Mobile coverage on railways - reforms under Labour

[Mag_seven]

"If you want to entertain yourself, please look out of the window and enjoy the view"

Well sort out the seat to window alignment first before you do that.

 

[chris11256]

Isn't there a trial for using Starlink (heard it on the Green Signals podcast) that if it works could revolutionise this subject?

It’s definitely used on railways elsewhere. The Brightline service from Orlando to Miami uses it for their onboard WiFi. Plenty of YouTube videos showing people getting some impressive speeds. I suspect problems in the UK would potentially be cost & space for the equipment.

 

[ricoblade]

It’s definitely used on railways elsewhere. The Brightline service from Orlando to Miami uses it for their onboard WiFi. Plenty of YouTube videos showing people getting some impressive speeds. I suspect problems in the UK would potentially be cost & space for the equipment.

Thanks for that. In the podcast (that of course I can't now find), they said that the difficulty was getiting an aerial that will fit on a UK unit. That has now been accomplished (maybe as a prototype) and is on trial on one unit.

 

[Buzby]

Not sure what O2 have to do with Airwave? It's nothing to do with them

It was started as BT Airwave in 2000 and was rebranded as 02 Airwave in 2002 and remained that way until Motorola (the Handset manufacture) bought out their interest in 2016. Their sites still proclaim ‘O2 Airwave’, but Motorola provided the bulk of the TETRA firmware. It was supposed to close in 2017 but the replacement cellular system wasn’t/isn’t ready so it limps on.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jul 2024 ==

A potential problem is that, as mentioned above, any tower used would requires some level of planning permission. And most NR ones are fairly lightweight structures designed only to take the equipment for GSMR. Any new poles would need to be constructed while the railway is not operating or built alongside and without affecting the GSMR tower until it can be switched over.

Not round here they’re not! They invariably are tall lattice masts - certainly not ‘lightweight’. Planning permissions have become quite relaxed these days, even as ‘permitted development’ where the network simply gives notice. Adding to an existing structure would be a box-ticking exercise.

 

[Energy]

Not round here they’re not! They invariably are tall lattice masts - certainly not ‘lightweight’. Planning permissions have become quite relaxed these days, even as ‘permitted development’ where the network simply gives notice. Adding to an existing structure would be a box-ticking exercise.

Perhaps lighter-weight than most mobile masts is a better description.

Permitted development for mobile masts only applies for replacement for existing structures (under 20m) and those in new greenfield areas (30m or 25m in sensitive areas).

 

[poffle]

It was started as BT Airwave in 2000 and was rebranded as 02 Airwave in 2002 and remained that way until Motorola (the Handset manufacture) bought out their interest in 2016. Their sites still proclaim ‘O2 Airwave’, but Motorola provided the bulk of the TETRA firmware. It was supposed to close in 2017 but the replacement cellular system wasn’t/isn’t ready so it limps on.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jul 2024 ==


Not round here they’re not! They invariably are tall lattice masts - certainly not ‘lightweight’. Planning permissions have become quite relaxed these days, even as ‘permitted development’ where the network simply gives notice. Adding to an existing structure would be a box-ticking exercise.

Motorola split into two businesses around 2010. The handset business ( Motorola Mobility) is now part of Lenovo which is Chinese. The networks business ( Motorola Solutions) which provides Tetra networks etc. is still US based.

( It's a bit like Nokia who are one of the major suppliers of telecommunication equipment but sold off their handset business years ago.)

 

[Gigabit]

Building masts wouldn't resolve coverage inside tunnels, one way or the other NR are going to have to be forced to allow MNOs ability to install infrastructure on their land, closer to the railway.

With a nationalised, centrally run network, this is something that could be done across the network with a single operator. It would result in significant cost savings vs each TOC doing their own version. See the success - relatively - of the London Underground scheme.

 

[poffle]

Getting all the TOCs, ROSCOs and train manufacturers to work together with Network Rail and the mobile networks needs a push from the top.

The mobile networks already have an initiative where they all share infrastructure in rural areas. The mobile networks are quite keen to share radio access network infrastructure. It costs a lot of money. I'd imagine they'd do similar for high bandwidth access to trains which are probably quite disruptive to the standard mobile radio networks

The Shared Rural Network. https://srn.org.uk/

 

[signed]

A bit off-topic, but at least it's wifi and could work.

On long-distance SBB trains (with the exception of the new Stadler Giurno trains), you have FreeSurf which is a toggle in an app, that just tells the ISP that mobile data shouldn't be charged while in Bluetooth range of the train.

From what I can tell, It is known to be massively unreliable (both the app and the service)

 

[Gigabit]

Getting all the TOCs, ROSCOs and train manufacturers to work together with Network Rail and the mobile networks needs a push from the top.

The mobile networks already have an initiative where they all share infrastructure in rural areas. The mobile networks are quite keen to share radio access network infrastructure. It costs a lot of money. I'd imagine they'd do similar for high bandwidth access to trains which are probably quite disruptive to the standard mobile radio networks

The Shared Rural Network. https://srn.org.uk/

Surely won't be an issue much longer as above, because there will hopefully be one unified brand/operator/company.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2024 ==

A bit off-topic, but at least it's wifi and could work.

On long-distance SBB trains (with the exception of the new Stadler Giurno trains), you have FreeSurf which is a toggle in an app, that just tells the ISP that mobile data shouldn't be charged while in Bluetooth range of the train.

From what I can tell, It is known to be massively unreliable (both the app and the service)

I thought coverage on the French trains was really good now because of them having placed masts every few metres?

 

[signed]

I thought coverage on the French trains was really good now because of them having placed masts every few metres?

On LGVs it is definitely really good (there are posts around every 2.5km). On regional lines, there can be spotty but usually quite reliable, even in remote lines like Brest-Quimper.

You mostly need to be on Orange network to get anything though (the WiFi in TGV trains uses Orange 4G/5G network)

 

[Gigabit]

On LGVs it is definitely really good (there are posts around every 2.5km). On regional lines, there can be spotty but usually quite reliable, even in remote lines like Brest-Quimper.

You mostly need to be on Orange network to get anything though (the WiFi in TGV trains uses Orange 4G/5G network)

So how did they do it where the UK can't? Are these just standard masts placed on the railway network?

 

[signed]

So how did they do it where the UK can't? Are these just standard masts placed on the railway network?

A single entity running trains, competition in the mobile ISPs and laws :
Coverage of regional train networks (TER) is actually mandated by law. 80% of the regional network must be covered by 4/5G by 2027.

For LGV, it's mostly that it's purpose-built lines with not that many signal blocking points so it's probably quite a bit cheaper and easier to implement.
As far as I can tell, the slowest a train goes and the straightest the line, the easiest on the infrastructure it is.

A majority of the LGV lines now have uninterrupted coverage (outside of tunnels) and the outfitting of the rest of the LGV network is set to happen trickely.

With Free Mobile pushing competition further and further, It's also the goal of Orange to cover most train transport with 4/5G, recently they outfitted the Rennes Metro with LTE (including in the tunnels).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2024 ==


What actually striked me is how little coverage there is down in the London Underground.

Be it in the District line by Aldgate East or even in the newer tunnels of the Jubilee, I got absolutely nothing while roaming on both EE or O2.

Compare that to Paris, where in every single line you can have streaming-grade LTE on Orange.

I understand it's a lot deeper and deploying LTE down there could be massively difficult but still.

 

[Gigabit]

@signed What does "uninterrupted coverage" mean? Is this you'll have full signal on all of the lines?

 

[signed]

@signed What does "uninterrupted coverage" mean? Is this you'll have full signal on all of the lines?

I don't really know what that means, it's direct from Orange promotional materials

I would believe it means you aren't dropped under 4G on your journey, but again it would be massively different based on a multitude of factors

 

[Gigabit]

I don't really know what that means, it's direct from Orange promotional materials

I would believe it means you aren't dropped under 4G on your journey, but again it would be massively different based on a multitude of factors

Have you tested it?

 

[signed]

Have you tested it?

Travelling on LGV Paris-Le Mans-Rennes, I can watch on my s24Ultra a 1440p YouTube for the whole length of the journey witb very little issues

 

[Recessio]

Isn't there a trial for using Starlink (heard it on the Green Signals podcast) that if it works could revolutionise this subject?

Would work well out in the open, but I don't think that's going to be much good in tunnels. Also as you need to maintain line-of-sight to a satellite, would you need a movable/adjustable antenna tracking the satellite position, and would that fit within the already tight loading gauge?

 

[edwin_m]

Would work well out in the open, but I don't think that's going to be much good in tunnels. Also as you need to maintain line-of-sight to a satellite, would you need a movable/adjustable antenna tracking the satellite position, and would that fit within the already tight loading gauge?

Starlink uses a phased array which "steers" itself electronically with no moving parts. As it's used on Ukrainian sea drones it's probably pretty robust. However there is still the problem of obstruction of line of sight, which is pretty unavoidable with the antenna in a fixed position.

 

[Gigabit]

Travelling on LGV Paris-Le Mans-Rennes, I can watch on my s24Ultra a 1440p YouTube for the whole length of the journey witb very little issues

Thanks. So we don't need any fancy Starlink here, just more masts.

 

[signed]

Thanks. So we don't need any fancy Starlink here, just more masts.

Let's see what they do for HS2

 

[mike57]

Travelling on LGV Paris-Le Mans-Rennes

In general coverage is excellent on other routes as well, e.g. Tunnel - Paris, and Paris - Lyon, as well as the Paris LGV avoiding line to the east of Paris, apart from a patchy area around CDG airport. (understandable). There is also good coverage on the Paris Metro and RER, even in the tunnels.

The French seem able to deliver infrastructure projects without the issues that bog down developments in the UK, I know they have more space which makes things easier, but as an outsider looking in I dont see the NIMBYS being able to stall things in France to the same degree as they can here.

 

[signed]

The French seem able to deliver infrastructure projects without the issues that bog down developments in the UK

It really depends what projects, some will go through while some will be a massive pain to implement because of opposition. The added benefit of economies scale is also helping

It's not shiny everywhere though, there is A LOT of red-taping here as well, the Grand Paris Express network is a mess with deadlines and cost overrun. The RER network has a massive capacity issue on B and D that is either unfixable or SNCF/RATP/French Gov. are unwilling to fix...

The new LGV Bordeaux-Dax-Basque Country is massively opposed by residents (80% of them reject the project in a recent poll) for example.

For the mobile coverage issue, I really think the 4-way competition between the carriers does help bolstering infrastructure with Orange (a private company spinoff of the original carrier France Télécom) having the foothold they're the one chosen to implement the infrastructure.

The main issue with it is that you get basically no coverage in trains if you aren't on their network (and they are by far the most expensive carrier here)

 

[mike57]

The main issue with it is that you get basically no coverage in trains if you aren't on their network

When we travel in France we 'roaming' and so usually end up on Orange. I am not sure how this works between the various national carriers. In the UK we have 3 and O2 accounts and with 3 pay a small upgrade to 'roam' when on the continent.

 

[signed]

I am not sure how this works between the various national carriers

There are contracts between the different carriers to roam. Those are usually findable deep on the ISP's website

This is list for Orange plan subscribers

Réseaux mobiles partenaires par pays à travers le monde - Orange

Quelle est la couverture mobile dans les autres pays ? Votre smartphone est-il compatible sur les réseaux à l'international ? Voyagez connecté avec Orange.

boutique.orange.fr

When I was roaming in the UK, I basically was either on O2 or Vodafone (but usually O2)

 

[Mikey C]

It is ironic that the times I most need 5G/4G - on a train or coach in the middle of nowhere - there is no adequate signal. I don't know if my iPhone drops down to 2G when I'm lost on a Scottish mountain (and I have no desire to test that theory), but that another occasion when you really need a signal, and probably won't have one. So any plan to improve coverage of hard-to-reach areas gets my vote.

Yes, we can use on-board wifi: but you have to register, and at 8pm tonight you won't be able to watch the England game because streaming services are generally banned.

There are part of the Chilterns just outside London where you struggle to get anything more than an emergency call signal!

 

[Gigabit]

To be able to have excellent coverage, the MNOs need to be able to more easily build sites close to the railway. At the moment Network Rail seems a nightmare so the MNOs use public assets instead which are often just a bit too far away. If we could get them trackside as I assume the French do, this would be resolved.

There are many areas where the MNOs cannot build, e.g. MOD land - where a solution on Network Rail land will have to be used as there is no workaround.

 

[jon0844]

@signed What does "uninterrupted coverage" mean? Is this you'll have full signal on all of the lines?

It will mean you can hand over seamlessly from one site to another, so your calls and data won't be interrupted (either seeing a call drop, or a pause in your data flow/streaming).

With a nice fast connection, if you're streaming on a modern device then it can download quite far ahead to hide such interruptions. This means you may not notice gaps, but you will if you're web browsing or instant messaging, or even flicking through TikTok and it has to load a new video there and then, rather than YouTube/Netflix having already cached 20-30 seconds or whatever.

In the UK, a number of networks have had to spend a great deal of money ripping out Huawei infrastructure to replace with other vendor kit - and that inevitably delayed the expansion of their networks and other projects. Not just from a cost perspective, but also a manpower perspective. If your engineers are at existing sites changing kit, they're not building out new kit.

 

[Gigabit]

It will mean you can hand over seamlessly from one site to another, so your calls and data won't be interrupted (either seeing a call drop, or a pause in your data flow/streaming).

With a nice fast connection, if you're streaming on a modern device then it can download quite far ahead to hide such interruptions. This means you may not notice gaps, but you will if you're web browsing or instant messaging, or even flicking through TikTok and it has to load a new video there and then, rather than YouTube/Netflix having already cached 20-30 seconds or whatever.

In the UK, a number of networks have had to spend a great deal of money ripping out Huawei infrastructure to replace with other vendor kit - and that inevitably delayed the expansion of their networks and other projects. Not just from a cost perspective, but also a manpower perspective. If your engineers are at existing sites changing kit, they're not building out new kit.

Seems like a nonsense excuse when coverage on the railway has been poor for decades.

 

[dosxuk]

Seems like a nonsense excuse when coverage on the railway has been poor for decades.

Not in the context of the railway not being a focus for the mobile networks. They have a limited pot of money, it's better for them to spend that money on areas where there is a base of customers, rather than open fields and the odd passing bunch of commuters.