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MML Electrification: progress updates

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edwin_m

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It can't move by more than a hundred metres or so I wouldn't have thought. There is a carpark south of the station, but beyond that access would be tricky. North would offer an easier move, beside the new Aldi. Not as convenient for the town, but it's not the best sited station anyway.

I've thought for a while that building a new station (possibly with a terminating bay) just off Bowshaw Roundabout could work well. There isn't really a park and ride in to Sheffield from the south, and no easy way to extend the tram, so having a Parkway station that also replaces the existing Dronfield station seems a good option. A decent town shuttle bus serving it could mitigate some of the lack of convenience of the location.

I don't know enough to even guess. You can get a good view of the bridge from Google Streetview, but without a train (or banana) for scale unfortunately.
To the north are more overbridges and they'd have to buy out at least one industrial unit to create a car park roughly the current size. There's some apparent vacant land around a small stadium at Bowshaw but that's probably match day parking. Hopefully 100m or so south would be enough to get a reasonable wire gradient, possibly using the principles developed for Steventon, and would put the platforms alongside the current car park.
 
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YorksLad12

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It can't move by more than a hundred metres or so I wouldn't have thought. There is a carpark south of the station, but beyond that access would be tricky. North would offer an easier move, beside the new Aldi. Not as convenient for the town, but it's not the best sited station anyway.

I've thought for a while that building a new station (possibly with a terminating bay) just off Bowshaw Roundabout could work well. There isn't really a park and ride in to Sheffield from the south, and no easy way to extend the tram, so having a Parkway station that also replaces the existing Dronfield station seems a good option. A decent town shuttle bus serving it could mitigate some of the lack of convenience of the location.
Probably cheaper and easier to buy out Aldi, Pets at Home and Joseph Bathrooms and relocate it there, including a bus turning circle or crossing point. I've done the walk from Dronfield to Sheffield FC a couple of times - not the easiest road to cross.
 

Killingworth

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To the north are more overbridges and they'd have to buy out at least one industrial unit to create a car park roughly the current size. There's some apparent vacant land around a small stadium at Bowshaw but that's probably match day parking. Hopefully 100m or so south would be enough to get a reasonable wire gradient, possibly using the principles developed for Steventon, and would put the platforms alongside the current car park.
Sheffield FC was founded in 1857, the world's first football team. They intend to move to former Sheffield Transport's large ground at Meadowhead, back in Sheffield, as soon as planning issues and finance can be resolved. Selling their current ground for housing is part of that. In any event the site is on a curved cutting as the railway prepares to enter Bradway Tunnel.

It's no secret locally that a site about 100 yards/metres south of the current station has been looked at and may well be the solution once detailed planning gets under way.
 

snalty

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Sorry if this has been posted before but I saw this on another forum a few weeks ago with regard to Sheffield.
Some tenders for reconstruction of Granville Road, Charlotte Rd and Myrtle Rd may have crossed my desk. Part of the electrification enabling works to the top end of MML. Interesting.
From SkyScraperCity here.
 

59CosG95

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Sorry if this has been posted before but I saw this on another forum a few weeks ago with regard to Sheffield.

From SkyScraperCity here.
Well this is news indeed.
Myrtle Rd (TJC1-52) is a very tricky one as the Sheaf passes beneath the MML at the same point, as you can see here:
1740563598394.png
(image shows a Google Maps screenshot of Myrtle Road bridge where it crosses the Midland Main Line and the River Sheaf, all at once)

Charlotte Rd (TJC1-55) looks a little easier, but also has a gas pipe on the Sheffield side of the bridge.
1740564458805.png 1740564554908.png
(images show Charlotte Rd on Google Maps, first viewed from the north, and then from the south)

And finally - Granville Rd (TJC1-56A).
1740564723726.png
 

Wyrleybart

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Thanks for posting those images. The Myrtle Road bridge is interesting because one of the bridge piers appears to be directly over the crown of the river sheaf arch - and has probably existed for nigh on 200 years. I wonder how much attention those structures have had over the years.
 

Killingworth

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Excellent pictures illustrating the space available for electrified 4 tracking with possible/probable bridge reconstruction.

Further south towards Bradway 4 tracking couldn't be fully achieved without major demolition, particularly the section just to the north of the southern Archer Road bridge, see Google maps aerial view; https://www.google.com/maps/place/Archer+Rd,+Sheffield/@53.3450191,-1.494613,128m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x4879824f6cfb691d:0x4125dea0c581be0c!8m2!3d53.3461553!4d-1.4896737!16s/g/1tdz4bxt?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDIyMy4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw==

Sometimes blamed on Tesco's there's more to it than that. HS2 plans were to add a 3rd track down that section. That would be tight and require that bridge to be rebuilt. Using the Google maps link above you can move up and down the valley revealing where bridges over roads and the Sheaf have been removed and will need replacing to add a 3rd, let alone a 4th, track.

Beware, the section from Abbey Lane bridge up to Dore is shown prior to completion of the current work. I've heard it said that the new configuration may not support 4 tracking without replacing a newly installed bridge over the Sheaf!

A lot of slewing all down the Sheaf Valley whether it be for 3 or 4 tracks. Lots of railway infrastructure to replace and reposition.

All costly stuff with plenty of scope for reasons to defer decisions. Grayling was right to go for bi-modes. At the present rate of progress their capability will be required late into the 2030s, if not into the 2040s. (Residents near Bristol and Swansea, please keep quiet at the back!)
 
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edwin_m

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Thanks for posting those images. The Myrtle Road bridge is interesting because one of the bridge piers appears to be directly over the crown of the river sheaf arch - and has probably existed for nigh on 200 years. I wonder how much attention those structures have had over the years.
I believe the pier is on solid ground, the river passing to the east of it which is why there is a third span there that can't ever have had a track in it (unless it was a siding that ended immediately to the south). The river passes under the existing tracks just north of the road bridge, where a girder is visible between the tracks.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Excellent pictures. Thanks for posting. Everything is possible with time and money of course, but the public will have to recognize there will be some disruption.
 

Killingworth

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Excellent pictures. Thanks for posting. Everything is possible with time and money of course, but the public will have to recognize there will be some disruption.
The public will have to put up with a lot of disruptions to get Sheffield, the Sheaf Valley and Dronfield wired - let alone through Leicester, Derby, Chesterfield and to Nottingham. The mile of wires in open country aren't a problem, it's the bridges, platforms and tunnels that cause the delays with opportunities to make other improvements when a rare chance occurs. Miss them and we're stuck for maybe 50 years or more.

Completion in full is starting to look like a "not in my lifetime" project, as I suggested to over optimistic Huw Merriman at Dore last year after he'd just suggested Hope Valley would soon be wired. (Dore could become Sheffield South West Parkway to Manchester for a year or two while they closed the Sheaf Valley tracks to get on with it, sending MML traffic via Barrow Hill - but that's a subject for a future thread.)
 

WAO

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The Myrtle and Granville bridges have ageing, rusting steel decks so, will need replacing soon anyway.

There was a very wide trackbed North of Archer Road - Side by Side shows about nine, so some clever surveying might find a four track route with acceptable disturbance.

The pegs etc are probably part of the HS2 lesson that a fully worked up scheme is needed for proper costing. A scheme can be acceptably expensive but it must NOT significantly exceed the set budget, like GWEP, as that causes budgetary chaos, nationally.

WAO
 

Chris 76

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The public will have to put up with a lot of disruptions to get Sheffield, the Sheaf Valley and Dronfield wired - let alone through Leicester, Derby, Chesterfield and to Nottingham
From the posts above I see that Sheffield has complexities. But Leicester, Derby and Nottingham-really? Leicester has the London Road Bridge, but a similar situation in Cardiff was solved with voltage-ontrolled clearance: https://www.networkrailmediacentre....demolition-thanks-to-electric-resistant-paint
From memory and Google maps Derby has no overbridges that look difficult for electrification, and the station area was remodelled a few years back. Similarly at Nottingham, a few fairly modern road overbridges on the approach from Beeston, until Nottingham station where track lowering may be needed. There are diversionary routes for any blockades north of Derby-the Erewash and Chesterfield-Beighton routes.
 

Killingworth

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From the posts above I see that Sheffield has complexities. But Leicester, Derby and Nottingham-really? Leicester has the London Road Bridge, but a similar situation in Cardiff was solved with voltage-ontrolled clearance: https://www.networkrailmediacentre....demolition-thanks-to-electric-resistant-paint
From memory and Google maps Derby has no overbridges that look difficult for electrification, and the station area was remodelled a few years back. Similarly at Nottingham, a few fairly modern road overbridges on the approach from Beeston, until Nottingham station where track lowering may be needed. There are diversionary routes for any blockades north of Derby-the Erewash and Chesterfield-Beighton routes.
We shall see. I'll repeat what I've said previously. I can't see continuous electrification into Sheffield before 2035. I hope I'm proved wrong. If I am I hope opportunities to improve capacity in the Sheffield area are fully taken.
 

Topological

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From the posts above I see that Sheffield has complexities. But Leicester, Derby and Nottingham-really? Leicester has the London Road Bridge, but a similar situation in Cardiff was solved with voltage-ontrolled clearance: https://www.networkrailmediacentre....demolition-thanks-to-electric-resistant-paint
From memory and Google maps Derby has no overbridges that look difficult for electrification, and the station area was remodelled a few years back. Similarly at Nottingham, a few fairly modern road overbridges on the approach from Beeston, until Nottingham station where track lowering may be needed. There are diversionary routes for any blockades north of Derby-the Erewash and Chesterfield-Beighton routes.
Leicester was the one I was thinking would cause the greatest disruption when it was wired. The solution for London Road will not be as quick as stringing wires over the line.

However, you can quite easily divert through Corby and then have buses from East Midlands Parkway and Kettering to serve Leicester so it is probably not that disruptive to the MML. For the CrossCountry trains it would be bustitution, but most stations offer reasonable turn around opportunities to bus to Leicester from.

Derby and Nottingham take out a lot of services when they are being worked on, but the stations are big enough for partial closure.

Route wise there is not much can be done for diversions between Syston and Trent, but here again East Midlands Parkway easy road access can help.

It would be great to think long blocks would be used to keep the whole project fast, but it is just good to see things continuing north.
 

zwk500

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From the posts above I see that Sheffield has complexities. But Leicester, Derby and Nottingham-really? Leicester has the London Road Bridge, but a similar situation in Cardiff was solved with voltage-ontrolled clearance: https://www.networkrailmediacentre....demolition-thanks-to-electric-resistant-paint
From memory and Google maps Derby has no overbridges that look difficult for electrification, and the station area was remodelled a few years back. Similarly at Nottingham, a few fairly modern road overbridges on the approach from Beeston, until Nottingham station where track lowering may be needed. There are diversionary routes for any blockades north of Derby-the Erewash and Chesterfield-Beighton routes.
Bridges aren't the only problems, and it only takes a little too tight clearance to cause a major problem. Voltage Controlled clearance is an option, but one bridge is not equal to another so don't assume that the solution that worked for Cardiff will work for Leicester. Bridges also are often more complex than can be seen as they may have buried services in or around them, and if you've got a gas or water main underneath the road it's a lot more difficult to swing by in a weekend with a prefab replacement kit.
However, even if there were no structural problems to be resolved and the line was fully electrification-ready with signalling etc (not quite sure but think most of the MML has been resignalled recently enough for this not to be a major issue) then installing the masts and wires and testing would still be disruptive to passengers, and diversionary routes are still disruptive as they take longer, can't always call at the same stops, and means an overall lower capacity of the railway.
 

baz962

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Leicester was the one I was thinking would cause the greatest disruption when it was wired. The solution for London Road will not be as quick as stringing wires over the line.

However, you can quite easily divert through Corby and then have buses from East Midlands Parkway and Kettering to serve Leicester so it is probably not that disruptive to the MML. For the CrossCountry trains it would be bustitution, but most stations offer reasonable turn around opportunities to bus to Leicester from.

Derby and Nottingham take out a lot of services when they are being worked on, but the stations are big enough for partial closure.

Route wise there is not much can be done for diversions between Syston and Trent, but here again East Midlands Parkway easy road access can help.

It would be great to think long blocks would be used to keep the whole project fast, but it is just good to see things continuing north.
I don't see any reason why not buses from Loughborough.
 

59CosG95

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From the posts above I see that Sheffield has complexities. But Leicester, Derby and Nottingham-really? Leicester has the London Road Bridge, but a similar situation in Cardiff was solved with voltage-ontrolled clearance: https://www.networkrailmediacentre....demolition-thanks-to-electric-resistant-paint
From memory and Google maps Derby has no overbridges that look difficult for electrification, and the station area was remodelled a few years back. Similarly at Nottingham, a few fairly modern road overbridges on the approach from Beeston, until Nottingham station where track lowering may be needed. There are diversionary routes for any blockades north of Derby-the Erewash and Chesterfield-Beighton routes.
Attenborough poses a head-scratcher for me. You've got a level crossing, a footbridge and a station all in close proximity to each other.
The LC means that wires can't be below a certain height, then the footbridge means they can't be above a certain height, and then the platforms mean they can't be within 3.5m of a credible standing surface.
I think there's going to have to be a new footbridge put in at Attenborough (perhaps a fully step-free one?) in order to
  1. provide a means of crossing platforms while the barriers are down
  2. do so while giving wires adequate clearances above tracks for taller vehicles.
Mark my words, Attenborough could prove to be a real thorn in the side of the MMLE project, not least because Attenborough village itself looks very "sharp-elbowed", potentially rivalling the Goring Gap lot.
 

The exile

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Attenborough poses a head-scratcher for me. You've got a level crossing, a footbridge and a station all in close proximity to each other.
The LC means that wires can't be below a certain height, then the footbridge means they can't be above a certain height, and then the platforms mean they can't be within 3.5m of a credible standing surface.
I think there's going to have to be a new footbridge put in at Attenborough (perhaps a fully step-free one?) in order to
  1. provide a means of crossing platforms while the barriers are down
  2. do so while giving wires adequate clearances above tracks for taller vehicles
Providing a new, higher, footbridge will be expensive (though peanuts in comparison to the whole scheme) but is hardly a show-stopper - unless the footbridge is a unique listed surviving original, of course.
 

John R

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I can't see what the problem with a new footbridge is. They are being installed in lots of places, even where the original was architecturally quite appealing (which Attenborough's is most definitely not), and not just for electrification purposes.
 

Topological

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I don't see any reason why not buses from Loughborough.
Loughborough does have a bigger car park than it used to have, but the roads out of the station are not great. That was my logic for using East Midlands Parkway anyway.

Not to put a dampener on things, but I noticed a wooden peg in Crewe station this morning. It had a plant sprouting out of it. Given Crewe has been wired a long time, and presuming they have not been installing plant pots along the MML, then possibly there is another explanation despite the coincidence of the numbering/locations with mast labelling further south.
 

QSK19

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I can't see what the problem with a new footbridge is. They are being installed in lots of places, even where the original was architecturally quite appealing (which Attenborough's is most definitely not), and not just for electrification purposes.
Agreed. I am sure a Category F2 station will not be allowed to kibosh the whole of RS5. There is always a way - if the low bridge at Leicester can be overcome, I’m sure the footbridge at Attenborough can be as well.
 

takno

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Not to put a dampener on things, but I noticed a wooden peg in Crewe station this morning. It had a plant sprouting out of it. Given Crewe has been wired a long time, and presuming they have not been installing plant pots along the MML, then possibly there is another explanation despite the coincidence of the numbering/locations with mast labelling further south.
That may relate to surveying for signals, or some surveying which was done as part of HS2 planning.

Regularly-spaced pegs along a line are much more likely to relate to electrification. As noted up-thread of course, they only indicate that relatively detailed investigation is taking place, rather than any firm plans that something will happen any time soon. After the problems with the Great Western and Bolton lines I doubt anybody wants to provide firm quotes and business cases based on general assumptions about ground conditions and positions of cabling anymore.
 

InTheEastMids

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Re: Sheffield bridges - I am guessing, but perhaps part of the reason things are already moving forward now is that it's probably only going to be acceptable to work on one structure at a time, during periods of low traffic. So if there say 3 bridges that require replacement and relatively lengthy traffic management, then do one each summer holiday over 3 years.

Mark my words, Attenborough could prove to be a real thorn in the side of the MMLE project, not least because Attenborough village itself looks very "sharp-elbowed", potentially rivalling the Goring Gap lot.

A big part of it is whether raising/replacing the bridge are deemed to have prior approval (permitted development). Most do, and reasons why not are normally:
- the bridge is a heritage asset (don't know but doesn't look likely)
- NR are making changes to accessibility / rights of way (e.g. replacing a flat crossing on a bridleway with a bridge with stairs only)
- the proposed replacement would significantly impact the visual amenity/landscape of the area (not likely)
- the proposed replacement would reduce privacy for neighbours

There are perhaps 3-4 nearby homes that could suffer loss of privacy/have privacy improved, so design may include screening to mitigate

Obviously may get significantly more complex if NR decide they need to make it step free with massive ramps or a lift.
 

eastwestdivide

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Related to the listed status of various bits of architecture, it's worth noting that

Listing does not prevent all changes or freeze a building in time; it simply means that listed building consent must be applied for in order to make any changes to that building which might affect its character as a building of special interest
according to

I can't see anything on the list of listed buildings for Attenborough or those bridges just S of Sheffield, but the stone bridge at Dronfield is Grade II listed (the lowest grade). See
 

YorksLad12

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Attenborough poses a head-scratcher for me. You've got a level crossing, a footbridge and a station all in close proximity to each other.
The LC means that wires can't be below a certain height, then the footbridge means they can't be above a certain height, and then the platforms mean they can't be within 3.5m of a credible standing surface.
I think there's going to have to be a new footbridge put in at Attenborough (perhaps a fully step-free one?) in order to
  1. provide a means of crossing platforms while the barriers are down
  2. do so while giving wires adequate clearances above tracks for taller vehicles.
Mark my words, Attenborough could prove to be a real thorn in the side of the MMLE project, not least because Attenborough village itself looks very "sharp-elbowed", potentially rivalling the Goring Gap lot.
I agree, that one's going to be a cracker. The real issue is the housing all around; if you attempt to put either the road or the railway on a viaduct there will be a riot. Worth noting that if you use Google Maps, you can't do a Streetview of the four houses south-east of the level crossing, which sounds as if someone knows their rights...

Providing a new, higher, footbridge will be expensive (though peanuts in comparison to the whole scheme) but is hardly a show-stopper - unless the footbridge is a unique listed surviving original, of course.
The piers look old but the bridge deck and steps look modern. The postbox appears to be closed though... Also doubt you'd need lifts, as there is level access to both platforms from the pavement to the platforms
 

InTheEastMids

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I can't see anything on the list of listed buildings for Attenborough or those bridges just S of Sheffield, but the stone bridge at Dronfield is Grade II listed (the lowest grade). See
There are 5 listed bridges between Sheet Stores and Derby. 3 of them are overline in the flood plain of the Derwent, so they might create some headaches if the clearances aren't adequate.
The Redhill Tunnel Portals are also listed.

This sort of stuff is easy to find using Historic England's map (link below)

However it does not show other kinds of protections, such as SSSI, AONB and so on. For that you need to consult the relevant Local Plan / LPA or Magic Map.
 

edwin_m

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I think there's going to have to be a new footbridge put in at Attenborough (perhaps a fully step-free one?) in order to
I think they could argue that in the time anyone took to go up and down all the ramps, they would have been quicker to wait for the train(s) to pass by and just go over the crossing. It's not quite the same situation as Lincoln where they had to provide lifts, but it could be closed a lot longer and there were far more pedestrian movements too.
 

StewLane

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I think they could argue that in the time anyone took to go up and down all the ramps, they would have been quicker to wait for the train(s) to pass by and just go over the crossing. It's not quite the same situation as Lincoln where they had to provide lifts, but it could be closed a lot longer and there were far more pedestrian movements too.
The have been a lot of accidents at Attenborough crossing
 

Bald Rick

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Derby and Nottingham take out a lot of services when they are being worked on, but the stations are big enough for partial closure.

Fortunately there is recent history of long blockades at both for remodelling and resignalling; each of which were designed with electrification in mind, so hopefully the blocks required will be fewer and/or shorter.


Attenborough poses a head-scratcher for me. You've got a level crossing, a footbridge and a station all in close proximity to each other.

It looks dead simple to me. Deck up, add a few hundred mm of block work, deck down, couple of extra stairs. Apply VCC. Job done. But then I’m no engineer ;)
 
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