MML Electrification

[anti-pacer]

I have done a search to see if I can find the answer but I can't, so could anyone answer any of the following questions?

1) When is it due to be completed?
2) Is it going to include Sheffield-Moorthorpe curve?
3) What is likely to happen to the 222's when the wires are up?

Apologies if these questions have been answered elsewhere.

 

[tbtc]

1) When is it due to be completed?

I think wires will reach Sheffield in 2020

2) Is it going to include Sheffield-Moorthorpe curve?

No

3) What is likely to happen to the 222's when the wires are up?

Nobody knows (there was a thread with much speculation about the GWML services to Devon/ Cornwall, but that was just speculation)

 

[anti-pacer]

What a wasted opportunity to not do the infill between Sheffield and Moorthorpe. :-?

 

[tbtc]

What a wasted opportunity to not do the infill between Sheffield and Moorthorpe. :-?

There's going to be nine hundred miles of electrification in CP5 IIRC.

Not enough time to wire everything. Infill bits like Sheffield to Doncaster (and the Erewash route and the Matlock branch and Derby to Birmingham etc etc) may happen in CP6, but there's not enough time to wire all of these at the same time.

 

[anti-pacer]

There's going to be nine hundred miles of electrification in CP5 IIRC.

Not enough time to wire everything. Infill bits like Sheffield to Doncaster (and the Erewash route and the Matlock branch and Derby to Birmingham etc etc) may happen in CP6, but there's not enough time to wire all of these at the same time.

I think the Calder Valley line would be a better contender than the Matlock line, but who's to say that won't be in CP6.

 

[tbtc]

I think the Calder Valley line would be a better contender than the Matlock line, but who's to say that won't be in CP6.

There's lots of contenders for CP6 (Selby to Hull being high up that list); I was just quoting bits of route on the historic MML or nearby when I replied to you, hence mention of Matlock.

 

[edwin_m]

Matlock, Sheffield-Moorthorpe etc are effectively infills where a relatively short length of electrification allows a much longer diesel service to convert to electric, so electrification is good value both in cost-benefit terms and in releasing DMUs for other work. Calder Valley would be a much bigger scheme and less easy to justify because none of its services run under the wires at present except in the immediate area of Leeds (and in future Manchester).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The nearest Network Rail have got to a plan says the work will start in CP5 (2014-19) but will extend into CP6, I think at the Sheffield end.
No wiring beyond Sheffield Midland station is authorised, but the DfT has asked NR to review what extensions in CP6 in Yorkshire make the best case.
So by the time the wires go up at Sheffield, hopefully they will go on to Moorthorpe/Doncaster.
Nothing really said about rolling stock, but there will already be an IEP depot at Doncaster.
EMT will be running the franchise up to 2017, but I shouldn't think anybody is in a rush to specify/buy new MML rolling stock.
The EMUs Southern are ordering for Thameslink might eventually go elsewhere, and the DfT has mentioned Corby as a future route (ie semi-fast from St Pancras).
With e-Voyager in the doldrums, no-one knows what lies in wait for the 222s (XC, West of England?).
Apart from the current Sheffield/Nottingham/Corby-London services, it isn't obvious what the future service pattern will be.
The electric spine route (Bedford-Oxford) is also being electrified in the same timeframe but again, any services via the MML are undefined.

 

[Mugby]

So there may not be any St Pancras - Leeds trains after electrification then?

 

[anti-pacer]

So there may not be any St Pancras - Leeds trains after electrification then?

That's what I was wondering, unless some 222's or HST's (if they're still around by then) are retained.

I was rather hoping that Sheffield-Moorthorpe would be electrified so EMT could run Leeds-St Pancras services, and Northern could run their Leeds-Nottingham service that way under the wires.

I would love to see the following services;

Leeds-Wakefield Westgate-Sheffield-Derby-Leicester-St Pancras

Leeds-Wakefield Westgate-Rotherham Central-Meadowhall-Sheffield-Dronfield-Chesterfield-Alfreton-Langley Mill-Ilkeston*-Nottingham

* If and when Ilkeston station gets built

 

[RichmondCommu]

So there may not be any St Pancras - Leeds trains after electrification then?

Probably not but surely its quicker to travel Leeds from Kings Cross?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Do EMT's current Leeds services not run via Mexborough and Doncaster anyway? I know they used to a few years ago.

 

[Mugby]

Do EMT's current Leeds services not run via Mexborough and Doncaster anyway?

Some do, some don't. Of course it is quicker to go via the ECML but I thought the only reason MML trains operated to Leeds was to work back to Neville Hill. If everything terminated at Sheffield presumably they would all have to work empty back to Derby for servicing?

 

[anti-pacer]

Some do, some don't. Of course it is quicker to go via the ECML but I thought the only reason MML trains operated to Leeds was to work back to Neville Hill. If everything terminated at Sheffield presumably they would all have to work empty back to Derby for servicing?

My suggestion would create an alternative link to London from Leeds, with better connections to Eurostar, not to mention a link to Leicester (with connections to Northants and Bedfordshire).

An hourly service to compliment the half hourly service from Leeds to KGC.

 

[tbtc]

So there may not be any St Pancras - Leeds trains after electrification then?

Maybe not, though they are really just stock moves nowadays.

I was rather hoping that Sheffield-Moorthorpe would be electrified so EMT could run Leeds-St Pancras services, and Northern could run their Leeds-Nottingham service that way under the wires.

I would love to see the following services;

Leeds-Wakefield Westgate-Sheffield-Derby-Leicester-St Pancras

Leeds-Wakefield Westgate-Rotherham Central-Meadowhall-Sheffield-Dronfield-Chesterfield-Alfreton-Langley Mill-Ilkeston*-Nottingham

* If and when Ilkeston station gets built

The Alfreton line isn't being wired in CP5 either, as previously mentioned. It may be electrified in CP6, but then so may be the Leeds - Barnsley - Sheffield route (and others).

 

[anti-pacer]

Maybe not, though they are really just stock moves nowadays.



The Alfreton line isn't being wired in CP5 either, as previously mentioned. It may be electrified in CP6, but then so may be the Leeds - Barnsley - Sheffield route (and others).

Well that's that one out then!

Would still like to see a direct EMU Leeds-St Pancras though. Essentially an extension of the Sheffield-St Pancras.

 

[Mugby]

So the Alfreton line will either lose it's couple of daily London services or a pair of Meridians will be retained.

 

[anti-pacer]

So the Alfreton line will either lose it's couple of daily London services or a pair of Meridians will be retained.

Mugby, as you live in Derby, do you know if Derby has many daily commuters to London?

 

[edwin_m]

My suggestion would create an alternative link to London from Leeds, with better connections to Eurostar, not to mention a link to Leicester (with connections to Northants and Bedfordshire).

An hourly service to compliment the half hourly service from Leeds to KGC.

The most recent MML franchise specifiation didn't include any Leeds services but said that they could run them if they wanted to. Hence they are essentially passenger-carrying depot moves, although they do also fill some gaps in the Sheffield-Nottingham service which might otherwise need even more ECS working of 158s than it does now. As the MML electric fleet won't be much larger than its existing diesel fleet, I'd say the reduced maintenance workload for electrics would allow them all to be based in Etches Park with the capacity in Neville Hill released for the extra trains that will be running in West Yorkshire.

As to getting better connections with Eurostar, the saving is a couple of hundred metres walk between Kings Cross and St Pancras. The Leeds train I took from St Pancras last week had a journey time of almost four hours (admittedly via Nottingham), so I really can't see that being a valid reason to keep it.

 

[Donny Dave]

My suggestion would create an alternative link to London from Leeds, with better connections to Eurostar, not to mention a link to Leicester (with connections to Northants and Bedfordshire).

An hourly service to compliment the half hourly service from Leeds to KGC.

To be honest, I think that's a bit of pie in the sky thinking there ....

Leeds - London via the MML does take a fair bit longer than via the ECML, so would be very hard to justify an hourly service, despite the additional links to Derby/Leicester. Perhaps 1 service every 2 or 3 hours could be justified, but I'm not sure about that. Anything above that could be seen as an ORCATS raid on Leeds - London and beyond traffic.

The change from Kings Cross to the Eurostar terminal isn't overly difficult either, with it being out of 1 door, across a not very busy road, and in another door, so that isn't (IMO) a valid argument either.

Another possible nail in the coffin for your desire for Leeds - London via the MML is the sheer amount of services between Meadowhall and Sheffield, which is heavily congested as it is.

 

[class303]

Is the whole diversionary route from Leicester to kettering via oakham being electrified or just as far as Corby?

 

[edwin_m]

So the Alfreton line will either lose it's couple of daily London services or a pair of Meridians will be retained.

Most likely the former, unless it is also electrified. Which is probably essential if the "electric spine" is actually going to have any benefits for freight.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Mugby, as you live in Derby, do you know if Derby has many daily commuters to London?

As a railway town Derby has a disproportionate number, especially of those who have retained first class free travel privileges!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is the whole diversionary route from Leicester to kettering via oakham being electrified or just as far as Corby?

Just Corby, though Corby to Syston would also have to be electrified if there was any significant flow of electric freight since the route via Market Harborough is close to capacity.

 

[class303]

Just Corby, though Corby to Syston would also have to be electrified if there was any significant flow of electric freight since the route via Market Harborough is close to capacity.

Ok. seems a shame, appreciate it is quite a distance but it's amazing the amount of times I've gone that way due to disruption, be shame not to have it as an option, especially as Leicester to Bedford is double tracked.

 

[Mugby]

Mugby, as you live in Derby, do you know if Derby has many daily commuters to London?

To the best of my knowledge an average but not tremendous number although I havn't been on Derby station at commuting time for quite a while.
From observation when returning from Leicester in the evening peak, they do seem to empty out quite a lot there.

 

[43074]

My suggestion would create an alternative link to London from Leeds, with better connections to Eurostar, not to mention a link to Leicester (with connections to Northants and Bedfordshire).

An hourly service to compliment the half hourly service from Leeds to KGC.

An hourly Leeds - MML - St Pancras service would be really useful I think. But you are not the first to come up with a suggestion for such a service...

In 2002 MML ordered the 7 9-car Meridians to work a (then) speculative Leeds - Nottingham (IIRC) - London service. However, the then SRA said no to MML wanting to run these services due to a lack of avaliable paths between Leeds and Sheffield for the trains to use.

Thus the 9-car Meridians sat in sidings for about a year after they were built because MML had not got permission to run the services for which they were built. And MML were reluctant to use them at the time because their track access cost (as 9-car sets) was more than that of a 2+8 HST.

So, all the 9 car sets achieved was the displacement of a few HST sets from the MML to VXC (temporarily) and GNER (as it was then). and the lengthening of the 4 car Meridians to 5 coaches.

 

[Mugby]

I seem to remember some years ago, they got the the timing for the northbound Master Cutler service down to an even hour for the 99 miles from London to Leicester. When it became apparent that it wasn't regularly achievable it was increased again.

 

[Haydn1971]

Probably not but surely its quicker to travel Leeds from Kings Cross?

Not everyone wants to go to London on MML !

 

[anti-pacer]

Not everyone wants to go to London on MML !

I'm thinking more of the following;

* Another semi-fast Leeds-Sheffield service
* Half hourly Leeds-Derby (inc XC)
* 3tph Sheffield-Derby (inc XC)
* New hourly link from Leeds-Leicester, and the connections that brings south of Leicester
* A third train per hour between Leeds-London, without using up paths on the ECML

 

[tbtc]

So the Alfreton line will either lose it's couple of daily London services or a pair of Meridians will be retained.

I suppose it depends whether CP6 will see an immediate follow on- it already looks like there won't be enough time in CP5 to do all of things committed to in CP5 (if that makes sense) - we may have a period where the Nottingham services are EMUs whilst the Sheffield - East Midlands Parkway section is electrified. Makes sense to concentrate on one "leg" first.

As for Leeds - St Pancras, there's an hourly service from Leeds to Derby and an hourly service from Leeds to Nottingham so it'd be harder to justify another Leeds - East Midlands service. Longer/ better trains from Sheffield to Leeds would be very useful though, but that doesn't need to be tied to MML services.

 

[Haydn1971]

Longer/ better trains from Sheffield to Leeds would be very useful though, but that doesn't need to be tied to MML services.

Didn't you get the memo... There is a longer/better service

I'm currently using (for at least half of my trips) the trans pennine and east coast combo via Doncaster - much nicer than northern, annoyingly a bit of a wait at Doncaster both ways, often mitigated by a visit to costa !