via the LNER website on a smart phone.

And 99.9999% of passengers who are haulage-bashing or travelling spontaneously will be competent with using a smartphone. It's increasingly a non-issue.

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Which is usually the next available train anyway, once you're at the station. So you might as well get a reservation at the same time.

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Even if you can pop on a website (on phone) and change your booked train freely with about 30 seconds effort?

And if my phone battery has died?

If it’s (supposedly) so easy to change reservations then what’s the point of having them in the first place?

 

[DB]

Travelling an hour earlier or later if necessary is not "half" a Sunday.

They might not drive - they might go the following weekend instead if it's booked up.

But if people go away for the weekend, they don't want to have to cut it short (by whatever amount) because that suits the railways - and on a Sunday afternoon / evening it's quite likely that all the trains will be just as busy anyway.

And the following weekend is likely to be similar if it's a normal weekend. If it's the easter weekend, they will be going then because going away at Easter, with more days off, is what people do.

It basically sounds like you are expecting people to inconvenience themselves in order to suit the railways - and they mostly won't want to do that, and why should they?

 

[JonathanH]

passengers who are haulage-bashing

...need to be choose to be able to board a train as it arrives in the platform unless they have information in advance. Of course, there are sources to help with knowing the identity of LNER trains in advance now.

However, I would suggest that this is a market the railway wouldn't actually mind putting off.

 

[Ianno87]

And if my phone battery has died?

Make sure it doesn't (as anybody with sense would do anyway).

Or find a coffee shop. Or a station waiting room with a plug. Etc etc etc.

 

[43096]

All utterly predictable - and not acceptable for the reasons given above.

When this came up as "being temporary during the pandemic", will those who fell for this line then, now admit that it is, as many of us predicted, the thin end of the wedge?

 

[Ianno87]

But if people go away for the weekend, they don't want to have to cut it short (by whatever amount) because that suits the railways - and on a Sunday afternoon / evening it's quite likely that all the trains will be just as busy anyway.

And the following weekend is likely to be similar if it's a normal weekend. If it's the easter weekend, they will be going then because going away at Easter, with more days off, is what people do.

It basically sounds like you are expecting people to inconvenience themselves in order to suit the railways - and they mostly won't want to do that, and why should they?

People are already prepared to do this for airlines, which are compulsory reservation. People design their weekends to meet available flights.

 

[DB]

Make sure it doesn't (as anybody with sense would do anyway).

Or find a coffee shop. Or a station waiting room with a plug. Etc etc etc.

Do you work on the railways? I ask because you seem to have the attitude seen in a number of railway staff - that the railways are doing people a big favour by transporting them, and as passengers they should be duly grateful and accept any inconvenience without question.

 

[bramling]

Make sure it doesn't (as anybody with sense would do anyway).

Or find a coffee shop. Or a station waiting room with a plug. Etc etc etc.

I don’t get the point about “anybody with sense”. It shouldn’t need to be necessary to have a phone just to travel around.

It’s all a load of hassle, for what benefit over what we already had for long-distance trains?

 

[43096]

People are already prepared to do this for airlines, which are compulsory reservation. People design their weekends to meet available flights.

You really don't get it, do you?

 

[bramling]

People are already prepared to do this for airlines, which are compulsory reservation. People design their weekends to meet available flights.

Rail isn’t airline, and shouldn’t be attempting to emulate it. Indeed turn-up-and-go is a great advantage rail has over air for domestic journeys, especially with air being essentially stuck with the copious security procedures forever more.

 

[DB]

People are already prepared to do this for airlines, which are compulsory reservation. People design their weekends to meet available flights.

And one of the main selling points of the railway is that it is turn up and go. Taking that away benefits nobody apart from the railways.

Flights are between two places a fair distance apart, they are not services offering a number of origin and destination points, and they have never been turn up and go.

 

[Ianno87]

Do you work on the railways? I ask because you seem to have the attitude seen in a number of railway staff - that the railways are doing people a big favour by transporting them, and as passengers they should be duly grateful and accept any inconvenience without question.

I don’t get the point about “anybody with sense”. It shouldn’t need to be necessary to have a phone just to travel around.

It’s all a load of hassle, for what benefit over what we already had for long-distance trains?

People seem to like having seats, and complain when they don't...

You really don't get it, do you?

Don't get what?

What this forum doesn't seem to "get" is that a large number of passengers actually might like things that are heresey to most on here.

In summer last year, LNER were quite clearly the most successful long distsnce operator at actually getting people back on trains, with compulsory reservations.

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Rail isn’t airline, and shouldn’t be attempting to emulate it. Indeed turn-up-and-go is a great advantage rail has over air for domestic journeys, especially with air being essentially stuck with the copious security procedures forever more.

You can turn up and go. You just need to find a phone or a ticket machine at least 5 minutes before.

 

[JonathanH]

I think the railway companies will have done analysis of how many people now travel on advance tickets and recognise that it is a large proportion of travellers. The natural step of 'normal' passengers having moved to this form of ticketing, unless the quotas have been used up, is that this becomes the 'normal' form of ticketing, no matter whether there has been a history of 'walk-up' travel.

 

[DarloRich]

Is it possible to link to the article somewhere so the whole context of the discission can be understood?

 

[RailWonderer]

Choice is king. If someone wants to risk standing to be on the train of their choice, let them, but advertise that reservations are recommended on certain trains. Making passengers plan their day around the railways is not progression, its inconvenience. Personally I mostly book on LNER and have rarely bought walk ups with them, but on Avanti for example, the walk up fares are more reasonable since more of the route has competition.

It would get messier when a booked 10 car 80x is short formed as a 5 car and many reservations have to be revised. Then what if a passenger forgets to do so, is the ticket then not valid? The UK's rail system is unique and will never be like the continent.

 

[Ianno87]

And one of the main selling points of the railway is that it is turn up and go. Taking that away benefits nobody apart from the railways.

Flights are between two places a fair distance apart, they are not services offering a number of origin and destination points, and they have never been turn up and go.

Not correct. The BA Manchester-Heathrow etc shuttles were once, in effect turn up and go (even to the point of having standby aircraft).

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I think the railway companies will have done analysis of how many people now travel on advance tickets and recognise that it is a large proportion of travellers. The natural step of 'normal' passengers having moved to this form of ticketing, unless the quotas have been used up, is that this becomes the 'normal' form of ticketing, no matter whether there has been a history of 'walk-up' travel.

And even if you're on a walk up ticket, for a long distance journey you are pretty likely to have a seat reservation anyway.

 

[DB]

People seem to like having seats, and complain when they don't...

They can book one of they want that certainty, and if there are regularly more people than a train can hold, the railways need to do something about that - as a commercial bus operator would do.

You can turn up and go. You just need to find a phone or a ticket machine at least 5 minutes before.

If I am turning up without knowing the time, It'll probably be on the way back. I will already have a ticket. What is the benefit of having to go through that extra hassle? And what if they decide the train is 'full'? I don't mind standing in a wedged vestibule if needed for something like Doncaster-York, but if they start imposing booking then they will also impose maximum numbers standing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Its a non issue if the train you want isn't full, and you have a smart phone and are adept at using it.

My primary concern is full trains. It’ll make it easier to stick a 5 car out because it makes it a bit easier for them rather than having to match capacity to demand otherwise you get a very visible problem.

With 400m trains this is unlikely to be a major issue on HS2 just as it isn’t on Eurostar (very rare for one to be actually full) but with 5 car 80x knocking about it could very much be an issue on LNER, particularly at busy times of year.

 

[DB]

Not correct. The BA Manchester-Heathrow etc shuttles were once, in effect turn up and go (even to the point of having standby aircraft).

One example does not alter the fact that as a general rule railways in this country are turn up and go, and airlines are not.

 

[Ianno87]

They can book one of they want that certainty, and if there are regularly more people than a train can hold, the railways need to do something about that - as a commercial bus operator would do.



If I am turning up without knowing the time, It'll probably be on the way back. I will already have a ticket. What is the benefit of having to go through that extra hassle? And what if they decide the train is 'full'? I don't mind standing in a wedged vestibule if needed for something like Doncaster-York, but if they start imposing booking then they will also impose maximum numbers standing.

I do think it would be reasonable to offer a limited number of standing places on each train, with an "I don't mind standing" reservation.

 

[37424]

People seem to like having seats, and complain when they don't...



Don't get what?

What this forum doesn't seem to "get" is that a large number of passengers actually might like things that are heresey to most on here.

In summer last year, LNER were quite clearly the most successful long distsnce operator at actually getting people back on trains, with compulsory reservations.

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You can turn up and go. You just need to find a phone or a ticket machine at least 5 minutes before.

Well except when I was in Milan and all the Trains to Paris that day were full.

The point is turn up and go is a significant difference from other Transport such as Coach and Airline where you do have to generally book in advance. if that difference disappears then I may go by Car instead or if I have to book in advance anyway I may take the opportunity to save some money and go by coach instead.

 

[Ianno87]

One example does not alter the fact that as a general rule railways in this country are turn up and go, and airlines are not.

Absolutely nothing (AIUI) to stop you standing outside the doors of Stansted Airport and booking a Ryanair flight on your phone 2 hours before it is due to leave (it just might cost a bit, and subject to having a spare seat)

 

[Bletchleyite]

If I am turning up without knowing the time, It'll probably be on the way back. I will already have a ticket. What is the benefit of having to go through that extra hassle? And what if they decide the train is 'full'? I don't mind standing in a wedged vestibule if needed for something like Doncaster-York, but if they start imposing booking then they will also impose maximum numbers standing.

Most likely 0.