Mock execution at the Bluebell railway

[Snapper]

Bad taste or fair game?

http://railwayeye.blogspot.com/2009/05/war-crime-at-bluebell.html

 

[Oracle]

As a military historian I find that 'tableau' quite uncomprehensible. Being polite. There was an almighty outcry not long ago at a chap in SS uniform doing a Nazi salute whilst being passengered in a preserved vehicle. I regret that sometimes people get too carried-away for their own good when dressing-up.

 

[Aictos]

I think it was all done in good taste, it certainly makes it more realistic.

If people get offended by that then maybe we should outlaw all films showing such actions which mean historic footage of WW2 going into the bin etc...

I for one, if I was going to take part in a similar thing would do my upmost best to get into character, be it a member of the gestapo, military police, civilian etc...and leave it at that.

If I wasn't taking part and decided to rant and rave or start goosestepping and making Nazi salutes then yes it would be in bad taste.

 

[Snapper]

I think it was all done in good taste, it certainly makes it more realistic.

Realistic?

Exactly how many summary executions were carried out on UK rail stations in WW2?

 

[Yank 119]

There was an almighty outcry not long ago at a chap in SS uniform doing a Nazi salute whilst being passengered in a preserved vehicle.

Maybe he was just flailing?

 

[Daimler]

Maybe he was just flailing?

Seriously though, I'm a member at the Bluebell, and I think this is in rather poor taste - while these WW2 days may be an opportunity for re-enactors to have fun, I think the main attraction for the public (though I may be wrong) is the general atmosphere - that's why I prefer '1940s weekend' to 'WW2 weekend'. You know, the music, the vintage vehicles, the trains, the posters everywhere, the dress, the 'rationing', air raid precautions, etc. All of that is what makes it a fun event! The military aspect - in my opinion - shouldn't really go further than a few 'home guard' patrols.

 

[Oliver]

Seriously though, I'm a member at the Bluebell, and I think this is in rather poor taste - while these WW2 days may be an opportunity for re-enactors to have fun, I think the main attraction for the public (though I may be wrong) is the general atmosphere - that's why I prefer '1940s weekend' to 'WW2 weekend'. You know, the music, the vintage vehicles, the trains, the posters everywhere, the dress, the 'rationing', air raid precautions, etc. All of that is what makes it a fun event! The military aspect - in my opinion - shouldn't really go further than a few 'home guard' patrols.

Agreed. I went to a WWII weekend at the NNR several years ago and it was quite interesting and quite fun, with a few Captain Mainwaring types, etc. There is absolutely no need for nazi insignia, mock executions, etc, and frankly those involved should have had more sense.

 

[Phoenix]

Realistic?

Exactly how many summary executions were carried out on UK rail stations in WW2?

Not being funny but how do you know?
Alot of things happened in the war all of which were awful so rather than question the details we choose to accept it.

I do think this was in good taste as even children understand the concept of war just don't have a concept of how graphic it was.
And as for the German tourists etc well they understand that a war happened between us and them and it was resolved.
It's not like they put up a sign saying "Germans are evil"

 

[Snapper]

Not being funny but how do you know?
Alot of things happened in the war all of which were awful so rather than question the details we choose to accept it.

I do think this was in good taste as even children understand the concept of war just don't have a concept of how graphic it was.
And as for the German tourists etc well they understand that a war happened between us and them and it was resolved.
It's not like they put up a sign saying "Germans are evil"

How do I know?

It's called studying history. Would you care to show your evidence that any did?

As for this being 'a lesson to kids' - fantastic: we now have mock summary executions as a form of entertainment for children.

It's a travesty of the truth, history and in poor taste.

 

[Phoenix]

How do I know?

It's called studying history. Would you care to show your evidence that any did?

As for this being 'a lesson to kids' - fantastic: we now have mock summary executions as a form of entertainment for children.

It's a travesty of the truth, history and in poor taste.

Okay there it was a friendly question so could we tone it down abit yeah.
But no I don't have any evidence as usually not everything get's into the history books but yes your right im wrong I guess.
Just to save my own confidence "I'm a geologist"

As for the general consensus on the event well if you feel it was in bad taste or a bad idea least we can say this is the first instance of this.

Last question and please belive that I mean this in a friendly way...........
Are you going to complain to them about this because you do have more involvement in the industry and for you to have such a strong opinion I would like to see you chased it up.

 

[Snapper]

As for the general consensus on the event well if you feel it was in bad taste or a bad idea least we can say this is the first instance of this.

Last question and please belive that I mean this in a friendly way...........
Are you going to complain to them about this because you do have more involvement in the industry and for you to have such a strong opinion I would like to see you chased it up.

Sadly it's not the first instance of bad taste displayed at one of these events. Nor the first time history has been warped just to keep a bunch of people who like to dress up in uniforms happy.

The negative PR from this has already had an effect. The story has been carried in The Sun newspaper today. As one experienced Fleet St journalist has pointed out "The worst aspect of this debacle is that it feeds the view of most Fleet Street journos that railway enthusiasts are either saddos or weirdos!"

http://railwayeye.blogspot.com/2009/05/war-crime-at-bluebell.html

As for chasing it up. Yes, I and others have.

 

[Phoenix]

The negative PR from this has already had an effect. The story has been carried in The Sun newspaper today. As one experienced Fleet St journalist has pointed out "The worst aspect of this debacle is that it feeds the view of most Fleet Street journos that railway enthusiasts are either saddos or weirdos!"

http://railwayeye.blogspot.com/2009/05/war-crime-at-bluebell.html

As for chasing it up. Yes, I and others have.

Let's be honest the though this is the Bluebell we are talking about Personally I consider them to be narrow minded and do what the hell they want and damn the rest of us.
I mean the April fools diesel gala wasn't one bit funny to me as it displayed the railway is Narrow minded old timers.

Although personally I am not offended by this war event I do see where your coming from snapper and I am glad you and othere do have the face value of the rest of us in mind.

 

[Daimler]

Let's be honest the though this is the Bluebell we are talking about Personally I consider them to be narrow minded and do what the hell they want and damn the rest of us.
I mean the April fools diesel gala wasn't one bit funny to me as it displayed the railway is Narrow minded old timers.

Although personally I am not offended by this war event I do see where your coming from snapper and I am glad you and othere do have the face value of the rest of us in mind.

Oi! Watch who you're calling a narrow-minded old timer!

What would we want one of those diesel galas for, corrupting our wonderful railway, besmirching the carefully preserved steam-ness of the Bluebell?



Seriously though, I think the whole steam/diesel debacle has been hugely over-hyped - reading 'Steam Railway' magazine you'd think they'd started running pacers or something...

I'd rather they stuck to steam, if only because I like the idea of steam locos operating 'proper' freight trains. As for running diesels, it's not really appropriate for the line's 'ambience'. The Bluebell's main 'thing' is its pre-nationalisation - and especially pre-grouping - stock. That's what makes it special - the ornate liveries, non-corridor coaches, the mets, etc. That's what makes the line more-or-less unique.

While I like heritage diesels (indeed, probably my favourite event at the GCR is the 1960s weekend, with the steam/diesel mix), the Bluebell suits steam better - the stock, the stations' atmosphere - steam feels right there. That's not to say I'm averse to them having diesels, simply that if it were my choice I wouldn't bother, and wouldn't go to a diesel gala were it on - but I wouldn't stop anyone, and certainly wouldn't kick up a fuss like some have done if one was 'on' - I found it all quite funny, frankly!

With regards to it appearing in the media, this disappoints me, but I can't say it was an acceptable thing to do - I just hope it doesn't do too much damage - let's not forget that whatever you might think about the Bluebell (and it's my favourite railway line), it is historically the public 'face' of the railway heritage industry - more than any other operation, which makes this doubly frustrating.

 

[Phoenix]

Oi! Watch who you're calling a narrow-minded old timer!

What would we want one of those diesel galas for, corrupting our wonderful railway, besmirching the carefully preserved steam-ness of the Bluebell?



Seriously though, I think the whole steam/diesel debacle has been hugely over-hyped - reading 'Steam Railway' magazine you'd think they'd started running pacers or something...

I'd rather they stuck to steam, if only because I like the idea of steam locos operating 'proper' freight trains. As for running diesels, it's not really appropriate for the line's 'ambience'. The Bluebell's main 'thing' is its pre-nationalisation - and especially pre-grouping - stock. That's what makes it special - the ornate liveries, non-corridor coaches, the mets, etc. That's what makes the line more-or-less unique.

While I like heritage diesels (indeed, probably my favourite event at the GCR is the 1960s weekend, with the steam/diesel mix), the Bluebell suits steam better - the stock, the stations' atmosphere - steam feels right there. That's not to say I'm averse to them having diesels, simply that if it were my choice I wouldn't bother, and wouldn't go to a diesel gala were it on - but I wouldn't stop anyone, and certainly wouldn't kick up a fuss like some have done if one was 'on' - I found it all quite funny, frankly!

To be completely honest with you I by steam magazine monthly and I do love the majority of steam and day by day I am trying to learn more about steam.
My problem with the Bluebell is the fact that Diesels are mad to be seen as some filthy joke which I find silly because the second you say that you might as well just say "men only and also only over 18" because they cut down the profits they can make.

And my main argument to them is two words "PILOT SCHEME" did they realize there are many classes of diesel and electric that shared duties with steam engine. my favourite heritage images are those which have both steam and diesel as both carry different themes and have different qualities in there spirit.

The thing some steam and diesel and electric fans forget is that there isn't much of a gap between steam and modern traction due to the fact that Evening star is only 48 years old and there are various classes of diesels that have the last built that are older than her.

Sorry to rant on and I know only a select few hold their stupid beliefs true but I feel that maybe rail enthusiasts need to start looking at past and present.

 

[O L Leigh]

Holy cow...!!!

I've no interest in the politics of various railway preservation societies or their policies on re-enactments, but this is a wrong 'un.

From a purely historical POV, the British forces (even the irregulars like the Home Guard) would not have carried out summary executions if they had arrested a suspected spy. Unlike certain other world powers at the time, the British were keen to ensure that the unwritten rules of warfare were followed. That's not to say that there weren't regrettable incidents (e.g. Bomber Command's targetting of the German civilian population), but the treatment of POW's was fair to the extent that large numbers of Italian and, to a lesser degree, German POW's remained in the UK even after the end of hostilities to start new lives in preference to returning home.

In addition, the policy of the British was not to execute enemy spies but to "turn" them so that they could be used as trusted channels through which they could feed counter-intelligence. It was thanks to methods such as this that the D-Day offensive was so successful because it persuaded the Germans that the invasion in Normandy was a diversionary attack in advance of the main invasion in the Calais area. This lead them to tie up valuable military resources in the Pas-de-Calais area which gave the Allies the break they needed to establish a bridgehead in Normandy.

Therefore this particular tableau cannot be considered a "re-enactment".

As to whether or not such a feature is suitable for a family event, this should surely be a no-brainer. A WW2 event should be troops embarking, a NAAFI canteen dispensing tea, sweethearts saying farewell, RAF/USAF flypasts and Glenn Miller numbers on the tannoy. Yes the war was grim, but it never really affected the railways in that way.

These events should really be turning the spotlight on the war's unsung heroes and telling the story of the drivers and firemen driving trains loaded with hundreds of tons of munitions in black-out conditions through the night. It's hard to believe now, but locos had to be driven with a black-out hood in order to hide the glow of the firebox. This meant that the drivers had to effectively drive blind and rely on his route knowledge to work out where the train was. A quick peak under the hood may be enough to attract the attention of a passing German bomber.

These guys were civilians and need to have their courage recognised. We need to be telling people about the deeds of railwaymen like Benjamin Gimbert and James Nightall. THIS is what these events should be about. Whoever it was at the Bluebell who thought up this idea for a sham re-enacted mock execution really needs to be taken out and shot. It does no-one any favours and disrespects the past.

O L Leigh

 

[ikorodu]

Holy cow...!!!

I've no interest in the politics of various railway preservation societies or their policies on re-enactments, but this is a wrong 'un.

From a purely historical POV, the British forces (even the irregulars like the Home Guard) would not have carried out summary executions if they had arrested a suspected spy. Unlike certain other world powers at the time, the British were keen to ensure that the unwritten rules of warfare were followed. That's not to say that there weren't regrettable incidents (e.g. Bomber Command's targetting of the German civilian population), but the treatment of POW's was fair to the extent that large numbers of Italian and, to a lesser degree, German POW's remained in the UK even after the end of hostilities to start new lives in preference to returning home.

In addition, the policy of the British was not to execute enemy spies but to "turn" them so that they could be used as trusted channels through which they could feed counter-intelligence. It was thanks to methods such as this that the D-Day offensive was so successful because it persuaded the Germans that the invasion in Normandy was a diversionary attack in advance of the main invasion in the Calais area. This lead them to tie up valuable military resources in the Pas-de-Calais area which gave the Allies the break they needed to establish a bridgehead in Normandy.

Therefore this particular tableau cannot be considered a "re-enactment".

As to whether or not such a feature is suitable for a family event, this should surely be a no-brainer. A WW2 event should be troops embarking, a NAAFI canteen dispensing tea, sweethearts saying farewell, RAF/USAF flypasts and Glenn Miller numbers on the tannoy. Yes the war was grim, but it never really affected the railways in that way.

These events should really be turning the spotlight on the war's unsung heroes and telling the story of the drivers and firemen driving trains loaded with hundreds of tons of munitions in black-out conditions through the night. It's hard to believe now, but locos had to be driven with a black-out hood in order to hide the glow of the firebox. This meant that the drivers had to effectively drive blind and rely on his route knowledge to work out where the train was. A quick peak under the hood may be enough to attract the attention of a passing German bomber.

These guys were civilians and need to have their courage recognised. We need to be telling people about the deeds of railwaymen like Benjamin Gimbert and James Nightall. THIS is what these events should be about. Whoever it was at the Bluebell who thought up this idea for a sham re-enacted mock execution really needs to be taken out and shot. It does no-one any favours and disrespects the past.

O L Leigh

Hear hear...

An unforgivable error of judgement by the bluebell.

What do we get next - trains to the camps?

I find the whole idea of a 'family' event that is centred around the greatest loss of life in history to be idiotic in the extreme. These events should be remembered, yes, but not used as a money spinner for a heritage railway.

Ikorodu

 

[mumrar]

It's a very tenuous line to cite this may have happened during the war and we must not forget. It is widely reported that summary abuse and base sexual acts were often carried out in prison camps, but it's hardly a reason to get your handcuffs and condoms out! (I know that's a harsh statement, but this against people saying children should see mock executions at a heritage event)

 

[Hampshire Unit]

Even though I agree that history should not be forgotten and that mistakes from our past should be remembered simply to learn from, But there is a time and place for everything.
I am certain that if anyone was there with very young kids they would have been outraged. I have a 5 year old and the last thing I would want to take him too is a mock execution.
There seems to bee a real lack of common sense here, In an age where knife and gun crime is starting to plague our youngsters do we really need to show kids maybe as young as 3 or 4 a “mock” execution done for entertainment purposes ??
Be Honest what parent would want to take there young children to see the steam trains only to be left explaining what death is on the return trip home?