MML Electrification: progress updates

[YorkshireBear]

Are we sure that's electrification. They look like Pway setting out pegs, and one photo conveniently has a pway hand tool in it.

 

[59CosG95]

Are we sure that's electrification. They look like Pway setting out pegs, and one photo conveniently has a pway hand tool in it.

Could be either, but given that pegs were used to set out OLE masts between Kettering & Wigston, and are currently being used to set potential masts out between Wigston and Trent Jn, I'm leaning more towards their application for electrification.
That being said, this was at a junction, so it could equally be for P-Way or, equally, signalling equipment.

 

[Class 170101]

Are we sure that's electrification. They look like Pway setting out pegs, and one photo conveniently has a pway hand tool in it.

Could be either, but given that pegs were used to set out OLE masts between Kettering & Wigston, and are currently being used to set potential masts out between Wigston and Trent Jn, I'm leaning more towards their application for electrification.
That being said, this was at a junction, so it could equally be for P-Way or, equally, signalling equipment.

Perhaps someone could explain why OLE people would use pegs and why P-Way and others would use pegs?

 

[YorkshireBear]

In Pway terms you can pegs as an offset and level so that you know where to put the track. Or check a tamper has put the track back where it should have. Although I confess my knowledge of it is not 100% and is picked up from friends who work in Pway.

That sort of peg can be used for all sorts of things though, just marking locations for OLE stanchions was the suggestion relevant to this thread.

It was the presence of a pway hand tool (inspection spanner) that made me question it.

 

[tram21]

There's a line block between Long Eaton and Derby on the 16th February, and a full block between Nottingham, Derby and Leicester on the 23rd March coming up. Unsure what their purpose is but may be something to do with this...

All I know is travelling by train in the East Midlands area will become interesting if/when electrification starts!

 

[duffield]

There's a line block between Long Eaton and Derby on the 16th February, and a full block between Nottingham, Derby and Leicester on the 23rd March coming up. Unsure what their purpose is but may be something to do with this...

All I know is travelling by train in the East Midlands area will become interesting if/when electrification starts!

Yes, since there's no feasible diversion available when (e.g.) the Syston to Trent junctions section is being done. When doing Kettering to Leicester, the Corby diversion was available. In theory the Leicester to Burton line would come into play for getting to Derby and Sheffield at least (missing out Leicester for 1tph), but as far as I know it's both partly out of use (closed at one end?) and not cleared or suitable for passenger services anyhow. In an alternate universe where this line had re-opened for passenger service it would be very useful.

So buses it is, I guess. Ho hum.

 

[londonmidland]

and a full block between Nottingham, Derby and Leicester on the 23rd March coming up. Unsure what their purpose is but may be something to do with this...

Cross Country are still running between Leicester and Melton Mowbray via Syston in both directions that day so perhaps the works are starting at Syston North Jn?

 

[tram21]

Yes, since there's no feasible diversion available when (e.g.) the Syston to Trent junctions section is being done. When doing Kettering to Leicester, the Corby diversion was available. In theory the Leicester to Burton line would come into play for getting to Derby and Sheffield at least (missing out Leicester for 1tph), but as far as I know it's both partly out of use (closed at one end?) and not cleared or suitable for passenger services anyhow. In an alternate universe where this line had re-opened for passenger service it would be very useful.

So buses it is, I guess. Ho hum.

When riding on the Great Central Railway Nottingham, we were discussing a possibility where trains could run to Ruddington Fields on the GCRN, reducing the bus need to only the very last part of the journey. Class 222s have been there before, and are cleared for the route so it is possible. This is getting very speculative though, and should be saved for another thread...!!

There's Toton as well as Castle Donington diversions avaliable, (although I don't know what the latter entails). It's likely to be lots of buses though, thankfully in the past they have been very efficient!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2025 ==

Cross Country are still running between Leicester and Melton Mowbray via Syston in both directions that day so perhaps the works are starting at Syston North Jn?

Sounds likely. It's very unusual to have all the lines closed though, and it's only for one day. I'm sure information about why will come out nearer the time.

 

[InTheEastMids]

(Though I suppose Sheet Stores junction is still within the range of an overrun towards Derby)

I've seen letters from NR (probably to planning authorities) that describe this phase as being Syston to Trent/Sheet Stores junctions.
So unless somebody jumps in to correct me, my assumption is that Sheet Stores is within the scope of the current phase.
I would definitely class it as "new news" if we saw anything more than an overrun distance from Sheet Stores or Trent.

 

[PJM]

Are we sure that's electrification. They look like Pway setting out pegs, and one photo conveniently has a pway hand tool in it.

The quantity, spacing and markings look very much like electrification mast markers to me.

 

[59CosG95]

I've seen letters from NR (probably to planning authorities) that describe this phase as being Syston to Trent/Sheet Stores junctions.
So unless somebody jumps in to correct me, my assumption is that Sheet Stores is within the scope of the current phase.
I would definitely class it as "new news" if we saw anything more than an overrun distance from Sheet Stores or Trent.

100% with you on that one.

My suspicions are that Trent to Nottingham will probably get wired before/after Trent to Derby, such that London - Sheffield services are maintained (via the Erewash Valley). I suspect East Midlands Parkway will come in very useful indeed...

The quantity, spacing and markings look very much like electrification mast markers to me.

My thoughts too. I definitely saw kilometrages written on the pegs, but sadly I'd picked up too much speed to see what they were. AFAIK P-Way still works in miles, chains & yards.

 

[YorkshireBear]

My thoughts too. I definitely saw kilometrages written on the pegs, but sadly I'd picked up too much speed to see what they were. AFAIK P-Way still works in miles, chains & yards.

Yeah agreed now, was just checking mainly from a fear we would all be disappointed.

 

[Meerkat]

How much would this pegging out work be costing - could it be 'hidden' in general budgets maybe with some price cutting contributions by contractors?
With the aim that they are much nearer shovel ready, and with a more confident cost estimate, when the policy makers are deciding on priorities for any budget they have at hand?

 

[Ploughman]

As someone who has planted many a peg in the ground.
PW normally Renewals usually plant pegs only when working on a single line or where the 6ft is over about 4m.
All transfer levels and 6ft dimensions will normally be chalked up in the web of the 6ft rail alongside.
Why use the opposite track? It reduces the risk of staff kicking pegs or being hit by Diggers.

Sometimes when both tracks are to be renewed within a very short period then pegs may be installed as a back up.
Also where a feature such as a new IBJ or Drainage catch pit is to be installed then a peg may be used to locate it.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Someone was saying earlier that the pegs are to do with walkouts which is associated with the design process entering the detailed stages. Is the correct at all?

 

[Bald Rick]

How much would this pegging out work be costing - could it be 'hidden' in general budgets maybe with some price cutting contributions by contractors?

It’s all part of the development process, and covered by the budget for that. It is not part of the implementation. Although obviously enables implementation.

 

[59CosG95]

It’s all part of the development process, and covered by the budget for that. It is not part of the implementation. Although obviously enables implementation.

By and large, most of the pegs are where the masts will be too. Certainly there was very little change from peg to pile between Kettering & Wigston.

 

[edwin_m]

By and large, most of the pegs are where the masts will be too. Certainly there was very little change from peg to pile between Kettering & Wigston.

They don't have approval for installation and by the time they do, most of the pegs have probably disappeared anyway. So they must be the result of some desktop design exercise proposing mast positions, which are then pegged out for someone to do an assessment on site of whether there are any factors not evident on the drawings that might make a position unsuitable. Would this include geophysics or even trial pits to look for signalling cables etc, bearing in mind that Leicester to about Hathern was last re-signalled in the 1980s so records may be sketchy?

 

[PJM]

They don't have approval for installation and by the time they do, most of the pegs have probably disappeared anyway. So they must be the result of some desktop design exercise proposing mast positions, which are then pegged out for someone to do an assessment on site of whether there are any factors not evident on the drawings that might make a position unsuitable. Would this include geophysics or even trial pits to look for signalling cables etc, bearing in mind that Leicester to about Hathern was last re-signalled in the 1980s so records may be sketchy?

However, this is exactly what happened Market Harborough to South Wigston. No announcements but sticks, followed shortly after, by piles. We shall see.

 

[londonmidland]

Does anyone know if there have been any pegs placed between Wigston South Jn and Leicester station or do the pegs start at Leicester station, with them continuing northwards sporadically?

 

[Topological]

Does anyone know if there have been any pegs placed between Wigston South Jn and Leicester station or do the pegs start at Leicester station, with them continuing northwards sporadically?

Some pegs reported near Welford Road earlier in the thread:

Happened to walk over the Welford Road overbridge a little south of LEI today and there were a couple of wooden pegs in the ground by the tracks (see attached photo). Not sure whether it’s electrification-based. If they are pile locations they seem badly placed though, they seem to be in positions that would obstruct future four-tracking, which I’m fairly sure Network Rail is planning for. View attachment 170018

 

[Ploughman]

They don't have approval for installation and by the time they do, most of the pegs have probably disappeared anyway. So they must be the result of some desktop design exercise proposing mast positions, which are then pegged out for someone to do an assessment on site of whether there are any factors not evident on the drawings that might make a position unsuitable. Would this include geophysics or even trial pits to look for signalling cables etc, bearing in mind that Leicester to about Hathern was last re-signalled in the 1980s so records may be sketchy?

Peg installation is of temporary standard, no design scheme as you will be working too the main vertical and horizontal alignment schemes.
You will have a list of all the lifts and slews at each survey point, typically every 10m.
A finished peg alignment scheme normally aims for a constant offset with maybe 2000mm backedge of rail to nail on the peg.
Taking into account required slew pegs are hammered into the ballast.
Vertical lifts are added / subtracted from / to the recorded figure between the peg and rail.

Back edge may be changed for running edge but the principal is the same.
BE Is preferred on site as easier to hold a tape across.

A CAT scan should have been caried out and allowances for results taken into account.

 

[edwin_m]

Peg installation is of temporary standard, no design scheme as you will be working too the main vertical and horizontal alignment schemes.
You will have a list of all the lifts and slews at each survey point, typically every 10m.
A finished peg alignment scheme normally aims for a constant offset with maybe 2000mm backedge of rail to nail on the peg.
Taking into account required slew pegs are hammered into the ballast.
Vertical lifts are added / subtracted from / to the recorded figure between the peg and rail.

Back edge may be changed for running edge but the principal is the same.
BE Is preferred on site as easier to hold a tape across.

This looks to be about pegs for track alignment, but haven't we concluded these ones are probably definitely for OLE?

 

[59CosG95]

Peg installation is of temporary standard, no design scheme as you will be working too the main vertical and horizontal alignment schemes.
You will have a list of all the lifts and slews at each survey point, typically every 10m.
A finished peg alignment scheme normally aims for a constant offset with maybe 2000mm backedge of rail to nail on the peg.
Taking into account required slew pegs are hammered into the ballast.
Vertical lifts are added / subtracted from / to the recorded figure between the peg and rail.

Back edge may be changed for running edge but the principal is the same.
BE Is preferred on site as easier to hold a tape across.

A CAT scan should have been caried out and allowances for results taken into account.

From my sights, the pegs I've seen have often been spotted around 50-75m apart, and surrounded by ground that's been disturbed.
From on-site experience, a 1mx1mx1m (1m³) trial hole is normally sufficient from a geological perspective for OLE foundations. These would not have been dug without a prior CAT scan having taken place.

Total-station laser surveys (point clouds or similar) would have been undertaken as well, especially as most railway survey projects follow a "snake grid" (offset from OSGB). These would then inform the design team of the running edge to centre of foundation distance (RECOF), at least at the outline stage; further refinements would of course happen.

 

[PJM]

Does anyone know if there have been any pegs placed between Wigston South Jn and Leicester station or do the pegs start at Leicester station, with them continuing northwards sporadically?

Yes, they start south of the South Wigston sub station and continue intermittently to Leicester station. Then as reported various stretches all the way to Sheet Stores.

 

[Mikey C]

I really do feel this is an enthusiasts fantasy view. On a positive side electrification can be touted as "investing in your area". But for the few voters who will actually use the trains what do they get? New trains? In reality no as they get them anyway and before the electrification. Perception may be blurred on this nuance though. Faster journeys? No. More seats? Yes (I think), but see answer about new trains.
How many votes will this swing compared to state of personal finances, the schools and health provision? I guess each person will have their own thoughts there.

There's also the environmental "tick". When Labour is introducing incredibly tough rules on phasing out fossil fuel use elsewhere, it would look ludicrous to say that diesel use on the MML north of Leicester was fine.

Indeed I can imagine Labour in those areas losing votes to the Greens if they cancelled the MML electrification programme. Not enough for the Greens to win the seats, but enough to let the Tories back in.

 

[QSK19]

Cynically, my view is that the bi-modes have done for the MML as far as completing electrification is concerned. I'm pretty sure the resources involved will be moved to another area (probably somewhere on the Northern/TPE routes, maybe Sheffield to Leeds or something like that) where there's a prospect of running at least some all-electric services and ditching some DMUs, and that much of the preparation we're seeing now will be wasted. It will be billed as a pause but actually amount to effective cancellation.

I really hope I'm proved wrong, but history has made me expect the worst!

I also agree that the bi-modes may very well have killed off electrification; and also, with electrification happening everywhere else (ok not literally; but my sentiment is clear), by keeping some lines non-electrified, surplus DMUs will have somewhere to be dumped (without straying into speculation, 19x could be contenders to replace the Regional fleet once the 170s are life-expired and Northern & WMT have moved to electric or bi-more stock).

Finally, electrifying the MML would not sway my vote - Labour are an absolute joke and I wouldn’t vote for them even if they give me a million quid.

Also, when you refer to pausing and cancellation… maybe Graying defects to Labour, returns to the Commons in a safe seat and becomes Transport Secretary again so he can do the deed a second time

 

[CdBrux]

There's also the environmental "tick". When Labour is introducing incredibly tough rules on phasing out fossil fuel use elsewhere, it would look ludicrous to say that diesel use on the MML north of Leicester was fine.

The ludicrousness of trains still using diesel beyond 2030 (or whenever the date for cars now is) will be the least of their ludicrousness issues with that (and probably other energy) policy!

 

[Peter Sarf]

Cynically, my view is that the bi-modes have done for the MML as far as completing electrification is concerned. I'm pretty sure the resources involved will be moved to another area (probably somewhere on the Northern/TPE routes, maybe Sheffield to Leeds or something like that) where there's a prospect of running at least some all-electric services and ditching some DMUs, and that much of the preparation we're seeing now will be wasted. It will be billed as a pause but actually amount to effective cancellation.

I really hope I'm proved wrong, but history has made me expect the worst!

All those surplus EMUs that could have been used on more urban areas. Instead we part electrify a mainline and buy expensive new Bi-Modes.

But I suppose the 222s might have been coming up for replacement ?. Now so much of the MML has been electrified I would hope it would be completed - but I am not holding my breath.

There's also the environmental "tick". When Labour is introducing incredibly tough rules on phasing out fossil fuel use elsewhere, it would look ludicrous to say that diesel use on the MML north of Leicester was fine.

Indeed I can imagine Labour in those areas losing votes to the Greens if they cancelled the MML electrification programme. Not enough for the Greens to win the seats, but enough to let the Tories back in.

I think it is risky examining the environment tick possibility for lesser used lines.

A Labour failure more likely lets Reform in than gives the Tories a second chance I think.

The ludicrousness of trains still using diesel beyond 2030 (or whenever the date for cars now is) will be the least of their ludicrousness issues with that (and probably other energy) policy!

But careful what you wish for. There might end up being diesel lines closed because they are not worth electrifying. Must not lose sight of the fact that, per passenger, a diesel train is less polluting than an ICE car anyway.

A main line like the Midland Main Line must have a far better case for electrification than rural diesel lines.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

But careful what you wish for. There might end up being diesel lines closed because they are not worth electrifying. Must not lose sight of the fact that, per passenger, a diesel train is less polluting than an ICE car anyway.

That depends very much on how many passengers are in the train and in the car.