MML to scotland?

[Popper]

I think it would work, quick link to St Pancras International

I think the way i would chose would be

LONDON ST PANCRAS - LEICESTER - DERBY- CHESTERFIELD - SHEFFFIELD - BARNSLEY - WAKEFIELD KIRKGATE - WOODLESFORD - SHIPLEY - SKIPTON - HELLIFIELD - SETTLE - APPLEBY - CARLISE - DUMFRIES - NEW CUMNOCK - KILMARNOCK - BARRHEAD - CROSSMYLOOF - GLASGOW CENTRAL

(Double the branch between Mauchline junction & Barrhead)

Or another idea that you could use is

LONDON ST PANCRAS - LEICESTER - EAST MIDLANDS PARKWAY - THROUGH TOTON OR BEESTON - LANGLEY MILL - CHESTERFIELD - GRINDLEFORD - NEW MILLS CENTRAL - STOCKPORT - MANCHESTER PICCADULLY P13 & 14 - DEANSGATE - SALFORD CRESCENT - MOSES GATE - BOLTON - BLACKBURN - CLITHEROE - HELLIFIELD - SETTLE - APPLEBY - CARLISE - CARSTAIRS - SHIELDMUIR - UDDINGSTON - CAMBUSLANG - GLASGOW CENTRAL

Honstly there loads of ways you can do it from London To Scotland, the above is only the Path i think it could take not stopping at!

And i don't think Bolton and Blackburn have an direct London Link!

I think its at capacity through Manchester Piccadilly, at least that was what I was told when I proposed my Colne- London direct route! (see link below)

 

[ashworth]

Newark would be doubling back. Retford would be down the robin hood line, 2 trains an hour in each direction, lots of spare capacity there, but speed issues (however imagine a HST on the viaduct over mansfield town centre!)

There is actually no spare capacity on the Robin Line between Nottingham and Mansfield, apart from on Sundays and after 6.30 pm Monday to Saturdays. To keep the costs down, and also to allow space for the Nottingham tram to Hucknall, a large stretch of the line from Bulwell to Kirkby in Ashfield is single line.

Two pasing loops have been put in over the years at Moor Bridge and Newstead but the stretch between these passing places is still a long one. To enable 2 trains an hour in each direction to keep time through the single line section alternate stops at Bulwell and Newstead have to be missed from services because timings are so tight. Even with missing these stops a small amount of late running can cause chaos.

Apart from all that, although speeds have been raised slightly over the past few years, the line is still slow and journeys from Nottingham to Worksop still take over an hour. What is really needed for this line is through trains to Sheffield to enable passengers from the Mansfield and the northern section of the line to be able to reach Sheffield with the same ease as Nottingham without a 45 minute wait for a connection at Worksop.

Running through long distance services via this route is a complete non-starter. Although, I am surprised that it is not used for Sunday diversions.

 

[gordonthemoron]

or at least connecting at worksop

 

[tbtc]

What is really needed for this line is through trains to Sheffield to enable passengers from the Mansfield and the northern section of the line to be able to reach Sheffield with the same ease as Nottingham without a 45 minute wait for a connection at Worksop

I agree. And I think that the Sheffield - Worksop service could certainly sustain a half hourly frequency (with one to Lincoln via Gainsborough and one to Nottingham via Mansfield). The only drawback is the reversal at Worksop, but I think it'd be well worth it. There's a fast Sheffield - Nottingham service (via Chesterfield), but quite a few people in north Nottinghamshire who would benefit from a link to Sheffield/Meadowhall (and connections beyond)

 

[Yew]

There is actually no spare capacity on the Robin Line between Nottingham and Mansfield, apart from on Sundays and after 6.30 pm Monday to Saturdays. To keep the costs down, and also to allow space for the Nottingham tram to Hucknall, a large stretch of the line from Bulwell to Kirkby in Ashfield is single line.

Two pasing loops have been put in over the years at Moor Bridge and Newstead but the stretch between these passing places is still a long one. To enable 2 trains an hour in each direction to keep time through the single line section alternate stops at Bulwell and Newstead have to be missed from services because timings are so tight. Even with missing these stops a small amount of late running can cause chaos.

Apart from all that, although speeds have been raised slightly over the past few years, the line is still slow and journeys from Nottingham to Worksop still take over an hour. What is really needed for this line is through trains to Sheffield to enable passengers from the Mansfield and the northern section of the line to be able to reach Sheffield with the same ease as Nottingham without a 45 minute wait for a connection at Worksop.

Running through long distance services via this route is a complete non-starter. Although, I am surprised that it is not used for Sunday diversions.

I always wondered why they didnt just put the tram electrics over the standard railway lines, and get trams with standard guage. Im usually on the othe rhalf of the robin hood line, and there is spare capacity on that side, however I imagine getting a service through to edinburgh is highly unlikely. Although I think the service should continue onto retford, as you have to wait half an hour at worksop to get a train for one station along if you want to get onto the ecml

 

[DarloRich]

I think it would work, quick link to St Pancras International

I think the way i would chose would be

LONDON ST PANCRAS - LEICESTER - DERBY- CHESTERFIELD - SHEFFFIELD - BARNSLEY - WAKEFIELD KIRKGATE - WOODLESFORD - SHIPLEY - SKIPTON - HELLIFIELD - SETTLE - APPLEBY - CARLISE - DUMFRIES - NEW CUMNOCK - KILMARNOCK - BARRHEAD - CROSSMYLOOF - GLASGOW CENTRAL

(Double the branch between Mauchline junction & Barrhead)

Or another idea that you could use is

LONDON ST PANCRAS - LEICESTER - EAST MIDLANDS PARKWAY - THROUGH TOTON OR BEESTON - LANGLEY MILL - CHESTERFIELD - GRINDLEFORD - NEW MILLS CENTRAL - STOCKPORT - MANCHESTER PICCADULLY P13 & 14 - DEANSGATE - SALFORD CRESCENT - MOSES GATE - BOLTON - BLACKBURN - CLITHEROE - HELLIFIELD - SETTLE - APPLEBY - CARLISE - CARSTAIRS - SHIELDMUIR - UDDINGSTON - CAMBUSLANG - GLASGOW CENTRAL

Honstly there loads of ways you can do it from London To Scotland, the above is only the Path i think it could take not stopping at!

And i don't think Bolton and Blackburn have an direct London Link!

Is this a humorous post? Are you being serious? There are just a few problems:

1) Capacity
2) Speed/Length of journey
3) Stock
4) Operator

The MML is full almost too bursting point; especially at the South end. You have got EMT/FCC before you add in the extra Thameslink stuff. The "domestic" station at St Pancras is 4 platforms and is often full. See the RUS!

I am pretty sure the S&C is full almost also, before you even think about using the WCML or the ECML. Oh and good luck trying to shoe horn anything else through platforms 13/14 at MCPICC!

Your first proposal misses out Leeds which is, I would suggest, the source of the majority of passengers on this run. You suggest a meander around Yorkshire, serving some strange places. Do you think there is a market for Barnsley/Wakefield to Glasgow? And who is going to get a train via Dumfries when you can change at Carlisle or Leeds for a faster train to Glasgow.

Your second proposed route would take about 17 years! And it serves no real sources of revenue after Manchester & misses out Sheffield another large city and potential revenue source. How do you propose to win customers from Virgin or TPE? Your service would be MUCH slower.

Which stock are you going to use? Where is it going to come from?

Who is going to operate the service? EMT? XC? A.N . Other?

I am not trying to be argumentative - this just doesn’t make sense as a proposal

You could suggest, just, a service Leeds-Glasgow or even Derby/Nottingham - Glasgow via the S&C but I just cant see where the business case sits.

Perhaps as a first action you could extend some of the Northern Carlisle-Leeds services into a Carlisle- Nottingham

Pathing is a major problem as is suitable (any) stock to run the services. Plus there are already faster services to London from Glasgow and from almost all points between. How will you win customers? How will the fares reflect the loss of time against ECML/WCML or even TPE/XC from further north?

Sorry - just can’t see how you could make this work.

 

[Popper]

Can you try and be a bit less harsh, this is only a forum.

Although I agree with you to an extent...

 

[DarloRich]

Is it harsh? Sorry if i have caused any offense to anyone that was not what i wanted to do. I tend to call a spade a spade rather than a mkI manual earth moving device i just wish that people would look at what is actually possible before setting out a service. Any way the quoted post may have been an ironic take on the new service/stock/routing debates we have on here often. I may have just taken the bait or not!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Could you combine leeds carlisle and leeds nottingham occasionally throughout day?

Also on the MML to manchester idea. Could you extend the nottingham stopper to then go to derby chesterfield dronfield stockport man pic and man airport. ignore lack of stock for now. this gives man places in east midlands and indeed kettering a link to man airport.

 

[ashworth]

Could you combine leeds carlisle and leeds nottingham occasionally throughout day?

Joining the Nottingham-Leeds and Leeds-Carlisle would be a great idea that has been suggested many times.
However, if Northern were to operate a service over such a distance linking major towns and cities like Nottingham, Sheffield, Leeds and Carlisle passenger numbers might be increased by them addressing the situation about AP Tickets.

Northern do not do any Advance Purchase fares of their own and do not do seat reservations. When looking for long distance AP fares that often directs people away from Northern services because of their high fares.

For example I very rarely use their Nottingham to Leeds service because cheap AP tickets from East Coast via Grantham are much better value.
In the same way Nottingham to Carlisle AP fare would be much cheaper via Crewe or Manchester and the same from places like Chesterfield and Sheffield via Manchester.

 

[9K43]

Hey all.

I was just thinking about capacity on the ECML and WCML, and wondering if a To scotland service through the MML could be any use. First off I was thinking MML to nottingham, the along the robin hood line to worksop, then connecting to the ECML at retford, However I beleive there are low speed limits on this section of track. so maybe there is a better route (maybe from sheffield?)

Would a WCML connection be possible, I imagine most of the capacity issues will be approaching london, so a conection to say... Manchester, where possible, a lot of extra capacity could be gained (The MML does have less traffic right? EMT only operate a few trains an hour along it, and I dont think anyone else really runs along it for major periods of time)

This would mean increased capacity for london=> scotland services, and slightly more, albiet along a possibly longer route, for manchester, and the whole MML as some West coast services (voyagers? none electrics?) along the MML.

Let me Know our thoughts,
Yew

We had a right good link to Scotland from Sheffield to Wath Road Junction at Mexboro to Goose Hill Jct at Norminton
From Wath the track was all new CWR with 2 Tracks up and down.
What did the clowns do?
Shut it and ripped it up and that was the end of that line.
They transferred the route onto the S and K to Moorthorpe and back onto the GNR at South Kirby Jct.( Back into the fire.)
The S and K is like a rolla coaster with all mining subsidence so no fast running on that one.

 

[Damien1986]

We could have some of the Midland Mainline serices extending to Glasgow via the East Coat Mainline!

 

[Yew]

We could have some of the Midland Mainline serices extending to Glasgow via the East Coat Mainline!

from what i can tell, the only places we could join are at the points where the ecml is busiest, it just doesnt go far enough north to join later

 

[DarloRich]

We could have some of the Midland Mainline serices extending to Glasgow via the East Coat Mainline!

Good luck finding a path for MML servies. I am sure Ec would love to give up some of thier paths! Or XC or any of the FOCs

 

[MCR247]

from what i can tell, the only places we could join are at the points where the ecml is busiest, it just doesnt go far enough north to join later

Isn't the only place Doncaster? Although I suppose if you went via Leeds you could join at York

 

[DarloRich]

It could be at Grantham, Retford, Doncaster or York IMO

 

[MCR247]

Grantham would involve reserving, Retford would take the mic as well as involving reversing

 

[DarloRich]

ah but you didnt stipulate you didnt want to reverse! lol

 

[MCR247]

Fair enough

 

[Waverley125]

I do like the route idea. I think having it start from Nottingham and stopping at Sheffield would open up a lot more traffic between these cities and Glasgow. I might ditch Shipley Kirkby Stephen (pop approx. 1000!) and go via Motherwell to keep it intercity though - via Dumfries may be scenic, but it's the long way round for a competitive fast service.

Nottingham & Sheffield could work if you ran fast, i.e. Nottingham, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Wakefield Westgate, Leeds. The Shipley & Kirkby Stephen stops are there for two reasons. Shipley is basically a North Bradford/Wharfedale call, as reversing into Forster Square would be horrible, and it's much more convenient for people from NW leeds than City station. Kirkby is a huge tourist destination in the summer, generating more traffic.

Dumfries & Killy are there to generate inter-city scottish traffic. ATM there's no fast service Carlisle-Dumfries-Kilmarnock-Glasgow. This would give one and could draw Carlisle-Glasgow traffic if you undercut Virgin's tickets.

Also, if this was being run by TPE I imagine you could alternate the Glasgow-Manc. Airport & Glasgow-Leeds services via the GSWR line every other hour, giving an hourly service on both routes. Lastly, the current 2hr 20 service via Killy makes 10 stops that a faster train wouldn't make, so the extra time probably wouldn't be that much greater.