Modern day Pacer

[A0]

I am not convinced there is any market for new DMUs in the long term.
The routes where electrification "would never be viable" are so small in number that it is likely to be more beneficial to simply electrify them anyway to avoid maintaining all the infrastructure for diesel units.

For example, the Far North Line/Kyle of Lochalsh line is so lightly used that it could easily be single end fed from Inverness, and would probably require almost no gauging work thanks to an almost complete lack of over-bridges along their lengths.

Except you've got the capital cost of wiring such routes, implementing the infrastructure in terms of feeder stations etc - for lines which it is accepted are never going to be profitable and therefore offer a return on investment. Far easier to buy some form of 'off the peg' DMU.

 

[HSTEd]

Except you've got the capital cost of wiring such routes, implementing the infrastructure in terms of feeder stations etc - for lines which it is accepted are never going to be profitable and therefore offer a return on investment. Far easier to buy some form of 'off the peg' DMU.

You could feed from Inverness which would likely have a feeder station anyway to support the Highland Main line. The capital cost would be rather low thanks to the lack of required gauging work and the single track nature of the routes.

And there would be no "off the peg" DMU since noone will be building DMUs for the British loading gauge at that point.

 

[andyb2706]

Sorry but I am a sceptic when the authorities say the North needs extra stock (ie the authorities say the 185's need an extra coach.....oh and by the way you will not be getting that extra coach that the 185's need) and the other favourite is that the South and Midlands get the new stock and the North has the hand me downs. When was the last brand new spanking train delivered to commuter operator in the north?

 

[northwichcat]

The routes where electrification "would never be viable" are so small in number that it is likely to be more beneficial to simply electrify them anyway to avoid maintaining all the infrastructure for diesel units.

Remember 'never be viable' doesn't just mean lines with an infrequent service. The viability of electrification of Chester-Crewe have been questioned due to there being more than one bridge over the railway line every mile. A way of getting around that (dis-continuous electrification) has been looked at but that would mean something like a class 319, 323 or 350 wouldn't be able to run the Chester-Crewe shuttles after electrification work and a special type of commuter EMU would need to be designed and built or the shuttles would need to remain as DMU.

 

[HSTEd]

Remember 'never be viable' doesn't just mean lines with an infrequent service. The viability of electrification of Chester-Crewe have been questioned due to there being more than one bridge over the railway line every mile. A way of getting around that (dis-continuous electrification) has been looked at but that would mean something like a class 319, 323 or 350 wouldn't be able to run the Chester-Crewe shuttles after electrification work and a special type of commuter EMU would need to be designed and built or the shuttles would need to remain as DMU.

At such a high bridge concentration then it might even be advisable to forget overhead wiring and go with and overhead conductor rail like that used in tunnels (the Swiss have a section on open line).

Chester will be done too eventually, it is just a matter of time. (I believe the costing of raising all the bridges simply depressed the BCR enough that it was not considered to be in the first tranche of projects, rather than made it so it would never ever be considered)

 

[northwichcat]

When was the last brand new spanking train delivered to commuter operator in the north?

Depends how you define 'commuter' operation. Some of the services that got 175s initially under FNW were not more than 90 minutes in length, even though other services that saw 175s were much longer than that.

If you mean a fleet or trains which were only used on commuter services and not intended to be used on regional services then it would be the 333s in the former RRNE area and 323s in the former RRNW area.
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(I believe the costing of raising all the bridges simply depressed the BCR enough that it was not considered to be in the first tranche of projects, rather than made it so it would never ever be considered)

Considering there are no intermediate stations lowering the track on Chester-Crewe would probably be a better option than raising the bridges.

 

[AndyLandy]

When was the last brand new spanking train delivered to commuter operator in the north?

The Pennine Desiros are a good example! They arrived 2005/06-ish.
London Midland got new Class 350 Desiros which run commuter services in the North at about the same time.

And on the note of Class 350s, TransPennine will be getting a few more of those in the very near future.

 

[transmanche]

You can find an exception to suit any rule if you look long and hard enough.

There are 313s doing 'Coastway' services between Brighton and Portsmouth in the south - similar time and distance. Arguably that should be a better standard of unit as well.

Quite. I didn't mention the Pacer-operated Hexham-Middlesbrough service - as I wouldn't expect many people do that as a through journey, with a big passenger changeover at Newcastle. And for Newcastle-Middlesbrough, you can do that journey faster by changing at Darlington. But Newcastle-Carlisle is a journey without alternative faster options.

I know nothing about the Coastway services, what faster alternatives there are or how many people do the full Brighton-Portsmouth run. I do know 313s and they are a much better unit than a Pacer, that they're well suited to a frequent-stopping service and the Southern refurb looks like a good one. The only thing wrong with the 313s is the lack of toilets.

As I understand it, I thought the Tyne Valley line was split with a mix of 156s and Pacers?

Yes in general you'd expect a 156 on the Newcastle-Carlisle runs, but it seems that certain services are diagrammed for a Pacer. The Hexham-Middlesbrough/Nunthorpe services and Metrocentre-Morpeth services are (IME) all Pacers.

Something to do with "demand" no doubt but just to introduce some facts:[snip stats]

So is your argument that it's OK to operate unsuitable units so long as not many people are inconvenienced?

 

[AndyLandy]

I know nothing about the Coastway services, what faster alternatives there are or how many people do the full Brighton-Portsmouth run. I do know 313s and they are a much better unit than a Pacer, that they're well suited to a frequent-stopping service and the Southern refurb looks like a good one. The only thing wrong with the 313s is the lack of toilets.

My experience of the Coastway services from Southampton to Brighton are that people are invariably there for the long haul. I've never used the train for anything other than one end to the other, and I know lots of people who go that way to get to London and Kent. Southampton to Brighton takes 1h45. Doing that on a 313 without any toilets sounds pretty vicious to me!

 

[starrymarkb]

My experience of the Coastway services from Southampton to Brighton are that people are invariably there for the long haul. I've never used the train for anything other than one end to the other, and I know lots of people who go that way to get to London and Kent. Southampton to Brighton takes 1h45. Doing that on a 313 without any toilets sounds pretty vicious to me!

Though I suspect that would be more tolerable then the 4 hours the 700 bus takes (which also sees a fair bit of end to end bus pass bandits)

 

[AndyLandy]

Though I suspect that would be more tolerable then the 4 hours the 700 bus takes (which also sees a fair bit of end to end bus pass bandits)

Wow! Now that's dedication!

As for by train, I'd go via Clapham Junction, except it's more expensive and takes even longer. Tedious as the Coastway route is, it's still the quickest way to get to Brighton from here...

 

[A0]

So is your argument that it's OK to operate unsuitable units so long as not many people are inconvenienced?

Well, I don't consider Pacers unsuitable for Newcastle - Hexham - Carlisle.

From a capacity and linespeed perspective they're fine.

They would be totally unsuitable for a Preston - Carlisle service along the WCML, for example where their top speed would be far below the linespeed and cause congestion.

Similarly on the ECML between Peterborough and York, they be similarly inappropriate.

And running 'unsuitable' stock (your term) doesn't "inconvenience" people - there's a service which they can choose whether or not to use. Inconveniencing people would be not running a service at all whilst leaving the Pacers laid up at Heaton all day.

 

[transmanche]

Well, I don't consider Pacers unsuitable for Newcastle - Hexham - Carlisle.

I guess you've never travelled on one on a winter's evening then...

 

[A0]

I guess you've never travelled on one on a winter's evening then...

Wrong again: York to Seamer and Carnforth to Morecambe spring to mind.

 

[transmanche]

Well, I don't consider Pacers unsuitable for Newcastle - Hexham - Carlisle.

I guess you've never travelled on one on a winter's evening then...

Wrong again: York to Seamer and Carnforth to Morecambe spring to mind.

Erm, firstly how can I be wrong again?!?!

Secondly I was clearly referring to the Carlisle-Newcastle journey being discussed - about an hour longer than the examples you quoted.

Try a 1h40 trip when it's -5C outside and see if you're just as enthusiastic about Pacers on that route then.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Though I suspect that would be more tolerable then the 4 hours the 700 bus takes (which also sees a fair bit of end to end bus pass bandits)

How much is the adult single fare for the train journey from Portsmouth to Brighton in comparison to the same journey on the Coastliner 700 ?

The reason why so many ENCTS holders use this bus is that many are those on holiday who view an end-to-end ride ride on the Coastliner 700 as a day out with a difference that enables them to see the area between those two settlements.

 

[Paul_10]

Well, I don't consider Pacers unsuitable for Newcastle - Hexham - Carlisle.

I agree, nothing wrong with using them on that line at all, and that is coming from someone who travels on a pacer on the Tyne Valley Line at times from Newcastle to Carlisle and back again. Whilst most passengers would rather a 156 to be used instead, I don't think the capacity of the line justifies for it to be just 156 trains only. As for droughts in the Winter, then that is the downside of pacer trains but the ex ATN ones does have heating on them so in that respect, it still feels comfortable too me but that is not a valid reason not to run them on a particular stretch of line because if that was the case, you may aswell withdrawn all pacer trains during the winter months or whenever we have proper cold weather!

I have no idea what may happen in 2019 when the pacers are suppose to be withdrawn, but hopefully something is in place and yes its likely to be 2nd hand stock but as others have stated, a substantial refurbishment and then to your average passenger, it will look and feel like a new train and hopefully that what the 319's will feel like when they eventually get delivered.

 

[transmanche]

I don't think the capacity of the line justifies for it to be just 156 trains only.

If you believe a 156 provides too much capacity (not that I agree with you), then the appropriate unit to replace it is a 153 - not a Pacer.

As for droughts in the Winter, then that is the downside of pacer trains but the ex ATN ones does have heating on them

Well whoopee-doo(!) So they're really draughty, but some of them have working heaters - and that's OK for a 1h40 journey in the middle of winter? :roll:

Pacers weren't designed for operating that kind of service. 156s were.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I have no idea what may happen in 2019 when the pacers are suppose to be withdrawn, but hopefully something is in place and yes its likely to be 2nd hand stock but as others have stated, a substantial refurbishment and then to your average passenger, it will look and feel like a new train and hopefully that what the 319's will feel like when they eventually get delivered.

Just an idle thought. Do any forum members see that the Government (of various permutations) who will be in power when the 2019 date arrives will have second thoughts on insisting the terms of the DDA being fully adhered to. Will any of the current headline parties be more stringent in their adherence to the raison d'etre for the reasons why this Act became law ?

 

[jon0844]

You surely can't extend a deadline that was already ridiculously long in the first place. It would be outrageous and set a dangerous precedent.

 

[Paul_10]

If you believe a 156 provides too much capacity (not that I agree with you), then the appropriate unit to replace it is a 153 - not a Pacer.

Well whoopee-doo(!) So they're really draughty, but some of them have working heaters - and that's OK for a 1h40 journey in the middle of winter? :roll:

Pacers weren't designed for operating that kind of service. 156s were.

If they are really that uncomfortable and cold for you then why don't you just use the 685 Arriva/Stagecoach bus service instead in the winter time, a reasonable suggestion and you should be a bit warmer... :roll:

And yep, I think a 153 will probably be more suitable on most services other than a 156 in terms of capacity but Heaton don't have 153's so this is very unlikely to occur.

Just because you don't like pacers does not mean they are not suitable for that line, I been on a pacer for 1 hour 30-40 mins before and I'm still alive. Aslong they get you from A to B then I could not care less really.

 

[transmanche]

If they are really that uncomfortable and cold for you then why don't you just use the 685 Arriva/Stagecoach bus service instead in the winter time, a reasonable suggestion and you should be a bit warmer... :roll:

How pathetic. Tell you what, you get them to sort integrated ticketing with National Rail and way of getting back from Carlisle on a Sunday evening - and job's a good 'un.

Until then, I'll have a train that's fit for purpose please.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You surely can't extend a deadline that was already ridiculously long in the first place. It would be outrageous and set a dangerous precedent.

It seems to me that what appears "outrageous" to the populace at large then becomes "a matter for further consultation" by any British government should it suit their purposes at any specific point in time.

A recent matter showing how Government thinking to suit their own ends has a logic all of its own is the "111" health telephone system project that was let out in various tranches, then found to have financial implications for the lessees who are now announcing their decision to withdraw from these to which the Government riposte at a press gathering was...

"The system is working well".....hock:

 

[northwichcat]

You surely can't extend a deadline that was already ridiculously long in the first place. It would be outrageous and set a dangerous precedent.

Well yes the whole point of the end of 2019 deadline was that DMUs have a 30 year shelf life so it was anticipated that the Sprinters would all be replaced or have a fully compliant refurbishment by then and here we are fussing about Pacers which it was assumed would be long gone by then.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well whoopee-doo(!) So they're really draughty, but some of them have working heaters - and that's OK for a 1h40 journey in the middle of winter? :roll:

I did a Manchester-Knutsford journey on a 142 during the very cold snap a couple of years ago when the exterior temperature was -15oC. Saying it was draughty on the sections where the train does 75mph was an understatement!

 

[AndyLandy]

I'm not sure what all this 'fit for purpose' nonsense is meant to be proving.

The Pacers were built in the 1980s to deal with a very specific circumstance, the railways were in decline and many rural routes were becoming marginal. By putting together what is quite literally a bus on rails, BR were able to continue to provide services along routes which would otherwise have closed.

30 years later, the landscape is very different. Rail travel is on the up again, and we're desperately trying to make up for years of under-investment. The Pacers should have been replaced 10 years ago, but it looks like they may go on for the best part of another 10.

As for their 'suitability' for certain routes, it's quite apparent that they're running on routes far better served by other types of stock. But if that other stock isn't available, we have to make do.

If I'm on the platform at Cuddington and the train to Manchester is a 142, I'll get on it. Far better that than no train at all. Even if waiting an hour would mean a 156, I'll still take the Pacer.

On the other hand, I'd be delighted to see that route ran exclusively with 158s, or even better, electrified with a nice new-design EMU.

What's 'appropriate' for that line? Well, that depends on where you get on/off and where you're travelling from/to. It's a commuter service in the mornings, taking people from rural areas like Delamere, Cuddington, Greenbank into Chester or Northwich. It's also a rural regional service, taking about an hour to take people from the above stations to Manchester. At peak times, you'll see a pair of 150s on the route. Other times you'll get either a single 150 or 142. If you're lucky, you'll get the fabled 156. There's not really such a thing as 'appropriate' stock.

I don't like Pacers much. I think they need replaced with something better, and sooner rather than later. The reason they were built has long since expired and they're well past retirement age now. But that just isn't possible at the moment. At least the refurbished ones are clean, with comfortable-ish seating and a working toilet and they can still get you from A to B.

 

[northwichcat]

At peak times, you'll see a pair of 150s on the route. Other times you'll get either a single 150 or 142.

The only booked pairs of trains I know of on weekdays are:

06:33 Chester-Stockport 2 x 150s (rear unit only opened at guard's discretion)
09:17 Manchester-Chester 150+142 (rear unit only opened at guard's discretion)
15:04 Chester-Manchester 2 x 150s (both units open from Greenbank/Northwich)

The above two services that are 2 x 150s also have Buxton line services as part of the same diagram.

There are two all day 142+150 diagrams on Saturday, following on from a fiasco last year where two consecutive services in the Manchester direction were often too full to let everyone on at Knutsford meaning Mobberley and Ashley effectively had a 3 hour gap in service due to two trains being too full to pick anyone up.

One of the busiest services of the day, 07:17 Manchester-Chester which loads up to around 250 in school term time on departure from Hale is booked for a single 150. The number using the 06:58 Chester-Manchester is above the seating capacity of the booked single 150 and increasing year on year.

If I'm on the platform at Cuddington and the train to Manchester is a 142, I'll get on it. Far better that than no train at all. Even if waiting an hour would mean a 156, I'll still take the Pacer.

Agreed. You wouldn't wait an hour to avoid a Pacer. However, on occasions when I'm trying to do Altrincham to Knutsford late afternoon/early evening when the options are:
16:46 Pacer booked + risk of having to stand
17:14 Sprinter booked. Under normal circumstances no problem getting a seat.
17:35 Pacer booked + risk of having to stand

Guess which one I plan to catch?

There is only 1 booked weekday 156 diagram on the Mid-Cheshire line these days as far as I'm aware which is:
08:17 Manchester-Chester
10:04 Chester-Manchester
12:17 Manchester-Chester

The crew then switch to the 150 left at Chester (off the 09:17 Manchester-Chester mentioned above) and a Lime Street crew arrive on a 150 and take the 156, leaving the 150 to join up to the 150 off the 13:17 Manchester-Chester to let the 15:04 Chester-Manchester operate as 2 x 150s. The 156 off the 12:17 Manchester-Chester 156 finishes up doing one of the evening peak Liverpool-Manchester Oxford Rd services later on.

 

[AndyLandy]

09:17 Manchester-Chester 150+142 (rear unit only opened at guard's discretion)

This would be the service I saw. I was waiting the 1025-ish Cuddington to Manchester, the train on the other platform would have been the 0917 off Manchester. It was definitely 2x150s though. Perhaps that just happened to be the stock that was available that day.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As for their 'suitability' for certain routes, it's quite apparent that they're running on routes far better served by other types of stock. But if that other stock isn't available, we have to make do.....What's 'appropriate' for that line? Well, that depends on where you get on/off and where you're travelling from/to. It's a commuter service in the mornings, taking people from rural areas like Delamere, Cuddington, Greenbank into Chester or Northwich. It's also a rural regional service, taking about an hour to take people from the above stations to Manchester.

The are "rural" sections in some routes between two quite large areas, such as the rural parts of the Chester-Altrincham-Manchester Piccadilly service that you describe above and the rural parts of the Manchester Airport-Manchester Piccadilly-Atherton-Southport service.

Class 142 Pacers are a common denominator on both of these two North-West routes.

 

[SprinterMan]

The only booked pairs of trains I know of on weekdays are:

06:33 Chester-Stockport 2 x 150s (rear unit only opened at guard's discretion)
09:17 Manchester-Chester 150+142 (rear unit only opened at guard's discretion)
15:04 Chester-Manchester 2 x 150s (both units open from Greenbank/Northwich)

The above two services that are 2 x 150s also have Buxton line services as part of the same diagram.

There are two all day 142+150 diagrams on Saturday, following on from a fiasco last year where two consecutive services in the Manchester direction were often too full to let everyone on at Knutsford meaning Mobberley and Ashley effectively had a 3 hour gap in service due to two trains being too full to pick anyone up.

One of the busiest services of the day, 07:17 Manchester-Chester which loads up to around 250 in school term time on departure from Hale is booked for a single 150. The number using the 06:58 Chester-Manchester is above the seating capacity of the booked single 150 and increasing year on year.



Agreed. You wouldn't wait an hour to avoid a Pacer. However, on occasions when I'm trying to do Altrincham to Knutsford late afternoon/early evening when the options are:
16:46 Pacer booked + risk of having to stand
17:14 Sprinter booked. Under normal circumstances no problem getting a seat.
17:35 Pacer booked + risk of having to stand

Guess which one I plan to catch?

There is only 1 booked weekday 156 diagram on the Mid-Cheshire line these days as far as I'm aware which is:
08:17 Manchester-Chester
10:04 Chester-Manchester
12:17 Manchester-Chester

The crew then switch to the 150 left at Chester (off the 09:17 Manchester-Chester mentioned above) and a Lime Street crew arrive on a 150 and take the 156, leaving the 150 to join up to the 150 off the 13:17 Manchester-Chester to let the 15:04 Chester-Manchester operate as 2 x 150s. The 156 off the 12:17 Manchester-Chester 156 finishes up doing one of the evening peak Liverpool-Manchester Oxford Rd services later on.

After working the 1217 MAN-CTR, the 156 runs empty to Helsby and then forms the afternoon Ellesmere Port trains, eventually ending up at Warrington Bank Quay, before running empty to Liverpool.

Adam